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So I was in a game and a question came up, and it still does not seem clear.

The Impaler Cannon says that: The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the hive guard.

I take this to mean that if a unit is in, or touching cover, the cover must be in between the unit and the hive guard for the unit to get a cover save.

Example: Unit A is on the north edge of a forest area terrain piece. The south edge of the bases are touching the terrain, but the hive guard are north of unit A. In this case the unit would normally get a save, but the Impaler cannon disallows this save, since they are in/touching cover.

Is this correct?

Also The Impaler Cannon only disallows a cover save in the above circumstance, and models completely out of LoS would Clain a cover save as normal, since the above only disallows cover saves for models that are in or touching cover in the above circumstance.

Thoughts?

Being in area terrain gives a save against impaler cannons.

Being in contact with a piece of terrain that's between the target and the firing Hive Guard gives a save against impaler cannons.

It's poorly worded, and should be parsed as-
The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the hive guard.

I agree it is poorly worded.

How about models that are out of sight behind a building, they can still get a cover save if I am reading it correctly.

Since they are neither in or touching the building the Impaler cannons statement about cover has no effect on models completely out of LoS.

Since I do not see anywhere in the Tyranid book that disallows normal cover saves (Just cover saves for units that are in or touching cover that is not between them and the guard unit)

From Units partially in cover, page 22: "Models that are completely out of sight are considered to be in cover for this purpose." This's where the cover save for being out of line of sight comes from, a statement which classifies that as 'cover'.

Thus, the Impaler Cannon denies them the benefit of being in "out of line of sight" cover because it's not between them and the hive guard.

If half the models are *touching* the building, they will get cover from the Hive Guard, but if less than half or none of the models are touching the building then they get no cover.

willydstyle wrote:If half the models are *touching* the building, they will get cover from the Hive Guard, but if less than half or none of the models are touching the building then they get no cover.

Maybe I misunderstood, let me try again below.

solkan wrote:From Units partially in cover, page 22: "Models that are completely out of sight are considered to be in cover for this purpose." This's where the cover save for being out of line of sight comes from, a statement which classifies that as 'cover'.

Thus, the Impaler Cannon denies them the benefit of being in "out of line of sight" cover because it's not between them and the hive guard.

'Models that are completely out of sight are considered to be in cover' okay that helps.

Scenario:
Marines are on the south side of a building, and a unit of Hive guard are on the north side of the same building. The marines are not in LoS at all, but not touching the building, they still get a cover save, since they are considered to be in cover and this cover would be between them and the hive guard?

Your original interpretation of the rule is incorrect. Being in or touching cover that lies between the HG and the target is the only way for the target to gain cover. If cover is simply in between the HG and the target, even if the target is completely out of line of sight, they do not get a cover save.

Okay maybe you misunderstood me then Willydstyle, I was saying that if there is terrain between the Hive guard and the marines and the marines were out of LoS, they would get a cover save in that situation, since it only Disallows a cover save when you are in or touching cover and the cover is not between the marines and the hive guard.

since it says 'The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the hive guard.'

so if they were in or touching cover, that cover would need to be between the marines and the hive guard, if the marines were out of LoS, the cover would of course be between them and they would get a cover save.

Guys, I don't think you're getting what DeathReaper is getting at.

He's pointing out that models who are out of line of sight count as being 'in cover' and being 'in cover' is one of the two situations in which the Impaler Cannon does NOT ignore cover.


DeathReaper, I do think that you are technically correct, but the problem is, there is two ways that the concept of 'in cover' can be used by the authors:

1) The model is physically 'in' a piece of terrain on the table.
2) The model counts as being 'in' cover (which can happen from a variety of factors).


While you are correct, I think that if you were to read the rules to a bunch of gamers and take a poll a vast majority would interpret the Impaler Cannon exception to only apply to #1 above (when the model is actually physically in a piece of terrain on the table).

I also think that, based on the description of how the Impaler works, that the author almost certainly meant this as well. He definitely should have wrote that a target of the Impaler Cannon: 'can only count the benefits of cover they are physically in or touching if it lies between them and the Hive Guard'.

At the end of the day I think this falls into the category of things that are correct by the hard line reading of the rule, but are generally accepted to be different by the vast majority of people playing and therefore end up with the 'wrong' way being the 'right' way to play.

I would like to point out that a space marine's power armor 3+ save is better than the 4+ they would claim in such a circumstance.

On the other hand, a landspeeder or rhino would dearly need said cover save, or otherwise risk a much higher chance of destruction. Always butt-up against trees/walls/rocks/buildings when a tyranid with an impaler cannon is on the board. If you're touching it and obscured/out of LOS, we've always played it as a cover save. If you're not touching, even by a half inch, then the impaler cannon considers your vehicle to be in the open.

Boom goes the dynamite.

tetrisphreak wrote:I would like to point out that a space marine's power armor 3+ save is better than the 4+ they would claim in such a circumstance.

On the other hand, a landspeeder or rhino would dearly need said cover save, or otherwise risk a much higher chance of destruction. Always butt-up against trees/walls/rocks/buildings when a tyranid with an impaler cannon is on the board. If you're touching it and obscured/out of LOS, we've always played it as a cover save. If you're not touching, even by a half inch, then the impaler cannon considers your vehicle to be in the open.

Boom goes the dynamite.

I know marines in power armor have a 3+ armor save, but power armor was not mentioned, only Marines.

and it seems to me that you do not need to butt up against trees/walls/rocks/buildings when a tyranid with an impaler cannon is on the board, if the vehicle is out of LoS

Since the impaler cannon only mentions disallowing cover for models in/touching terrain that is not between them and the hive guard with impaler cannons.

See underlined in what yak wrote.

yakface wrote:
Guys, I don't think you're getting what DeathReaper is getting at.

He's pointing out that models who are out of line of sight count as being 'in cover' and being 'in cover' is one of the two situations in which the Impaler Cannon does NOT ignore cover...

First off, please let me say that I am a tyranid player. They are my first army and most beloved. I am also an avid tournament player and do relatively well when I can find the time and money to attend them.

I have noticed a large amount of misunderstanding concerning the notion that hive guard guns have the ability to disallow cover saves.

The rule states;

The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the hive guard.

Please let me break it down.

The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching ------------------- if ------------------- it lies between them and the hive guard.

What the rule says is one thing, and one thing only. That is, that a unit in cover or touching cover, may only gain a cover save IF it (the cover the unit is in or touching, not the unit) lies between them and the hive guard.

Intervening terrain is never mentioned. Therefore you would receive a cover save. Intervening units are never mentioned, therefore you would receive a cover save. The only terrain mentioned, is any cover that the unit being fired upon is in or touching. That is all. On top of that, that terrain specifically mentioned in the rule, would not grant a cover save only in the highly unlikely event that that cover that they are in or touching, does not lie between them and the hive guard.

In summary, as much as I would like for them to negate all kinds of cover magically, they do not, and i have never played them that way. In fact I go through this every single game it seems on the tourney circuit because of the misunderstanding of the wording of the rule.

Please take a moment to read it carefully, and I humbly and siincerely believe you will reach the same conclusion.

Thank you for your time.

Alternately, of course, the sentence parses as-
The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in.
The target can only count the benefits of cover they are touching if it lies between them and the hive guard.

The Impaler Cannon's rules for cover are more specific than those in the BRB, and so they override the BRB and only these types of cover are valid against Impaler Cannon shots.

perrin23860 wrote:First off, please let me say that I am a tyranid player. They are my first army and most beloved. I am also an avid tournament player and do relatively well when I can find the time and money to attend them.

I have noticed a large amount of misunderstanding concerning the notion that hive guard guns have the ability to disallow cover saves.

The rule states;

The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the hive guard.

Please let me break it down.

The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching ------------------- if ------------------- it lies between them and the hive guard.

What the rule says is one thing, and one thing only. That is, that a unit in cover or touching cover, may only gain a cover save IF it (the cover the unit is in or touching, not the unit) lies between them and the hive guard.

Intervening terrain is never mentioned. Therefore you would receive a cover save. Intervening units are never mentioned, therefore you would receive a cover save. The only terrain mentioned, is any cover that the unit being fired upon is in or touching. That is all. On top of that, that terrain specifically mentioned in the rule, would not grant a cover save only in the highly unlikely event that that cover that they are in or touching, does not lie between them and the hive guard.

In summary, as much as I would like for them to negate all kinds of cover magically, they do not, and i have never played them that way. In fact I go through this every single game it seems on the tourney circuit because of the misunderstanding of the wording of the rule.

Please take a moment to read it carefully, and I humbly and siincerely believe you will reach the same conclusion.

Thank you for your time.

So basically you're saying the Impaler Cannon's rule is, for all intents and purposes, meaningless, correct?

You do understand there's two ways that people can interpret that sentence (as forkbanger pointed out above), right?

And you honestly believe that the interpretation that ignores the description of what the Impaler Cannon does and makes the rule effectively meaningless is the correct way to play?

Fascinating.


I think its time for a poll...

Ok, Ok, I'm man enough to admit that both myself and my entire local gaming group never caught that second interpretation.

I also admit it makes the impaler cannon rules make sense to me, finally.

One other thing I'd point out though, is that no judge or other player I've run into in 4 tourneys in the last year have been able to give an explanation to me or others I game with that was as succinct and correct as the above posts.

Thank you. Humble apologies...