Calling the WAAAAAAAAAUGH!!!

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**Nagashek**

Everyone at the LGS keeps saying that the WAAAUGH! can not be called in round one, but I can't find this in the army book, nor can my orc playing friend (and why should he look too closely?). Is this simply a relic from the 6e army book that no one noticed had been removed, or is it there and we just can't find it?

**Lehnsherr**

There is nothing in the codex that says you cannot call the WAAAAGH! on turn 1. I think what has happened here is they have taken the 40k rule and applied it to the Fantasy game.

Orks (40k) may not call the WAAAAGH! on turn 1, mostly due to the greater manueverability seen in that game. Orcs (Fantasy) may call the WAAAAAGH! on turn 1, mostly because you will still not get many charges off with it, and in turn might end up losing the bonus altogether if your opponent does not charge you. At least thats my interpretation of why the rules are written as such, but I may be way off with that.

**HawaiiMatt**

You can call it on turn one. It's at the start of any turn. I think Turn 1 falls into the "Any" group.

-Matt

**Nagashek**

Very good, cool. Well, not cool. Still getting charged turn one with frightening regularity, but...

**Janthkin**

Nagashek wrote:Very good, cool. Well, not cool. Still getting charged turn one with frightening regularity, but...

I'd suggest deploying further back, then?

**HawaiiMatt**

Nagashek wrote:Very good, cool. Well, not cool. Still getting charged turn one with frightening regularity, but...

How's that?

It's not the old Grimgor + Gorks Waaagh banner is it?
You know, where you show up to a 1500 point game, only to see Grimgor and 54 black orcs deployed in the center lined up on you.
Turn 1, grimgor Waaaghs +D6", then pops the banner for an 4+3D6" charge, putting 55 badasses in your DZ on turn 1.

Even this the banner, infantry are going to average a 18" charge; with a max charge of 28".

Don't worry about him calling the Waaaagh, worry about him casting the Waaaagh.

-Matt

**Nagashek**

Whole army marches, Waagh turn 1 for up to 6", The Waaagh! spell (for up to 12" more) and the Hand of Gork if need be for another unit in case only one unit gets in. My dwarves set up at the 6" line and he can still usually get his Horde in on turn one. And since I have nothing capable of handling a Biggun Horde that rerolls all misses and ignores my armor, and I never get a chance to properly template it with grudge throwers and cannons, I get chewed up by the Death Star.

He uses a liberal supply of Blorc heros to ensure the waaagh, and night gobbos interspersed in his lines, so even not getting charges is devastating with 9+ fanatics zipping around my lines.

We both continue to be staggered by the people who don't see orcs as an incredibly powerful army book due to 8e. They used to have the harshest miscast chart, now it's the kindest. Plentiful, cheap, s4-5 multi attack blocks of troops... it's crazy. I'm fervently hoping the new orc book is more balanced than the last, but I'm betting it will be nice and power creepy.

**nosferatu1001**

Then refused flank, use terrain to prevent him from hitting you in one go, etc.

O&G ARE hugely powerful, however the 1st turn charge is a one trick pony, and you can mitigate it.

**Nagashek**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Then refused flank, use terrain to prevent him from hitting you in one go, etc.

O&G ARE hugely powerful, however the 1st turn charge is a one trick pony, and you can mitigate it.

Well duh! Of COURSE I should refused flank. That's so painfully obvious that it's insulting you should bring that up! :hastilly scribbles in his note book, mouthing "ref-used fflaank.":

What kind of noob do you take me for?
>.>
<.<

Ahem. Thanks. It is difficult to refused flank a horde army when they are that manuverable and cover so much board space, but really the only think in the list that scares me is the Biggun Horde, so really just one more round to blow it to hell is all I really need.

**HawaiiMatt**

Take a unit of rangers, deploy in the open, 12" in front of the big uns, at a bit of an angle.

Deploy your army ~10" from your table edge putting just over 12" between them and the rest of your army.

He has no way to kill them before the magic phase, so they have bought you the time he needs.
Both the waaaagh spell, and calling in the waaaagh makes you move at the closest enemy you can see, so the big uns, and most likely another unit or two are going into combat with the rangers.

The rangers are going to die, but you're too far for his over-runs to hit anything. Not only that, but the waaagh's (both types) are going to force his units on the outside to bunch up toward the center. You've even got a good chance of getting flanked with the rangers, which is even better, as it would make an overrun go sideways.

Then grudge throw/anvil the hell out of that big scary block.

As long as you have rangers in your normal list, you don't even really have to tailor against him.

Also, D6 waaaagh, 8" march, and 2D6" spell is going to have a tough time covering 24". Are you sure he's not messing something up? He can't use the magic movement banner (+D6") on with the waaaagh spell, because as per the spell, he doesn't count as charging until his 2D6" movement puts him into an enemy.

Hope that helped.

-Matt

**Lexx**

Have you thought about taking an organ gun with your artillery? It can lay down a nice amount of shots to help whittle units like you describe down. The rangers should help alot also.

**Nagashek**

An organ gun? For the 2-10 s5 shots I can pump out, as opposed to the far more accurate 21 potential (and very likely) s4 (or better) wounds on the same unit? Naw, I'll stick with my blame thrower, thanks.

And as for that "difficulty," he rolls very high, with statistacly improbable accuracy. "On average" he shouldn't get to me until rd3 if I set up 6" back. In practice, however...

**Warpsolution**

Then my suggestion is to take any losses due to luck in stride; nothing you can do when Fate spits in yer eye, after all. Try out some of this stuff, and wait for the Law of Averages step in and beat those orcs over the head.

I agree with you, though. In 8th, orcs are doing more than okay. And, for the most part, I'm okay with that- they were absolutely terrible in 7th.

I went to a tournament where one of the rounds involved units claiming objectives inside buildings (each unit could grab one objective from each building, the winner was whoever had more). One game I saw was empire versus orcs. Turn 1, three huge blocks of orcs ran into the three buildings, grabbing three objectives. Then he just sat there. For the whole game.
I hate playing games where a huge, unthinking hammer of an army slowly plows on to victory, and there's nothing to do about it. And the orcs have that in spades.
...or they have a dozen fanatics and the Waaagh! spell...

**Nagashek**

We've played 7 games and he has done this in each. I have watched most of his other games and he has done this in all of them as well. He is due for a losing streak that lasts until his death by simultaneous lightning strike and meteor shower.

**Warpsolution**

I guess.

From a purely logical standpoint, I'd just suggest that you ride out this wave, and wait for the dice to do their thing. Same thing I tell people when they say "I don't take X in my army 'cause I always roll bad with it". Just keep on keepin' on.

But then again, dice are imperfect things. Has anyone else tried to play with his dice, or he with other people's? Maybe he's got some wicked air bubbles of Tzeentch in there.

**streamdragon**

Warpsolution wrote:But then again, dice are imperfect things. Has anyone else tried to play with his dice, or he with other people's? Maybe he's got some wicked air bubbles of Tzeentch in there.

I actually make it a point to use the same dice set as my opponent during a game. I find it minimizes issues.

**HawaiiMatt**

Nagashek wrote:Whole army marches, Waagh turn 1 for up to 6", The Waaagh! spell (for up to 12" more) and the Hand of Gork if need be for another unit in case only one unit gets in. My dwarves set up at the 6" line and he can still usually get his Horde in on turn one. And since I have nothing capable of handling a Biggun Horde that rerolls all misses and ignores my armor, and I never get a chance to properly template it with grudge throwers and cannons, I get chewed up by the Death Star.

If you're at the 6" line, he has to cover 30".
D6+8" march+2D6 Waaaagh is only 26" max when rolling all sixes. Without getting both Waaaagh, and the goblin spell off (hand of gork?), it's impossible to reach you; unless something else is being done incorrectly.

Are you playing on a 4' wide table?
Are you using 12" deployment zones?

-Matt

**Warpsolution**

And that's assuming that something juicy enough for him to charge is right across the table.

**Malleus**

Do you have access to a fast cavalry option? I'm not sure of the mechanics of all these charge items, but if you vanguard close enough to the front of him, you can prevent him making that initial march... make him charge you, fail it, cut about six inches off his move distance. Rally them, rinse and repeat as necessary.

**Warpsolution**

(he's playing Dwarfs)

**Red_Zeke**

Man, I wish the gyro had a vanguard move. It totally should...

**nosferatu1001**

Scouting rangers at an angle, as has been suggested. They can certainly force a charge and, angled, will take the block off to one side.