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2021/07/23 15:25:44
Subject: Re:Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
The insults ranged from having older armies having to qoute "Drinking to Bugman in order to get a buff, literally praying to the lady of the lake to get much the same and if I recall... farting if you are a Nurgle player" though that last one I am not sure about. Then again, this is a game where you did have a rule about beard length deciding first turn.
To be fair It would of made for a good weekend launch party, just not for the whole life of the game. It sounds like upper-management trying to create the ultimate corporate end of year party and failing.
A good story I had was from a club owner recounting the days of 6th Edition where he'd set up big campaign days in which sign ups would be completely filled in almost a day. This wasn't free either, you were paying $50 USD to enter this. By 8th edition, he couldn't even get 3. Now you barely even get interest for a AoS campaign let alone a tournament.
Hardly surprising since AOS is so focused on it's ongoing narrative, its actual setting is still really underbaked. Some armies are really lacking flavour or have a glut of special characters where you're almost forced into running them. These sorts of things kill narrative focused campaigns focused around the idea of "your guys."
Nazi punks feth off
2021/07/23 15:31:05
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
I just never saw the ARMY model counts rising. I seriously have dozens of army lists spanning 6th - 8th edition from our players that they submitted that show that the model count stayed similar.
UNIT MODEL count rose. You went from many smaller units to fewer larger units. That was absolutely true, but the overall ARMY model count did not rise drastically unless you were also playing LARGER POINT games.
I'll pull three rosters to demonstrate that were tournament lists from my own:
6th edition 2002 - GT season - my vampire counts are listed as 77 models.
7th edition 2009 - my vampire counts army here is 81 models
8th edition 2012 - my vampire counts army is 74 models.
2013 - our tamurkhan casual campaign - my chaos army has a model count here of 54 models. This again is 8th edition.
2014 - we did a lustria casual campaign. My dark elf army is sitting at 62 models.
I have 67 army rosters in this folder from various players and other than the goblin or skaven players, the count is in the same ballpark.
My Age of Sigmar slaanesh army was 71 models and my khorne army 62 models which has a few more larger models. My AOS nurgle army in 2017 has 83 models.
These numbers are all similar to each other.
That is a mix of competitive stomp your balls lists to casual campaign for fun lists.
Point size matters of course. These were all 2000 points. If your casual game was 2500 points, you would of course have more models.
Players and organizers have the ability to set a points limit that doesn't require a ton of models. Going up to 2500 points IMO is a mistake and just creates this narrative that you need massive armies.
Of course 2500 points would be more of an investment than 2000. And of course being in a group that insisted on 2500 points to play would make the investment and model count required rise. Same as if you were in a group that wanted to always play 3000 point games. But thats not the game enforcing that, thats the individual playgroup wanting to play bigger and bigger games.
I think maybe it comes from your perspective in tournaments, as a casual player, when I started it was exceptionally rare to see two 2000pt armies going at it at the local store or local club. Maybe that was the standard tournament points level back then, I have no idea, but I just rarely saw those sorts of armies fielded.
Even when I finally amassed a large army, I rarely fielded it all at once.
Maybe it was just my local area, but myself and my friends tended to build a armies to 750pts, then 1000pts, then 1500pts, then start a new army
2021/07/23 15:36:09
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
Yeah your group and area will dictate your own experience for sure.
Our casual events always matched tournament standard though - and that wasn't anything I was after it was what the community expected (and some would get VERY cranky if you deviated form that standard).
2021/07/23 15:43:33
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
auticus wrote: Yeah your group and area will dictate your own experience for sure.
Our casual events always matched tournament standard though - and that wasn't anything I was after it was what the community expected (and some would get VERY cranky if you deviated form that standard).
Sounds like a terrible community
I find it interesting you say that given there was no standard size among my friends, I'd usually rock up with 1500pts, but have lists written up at 1000 and 750, some guys went for 1250 for some reason. So I tried to write my lists in such a way that I could get myself to those points values easily. Hell, back when Warhammer Skirmish was a thing I'd occasionally catch up with mates for sub-500pt battles.
But yeah, if people *only* play 2000+pts it would be a nightmare trying to get new players into the game.
"So, just buy a few hundred dollars of models, spend a few hundred hours painting them, then you can come back and play a game with us!"
One hope I have for NewHammer is they make the game scale well to smaller battles.
2021/07/23 15:48:46
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
I find it interesting you say that given there was no standard size among my friends
Internal private groups will always have their own etiquette and expectations.
I think what I'm referring to where people thought the game required huge mounds of models largely comes from many of them not having those private groups that would play those smaller games and they were either public tournament style players or just public random pickup gamers in general - and in the public random pickup game or tournament crowd, those point sizes were usually fixed a lot higher than they needed to be.
I hope the game plays well at smaller points too. For that to happen, they can't have steroid heroes running amuk you can take at 1000 points that single handedly wipe your army out.
And the GW I've known for the past couple decades with the exception of ravening hordes 6th edition LOVES THEM their steroid super heroes owning armies by themselves.
2021/07/23 16:00:57
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
A good story I had was from a club owner recounting the days of 6th Edition where he'd set up big campaign days in which sign ups would be completely filled in almost a day. This wasn't free either, you were paying $50 USD to enter this. By 8th edition, he couldn't even get 3. Now you barely even get interest for a AoS campaign let alone a tournament.
Round here theres a couple stores running AoS tournaments once or twice a month (depending on the store) and getting anywhere between 8 and 16 people showing up per event. One of them has a regular AoS game night that at times pulls in 20-30 people (more often its 6-10). Other stores on the other hand have probably only seen a handful of games of AoS played total over the past 5 years, if any games at all. I really think it just depends on what your local community is like.
You tell a noob to paint 70-90 models and he will give you the finger. That's a given.
I have to agree with BlackoCatto on this one, its kind of a nonsensical argument. 70-90 minis isn't the problem, most 40k players do that, the problem is that you're painting 70-90 or 150 or 300 minis or whatever (depending on who you ask, your army, and the points size) and more than 80% of them are basically identical (and once ranked up can't even really be seen) and serve no purpose other than to be a wound counter. Thats why unit fillers became so popular, because it meant you didn't have to waste money buying and time painting a bunch of minis that only existed for the express purpose of being removed from the table as the unit took damage, as well as giving players an opportunity to build something which providing a cool visual break and an opportunity to flex their creative muscles.
Been there, done that. Promoted several tabletop games a few years ago for twelve months. Nobody wanted to touch a R&F game (in that case 9th Age) because those people shuddered at the thought of promo pics from 8th WHFB which displayed regiments of 40-50 models. Just the thought of a SINGLE regiment of such size turned noobs away. And the newsflash that you could play this game with smaller regiments didn't appeal to them at all due to the Total War video game.
So what games were in their favour?
Rumbleslam, Necromunda, Freebooter's Fate and Blood Bowl. All those games required less than 20 models.
2021/07/23 16:17:50
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
A good story I had was from a club owner recounting the days of 6th Edition where he'd set up big campaign days in which sign ups would be completely filled in almost a day. This wasn't free either, you were paying $50 USD to enter this. By 8th edition, he couldn't even get 3. Now you barely even get interest for a AoS campaign let alone a tournament.
Round here theres a couple stores running AoS tournaments once or twice a month (depending on the store) and getting anywhere between 8 and 16 people showing up per event. One of them has a regular AoS game night that at times pulls in 20-30 people (more often its 6-10). Other stores on the other hand have probably only seen a handful of games of AoS played total over the past 5 years, if any games at all. I really think it just depends on what your local community is like.
You tell a noob to paint 70-90 models and he will give you the finger. That's a given.
I have to agree with BlackoCatto on this one, its kind of a nonsensical argument. 70-90 minis isn't the problem, most 40k players do that, the problem is that you're painting 70-90 or 150 or 300 minis or whatever (depending on who you ask, your army, and the points size) and more than 80% of them are basically identical (and once ranked up can't even really be seen) and serve no purpose other than to be a wound counter. Thats why unit fillers became so popular, because it meant you didn't have to waste money buying and time painting a bunch of minis that only existed for the express purpose of being removed from the table as the unit took damage, as well as giving players an opportunity to build something which providing a cool visual break and an opportunity to flex their creative muscles.
Been there, done that. Promoted several tabletop games a few years ago for twelve months. Nobody wanted to touch a R&F game (in that case 9th Age) because those people shuddered at the thought of promo pics from 8th WHFB which displayed regiments of 40-50 models. Just the thought of a SINGLE regiment of such size turned noobs away. And the newsflash that you could play this game with smaller regiments didn't appeal to them at all due to the Total War video game.
So what games were in their favour?
Rumbleslam, Necromunda, Freebooter's Fate and Blood Bowl. All those games required less than 20 models.
Citation needed ;3
2021/07/23 16:20:26
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
Thats not a "noob" issue, thats a "preference" issue. There are some people who prefer skirmish games, there are others who prefer massed battle games, there are others who like both equally, and sometimes people change (most of my old WHFB play group now only play skirmish game exclusively - despite having previously painted hundreds of minis for WHFB they will now turn their noses up at any game which requires them to paint more than a dozen minis. It happens).
Your problem wasn't "noobs" not wanting to paint tons of models, your problem was the people you were trying to market the game to weren't interested in playing a massed battle game.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2021/07/23 16:34:30
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
chaos0xomega wrote: Thats not a "noob" issue, thats a "preference" issue. There are some people who prefer skirmish games, there are others who prefer massed battle games, there are others who like both equally, and sometimes people change (most of my old WHFB play group now only play skirmish game exclusively - despite having previously painted hundreds of minis for WHFB they will now turn their noses up at any game which requires them to paint more than a dozen minis. It happens).
Your problem wasn't "noobs" not wanting to paint tons of models, your problem was the people you were trying to market the game to weren't interested in playing a massed battle game.
Please send me your noobs who desperately want to play R&F once Covid is over. This must be a special breed indeed. Never seen such creatures in my environment.
2021/07/23 16:36:24
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
chaos0xomega wrote: Thats not a "noob" issue, thats a "preference" issue. There are some people who prefer skirmish games, there are others who prefer massed battle games, there are others who like both equally, and sometimes people change (most of my old WHFB play group now only play skirmish game exclusively - despite having previously painted hundreds of minis for WHFB they will now turn their noses up at any game which requires them to paint more than a dozen minis. It happens).
Your problem wasn't "noobs" not wanting to paint tons of models, your problem was the people you were trying to market the game to weren't interested in playing a massed battle game.
Please send me your noobs who desperately want to play R&F once Covid is over. This must be a special breed indeed. Never seen such creatures in my environment.
I have about 20 people who want and play R&F games and are looking forward to The Old World back in Louisville and here in Arizona there appears to be a solid R&F community as well.
2021/07/23 16:36:33
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
The insults ranged from having older armies having to qoute "Drinking to Bugman in order to get a buff, literally praying to the lady of the lake to get much the same and if I recall... farting if you are a Nurgle player" though that last one I am not sure about. Then again, this is a game where you did have a rule about beard length deciding first turn.
To be fair It would of made for a good weekend launch party, just not for the whole life of the game. It sounds like upper-management trying to create the ultimate corporate end of year party and failing.
"Why is no-one having a good time? I specifically requested it!"
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2021/07/23 17:00:44
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
Kid_Kyoto wrote: The issue of painting ~100 rank and file models is a real one.
Maybe GW will address that by making this a 10mm game to allow for quick painting
I guess GW is going after Kings of War and make a fixed unit size without model removal, so a unit can have from 11-20 models depending how many you want to paint or how well you like the look of those
and to troll Mantic hard, the standard regiment size will be 4 wide as in 6th, so all the units bases from KoW are not compatible with TOW
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2021/07/23 17:10:08
Subject: Re:Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
The insults ranged from having older armies having to qoute "Drinking to Bugman in order to get a buff, literally praying to the lady of the lake to get much the same and if I recall... farting if you are a Nurgle player" though that last one I am not sure about. Then again, this is a game where you did have a rule about beard length deciding first turn.
To be fair It would of made for a good weekend launch party, just not for the whole life of the game. It sounds like upper-management trying to create the ultimate corporate end of year party and failing.
"Why is no-one having a good time? I specifically requested it!"
Why didn't I watch this show before!?
2021/07/23 17:21:53
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
Kid_Kyoto wrote: The issue of painting ~100 rank and file models is a real one.
Maybe GW will address that by making this a 10mm game to allow for quick painting
I guess GW is going after Kings of War and make a fixed unit size without model removal, so a unit can have from 11-20 models depending how many you want to paint or how well you like the look of those
and to troll Mantic hard, the standard regiment size will be 4 wide as in 6th, so all the units bases from KoW are not compatible with TOW
Honestly I hope they do fixed unit sizes without model removal.
It would allow people to use circular bases and so have that cross pollination between games and there's also 0 reason why a game like Fantasy needs to be on an individual model to model basis anyway. It brings nothing to the game and is practically meaningless.
Like, while I enjoy the flavour of old Warhammer and will always love 6th, it's going to be rough to go back to some of the mechanics after KoW.
Nazi punks feth off
2021/07/23 17:35:48
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
Honestly I hope they do fixed unit sizes without model removal.
If they did this, I'd see very little reason to not keep playing 8th ed and I think they'd be even less likely in pulling players away from KoW.
If people want to play KoW, they'll just keep playing KoW.
It would allow people to use circular bases and so have that cross pollination between games and there's also 0 reason why a game like Fantasy needs to be on an individual model to model basis anyway. It brings nothing to the game and is practically meaningless.
That's, like, your opinion, [vocative of choice]. When I played Kings of War, never removing models felt more game-y and abstracted. I didn't get a sense of the ebb and flow of battle, it was just tallies being marked. There was no physical representation of the wounded, the fleeing, or the surrendered. Just... blocks of soldiers that were blocks of soldiers until they disappeared.
You can still use circle bases in warhammer if you use movement trays that are rectangular. I have seen and played with armies like that even 20 years ago where people were using non-gw models on circles.
2021/07/23 17:52:14
Subject: Re:Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
Funnily one important aspect has so far been neglected in this discussion: Price.
How expensive are ten Witch Elves again? Oh, only 40 Euros?! That's quite a bargain when you consider that you need a lot of them to fill up your regiments. However lets really milk our customers this time. That will mean we are charging 60 Euros for five Witch Elves. As compensation we provide bigger tactical stones from which these damsels are jumping from. The message between the lines is that you need cojones the size of rocks to enter this new game...
2021/07/23 17:54:20
Subject: Re:Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
Strg Alt wrote: Funnily one important aspect has so far been neglected in this discussion: Price.
How expensive are ten Witch Elves again? Oh, only 40 Euros?! That's quite a bargain when you consider that you need a lot of them to fill up your regiments. However lets really milk our customers this time. That will mean we are charging 60 Euros for five Witch Elves. As compensation we provide bigger tactical stones from which these damsels are jumping from. The message between the lines is that you need cojones the size of rocks to enter this new game...
Yeah, that's what killed Fantasy, really. If you already had an army it wasn't too bad, but good luck getting new players interested when they had to blow 100 on 5 blood knights or something like 80 on a unit of greatswords large enough to be effective with the steadfast rules.
Same reason why Sisters didn't have that many players - in addition to the outdated rules starting an army was bloody expensive as everything was metal and came in small groups.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 17:55:42
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2021/07/23 18:06:58
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
But that hasn't stopped AOS players from buying fairly large regiments of 15-20 models.
There's mathematically not a difference from (theoretically):
Buying 3 regiments of 15-20 of something.
Buying 1 megablob stead fast unit of 45-60 models.
It costs the same. The difference is you have 3 smaller regiments vs 1 megablob steadfast.
I hope steadfast is employed in the new game only with ways to counter it (like flanking removes it) to keep people from going all in with these 60-100 model units that they were doing in 8th.
The major theme of complaint seems to be (and I agree) not on army model count but on having to buy a ton of models for a single unit to min/max the steadfast rule.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 18:18:14
2021/07/23 18:20:51
Subject: Re:Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
Strg Alt wrote: Funnily one important aspect has so far been neglected in this discussion: Price.
How expensive are ten Witch Elves again? Oh, only 40 Euros?! That's quite a bargain when you consider that you need a lot of them to fill up your regiments. However lets really milk our customers this time. That will mean we are charging 60 Euros for five Witch Elves. As compensation we provide bigger tactical stones from which these damsels are jumping from. The message between the lines is that you need cojones the size of rocks to enter this new game...
Really the thing about Fantasy is that people LIKE large blocks of marching infantry. That's a large part of the appeal. What matters is other avenues to get that ball rolling like support for smaller games, start collecting, etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 18:21:08
2021/07/23 18:27:49
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
auticus wrote: Not arguing the prices are stupid. They are.
But that hasn't stopped AOS players from buying fairly large regiments of 15-20 models.
There's mathematically not a difference from (theoretically):
Buying 3 regiments of 15-20 of something.
Buying 1 megablob stead fast unit of 45-60 models.
It costs the same. The difference is you have 3 smaller regiments vs 1 megablob steadfast.
I hope steadfast is employed in the new game only with ways to counter it (like flanking removes it) to keep people from going all in with these 60-100 model units that they were doing in 8th.
The major theme of complaint seems to be (and I agree) not on army model count but on having to buy a ton of models for a single unit to min/max the steadfast rule.
I agree the prices are ridiculous but is hasn't stopped AOS or 40k, just as you've pointed out. The barrier to entry is no different.
I don't understand how people can blow 100-200$ on a centerpeice/flyer/tank, either, yet here we are.
Old World Prediction: The Empire will have stupid Clockwork Paragon Warsuits and Mecha Horses
2021/07/23 18:32:32
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
main difference between than and now is the support GW has and the "feeling" that they care for the community
this is all the difference it takes
and large R&F armies are cool, there is a reason why Napoleonics are among the most popular settings out there
large regiments of models in Rank and File, all with nice and colorful uniforms and a lot of background to dig in and make the one commander of your army something special
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2021/07/23 18:43:58
Subject: Re:Warhammer The Old World : Square bases and 28mm scale, page 103
Strg Alt wrote: Funnily one important aspect has so far been neglected in this discussion: Price.
How expensive are ten Witch Elves again? Oh, only 40 Euros?! That's quite a bargain when you consider that you need a lot of them to fill up your regiments. However lets really milk our customers this time. That will mean we are charging 60 Euros for five Witch Elves. As compensation we provide bigger tactical stones from which these damsels are jumping from. The message between the lines is that you need cojones the size of rocks to enter this new game...
I have to admit I’m surprised just how little everyone is discussing the pricing. To me, that was always the biggest barrier to entry for new players, and one of the most influential reasons for Grognards to leave the “GW hobby”.
The prices have still been going up since the Olde World died, right?
Strg Alt wrote: Funnily one important aspect has so far been neglected in this discussion: Price.
How expensive are ten Witch Elves again? Oh, only 40 Euros?! That's quite a bargain when you consider that you need a lot of them to fill up your regiments. However lets really milk our customers this time. That will mean we are charging 60 Euros for five Witch Elves. As compensation we provide bigger tactical stones from which these damsels are jumping from. The message between the lines is that you need cojones the size of rocks to enter this new game...
Really the thing about Fantasy is that people LIKE large blocks of marching infantry. That's a large part of the appeal. What matters is other avenues to get that ball rolling like support for smaller games, start collecting, etc.
I think there's a sweet spot to unit size, though. Like this:
To me that's a perfectly fine formation and reads as a 'regiment', but it's only 12 models on 25mm bases. In the days of 4-models-per-rank you'd commonly see units of 12-20 depending on their eliteness.
Then the frontage requirement became 5 and you started seeing 15 as the bare minimum, 20 more common, and often 5x5 blocks of 25. Then the deathball tactics promoted units of 30 or even 40.
Gameplay aside, from a purely aesthetic/collecting/painting perspective I feel I got more value out of two units of 5x4 than one giant unit of 8x5. Less of the unit is filler stuck in the middle, and functionally I have two units instead of one.
YMMV, but I never particularly felt like I needed enormous units to get that rank-and-flank feel. A standard unit size of 4x4 would be just fine with me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 18:48:01
auticus wrote: Not arguing the prices are stupid. They are.
But that hasn't stopped AOS players from buying fairly large regiments of 15-20 models.
There's mathematically not a difference from (theoretically):
Buying 3 regiments of 15-20 of something.
Buying 1 megablob stead fast unit of 45-60 models.
It costs the same. The difference is you have 3 smaller regiments vs 1 megablob steadfast.
I hope steadfast is employed in the new game only with ways to counter it (like flanking removes it) to keep people from going all in with these 60-100 model units that they were doing in 8th.
The major theme of complaint seems to be (and I agree) not on army model count but on having to buy a ton of models for a single unit to min/max the steadfast rule.
I agree the prices are ridiculous but is hasn't stopped AOS or 40k, just as you've pointed out. The barrier to entry is no different.
I don't understand how people can blow 100-200$ on a centerpeice/flyer/tank, either, yet here we are.
Easy to answer. The single, large model can be painted in about two weekend sessions. However the equivalent amount of infantry takes way more time and effort to complete. It's just an intimidating task which sucks the joy out of most people.
So you go for the Baneblade instead of the cannon fodder.
~4100
~1660
