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2014/09/20 13:22:44
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
I applaud those who are willing to stand up for their rights rather then roll over and die. This is how democracy will continue to thrive in the world.
RoperPG wrote: Blimey, it's very salty in here...
Any more vegans want to put forth their opinions on bacon?
2014/09/20 14:14:10
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Let me amend that: Putin is quick to deny that he's rebuilding the 'Soviet Union' but also quick to glorify it and propose plans to get back to that state. He brought back the red star, and hammer and sickle, as symbols of the 'Russian Federation'.
Putin didn't, the Russian people did. Putin only made it official. Hell, even today there is plenty of people that do not even know the Russian anthem and continue to sing the Soviet one.
BaronIveagh wrote:He promised, in a 2012 speech that Moscow would become a 'new axis of influence' in the world
"It is my deep conviction that the dissolution of the Soviet Union was a national tragedy on a massive scale. I think the ordinary citizens of the former Soviet Union and the citizens in the post-Soviet space, the CIS countries, have gained nothing from it. On the contrary, people have been faced with a host of problems."
"Our objectives on the international stage are very clear – to ensure the security of our borders and create favourable external conditions for the resolution of our domestic problems. " (Italics mine)
"We plan to go beyond that, and set ourselves an ambitious goal of reaching a higher level of integration – a Eurasian Union.
How do we understand the prospects for this project? What shape will it take?
First, none of this entails any kind of revival of the Soviet Union. It would be naïve to try to revive or emulate something that has been consigned to history. But these times call for close integration based on new values and a new political and economic foundation.
We suggest a powerful supranational association capable of becoming one of the poles in the modern world and serving as an efficient bridge between Europe and the dynamic Asia-Pacific region."
And how does that make him want to bring back Soviet Union?
Let me amend that: Putin is quick to deny that he's rebuilding the 'Soviet Union' but also quick to glorify it and propose plans to get back to that state. He brought back the red star, and hammer and sickle, as symbols of the 'Russian Federation'. He promised, in a 2012 speech that Moscow would become a 'new axis of influence' in the world
"It is my deep conviction that the dissolution of the Soviet Union was a national tragedy on a massive scale. I think the ordinary citizens of the former Soviet Union and the citizens in the post-Soviet space, the CIS countries, have gained nothing from it. On the contrary, people have been faced with a host of problems."
"Our objectives on the international stage are very clear – to ensure the security of our borders and create favourable external conditions for the resolution of our domestic problems. " (Italics mine)
He seems to forget that the USSR dissolved because the countries which made it up voted for independence.
It was far more complicated than that.
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2014/09/20 14:20:10
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
I applaud those who are willing to stand up for their rights rather then roll over and die. This is how democracy will continue to thrive in the world.
Yes, glory to the people of Donetsk and Luhansk who refused to bow down and submit to an unlawful coup-imposed regime that trampled their rights.
Glad that Americans can see it too
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2014/09/20 15:48:59
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
I applaud those who are willing to stand up for their rights rather then roll over and die. This is how democracy will continue to thrive in the world.
Yes, glory to the people of Donetsk and Luhansk who refused to bow down and submit to an unlawful coup-imposed regime that trampled their rights.
Glad that Americans can see it too
Too bad that the people of Donetsk and Luhansk had to flee or hide in their cellars while terrorists, mercenaries and russian soldiers fight the democratically elected government of Ukraine. And all that just to keep one utterly forgettable little man and his cronies in power a little bit longer. Disgusting.
2014/09/20 16:33:18
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
I applaud those who are willing to stand up for their rights rather then roll over and die. This is how democracy will continue to thrive in the world.
Yes, glory to the people of Donetsk and Luhansk who refused to bow down and submit to an unlawful coup-imposed regime that trampled their rights.
Glad that Americans can see it too
Too bad that the people of Donetsk and Luhansk had to flee or hide in their cellars while terrorists, mercenaries and russian soldiers fight the democratically elected government of Ukraine. And all that just to keep one utterly forgettable little man and his cronies in power a little bit longer. Disgusting.
That's historical revisionism. When the rebellion started, the government in charge at the time WAS an illegal regime imposed via a revolution. It was only after several months of fighting that elections were held.
2014/09/20 17:01:28
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
But would a now democraticly elected government be legal. As I see it, it's about as legal as the American, or, for the sake of the argument, Russian government,
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2014/09/20 17:12:07
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Co'tor Shas wrote: But would a now democraticly elected government be legal. As I see it, it's about as legal as the American, or, for the sake of the argument, Russian government,
Yes. Assuming the elections were fair and legitimate.
2014/09/20 18:39:04
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Co'tor Shas wrote: But would a now democraticly elected government be legal. As I see it, it's about as legal as the American, or, for the sake of the argument, Russian government,
Yes. Assuming the elections were fair and legitimate.
Which they weren't as the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, were a large part of Ukrainian people lives, were only barely able to vote.
I applaud those who are willing to stand up for their rights rather then roll over and die. This is how democracy will continue to thrive in the world.
Yes, glory to the people of Donetsk and Luhansk who refused to bow down and submit to an unlawful coup-imposed regime that trampled their rights.
Glad that Americans can see it too
terrorists, mercenaries and russian soldiers
Clearly you mean: defected Ukrainian soldiers, angry locals, Crimeans, Cossacks and foreign volunteers?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/20 18:42:25
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2014/09/20 18:49:52
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
And yet, at the end of the day, how many countries voted to keep the USSR?
To say that "The USSR collapsed because the Warsaw Pact countries voted to leave" is a gross simplification. Economic stagnation and political infighting left the USSR weak and vulnerable, and the WP countries / East Berlin seized the opportunity break away.
If those countries had tried to break away during the height of the USSR's power, they would have been crushed (as indeed some countries were).
2014/09/20 19:20:40
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Co'tor Shas wrote: But would a now democraticly elected government be legal. As I see it, it's about as legal as the American, or, for the sake of the argument, Russian government,
Yes. Assuming the elections were fair and legitimate.
Which they weren't as the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, were a large part of Ukrainian people lives, were only barely able to vote.
Have a source for that?
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2014/09/20 19:56:04
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
And yet, at the end of the day, how many countries voted to keep the USSR?
To say that "The USSR collapsed because the Warsaw Pact countries voted to leave" is a gross simplification. Economic stagnation and political infighting left the USSR weak and vulnerable, and the WP countries / East Berlin seized the opportunity break away.
If those countries had tried to break away during the height of the USSR's power, they would have been crushed (as indeed some countries were).
Except in that case I wasn't talking about the warsaw pact countries but actually countries like Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan etc.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2014/09/20 20:25:03
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Which they weren't as the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, were a large part of Ukrainian people lives, were only barely able to vote.
yes, and only for the approved candidates. After all, the leaders the separatists had chosen were obviously inferior and replaced by glorious former FSB agents at the order of Moscow back in August.
You might also want to check your population maps and demographics, though your definition of 'large' may be more fluid than mine.
Clearly you mean: defected Ukrainian soldiers, angry locals, Crimeans, Cossacks and foreign volunteers?
Yes, the glorious foreign volunteers, who now command the Donetsk Army as of August. Though in all fairness, the previous CO was also a glorious volunteer from the in no way involved Russian Army. BTW: there were a lot more Crimeans and Cossacks fighting against the separatists than for, according to some reports. The mass-but-unoffical deportation of the Crimean tartars (and almost a million other Crimean so far) might have had something to do with that though.
I will say this, I must admit, the Russians know how to do leave in style. I mean, I can't think of another army that let's you take your MBT with you when you go on vacation.
Of course, with Russia on the rampage, it will be nice to see some good old fashioned American politics soon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/21 02:55:17
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2014/09/21 02:56:54
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
I applaud those who are willing to stand up for their rights rather then roll over and die. This is how democracy will continue to thrive in the world.
Yes, glory to the people of Donetsk and Luhansk who refused to bow down and submit to an unlawful coup-imposed regime that trampled their rights.
Glad that Americans can see it too
terrorists, mercenaries and russian soldiers
Clearly you mean: defected Ukrainian soldiers, angry locals, Crimeans, Cossacks and foreign volunteers?
By "volunteers" do you mean Russian troops ordered there?
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2014/09/21 10:47:00
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Which they weren't as the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, were a large part of Ukrainian people lives, were only barely able to vote.
yes, and only for the approved candidates. After all, the leaders the separatists had chosen were obviously inferior and replaced by glorious former FSB agents at the order of Moscow back in August.
You might also want to check your population maps and demographics, though your definition of 'large' may be more fluid than mine.
Donetsk Oblast is the most densely populated region of Ukraine, there are even more people there than in Kiev. This oblast alone is already 10% of Ukraines total population, not to mention it is also the richest and has most of Ukraines important industry so it is a very significant place.
Luhansk is smaller, but still contains 5.13% of Ukraines total population.
That makes a total of about 15% of Ukraines total population, and the majority of this group was unable to vote. I call that a large part of the population.
Clearly you mean: defected Ukrainian soldiers, angry locals, Crimeans, Cossacks and foreign volunteers?
Yes, the glorious foreign volunteers, who now command the Donetsk Army as of August. Though in all fairness, the previous CO was also a glorious volunteer from the in no way involved Russian Army. BTW: there were a lot more Crimeans and Cossacks fighting against the separatists than for, according to some reports. The mass-but-unoffical deportation of the Crimean tartars (and almost a million other Crimean so far) might have had something to do with that though.
Cossacks fighting against the seperatists? Against pro-Russians? Cossacks are about the most radical Russian nationalists you can find nowadays. If you don't give me a credible source for it, I'm just going to assume you are making things up and have no idea what a Cossack is.
Same goes for the Crimeans. Most Crimeans are very pro-Russian. There may be tatars and Ukrainians from Crimea fighting against the seperatists, but not in significant numbers.
Also, there are no forced deportations. The tatars are welcome to stay, even if many choose to leave to avoid harrasment from the Cossacks. Most people in Crimea have nothing against the Tatars, but the Cossacks are different. They still see the Tatars as enemies, even if they were conquered centuries ago. There were a few lone stanitsas before that gave the Tatars trouble, but with all the Cossacks swarming to Crimea lately I can't blame the Tatars for wanting to leave. There might very well be a new Host in the making.
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2014/09/21 10:54:38
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Sergej Markov, Putin's personal envoy, considers Sweden to be one of the most Rusophobic in Europe. He warns that a World War could be the result if Russia is pushed into a corner.
-Five, six countries are at the forefront of European Rusophobia: Sweden, Poland, the Baltic countries, and Finland. In the cases of Sweden and Poland this hatred of Russia can be explained with old great-power-complexes, in the case of Lithuania and Estonia it's a case of politics. The Rusophobia in Finland, on the other hand, is incomprehensible, seeing as Finland's benefitted from the increase in trade with Russia. Everything points to Sweden and the Baltic nations having influenced Finland, says Sergej Markov, Putin's doverennoje litso.
The title means he [Markov] is the Russian president's personal envoy and represents him [Putin] in public.
Markov is a political scientist and heads his own think-tank, Institute for political research. He is also a member of the Civic Chamber of the Russian Federation, and a known hawk whose ideas are close to Putin's. And he has the president's ear.
-Vladimir Putin and I meet between one and three times a month. I became his personal envoy during the run-up to the 2012 presidential election. Back then we met every week. After the election he [Putin] announced that I had his continued confidence, says Markov.
SvD interviews Markov at Hotel Kosmos in Moscow, where he is opening a seminar for media directors of the region. During his entire opening speech the microphone is malfunctioning. Markov speaks for 40 minutes without the audience hearing a thing. No one dares say anything.
When SvD asks Markov about the deterioration of security policy in Europe he gets upset and almost snarls:
Enough with Russia being treated as inferior! The view of Russians in Europe today is the same as that regarding Jews in times past. Your goal is to destroy Russia. But you will not succeed. Napoleon tried, Hitler tried, without success. You'll destroy Europe instead.
How does this hatred of Russia manifest?
For example the monstrous lies about Ukraine. The claim that Porosjenko was elected in free and fair elections. It's like claiming Bashar al-Assad was democratically elected.
Russia supports al-Assad.
We support those who show understanding for ethnic minorities. The minorities in Syria, the Christians, the Alawites, the Circassians, pray to God that al-Assad remains president. In Ukraine people are killed because they want to elect their own governors and stick to their right to speak their native Russian language. Why does Europe refuse to see this? People were being murdered in Odessa, but your Western media doesn't report on that. Despite the culprit being obvious.
Markov warns for the consequences of cornering Russia.
-Antisemitism started the Second World War, Rusophobia could start a Third. The major problem is that NATO is trying to create artificial conflicts. NATO is no longer needed, it has lost its right to exist and is as a result looking for new purposes. NATO is de facto an American organisation. The American military budget is bigger than the rest of the world combined! The US is arming itself at an alarming rate and is also creating private armies of mercenaries that no one controls, like Blackwater. These developments are extremely dangerous.
What is going to happen in Ukraine?
The most likely solution is the Bosnian scenario. That is, an ethnicity-based federation. Eastern Ukraine becomes the federation of Novorossija, including Donetsk, Luhansk, Charkiv, Odessa, Dnipropetrovsk, and Zaporozjie.
But the separatists only control two of those cities
The others will join their struggle sooner or later. They can't accept the Ukranian nationalists either. In Russia we have to hold back a large stream of volunteers that want to go to Ukraine to protect their brethren. The pressure on Russia to intervene is steadily mounting, 70 percent of the Russian people want Russia to intervene in eastern Ukraine. But Putin doesn't want to. He wants a federation.
There's a number of Russian volunteers in Donbass. Apparently you didn't manage to hold them back
Many more have been stopped at the border.
The separatists are seemingly receiving military aid from Russia
Have you seen how out-of-date their missiles are? Russia has the best anti-air systems in the world. The Rebels are using 1970's weapons. But if the Kiev government doesn't stop using violence against their own people, we will be forced to aid the rebels - with both hardware and men.
[
that the Russian envoy to Sweden called Sweden "Rusophobic" and that there was nothing to fear from Russia. If there isn't, why are they violating both Swedish and Finnish airspace on purpose?
NATO has been expanding for the last two decades, ever since the USSR collapsed. You can't blame recent incidents of Russian aggression for NATO expansion.
I'm not, I'm blaming Russia for knowingly violating the airspace of two sovereign nations that aren't even in NATO.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/21 15:00:58
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2014/09/21 18:03:40
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Cossacks fighting against the seperatists? Against pro-Russians? Cossacks are about the most radical Russian nationalists you can find nowadays. If you don't give me a credible source for it, I'm just going to assume you are making things up and have no idea what a Cossack is.
Same goes for the Crimeans. Most Crimeans are very pro-Russian. There may be tatars and Ukrainians from Crimea fighting against the seperatists, but not in significant numbers.
Apparently better than you do, as I know that cossacks are not universally Russian and that the post Soviet organizations calling themselves cossacks outside Russia have little relationship to actual cossacks. I believe that when you're talking about cossacks, you're talking about 'registered Cossacks' as outlined under Russian law, as opposed to the historical peoples who identify as such. However, this hasn't stopped Cossack groups in Russia and the eastern Ukraine from claiming that the Ukraine belongs to them (in it's entirety). I loved their reference to the government in Kiev as a 'threat to the Russian World'.
OSCE Reports on 'Stakhanov People's Republic' Amidst Conflicting Local News Accounts
17:27 (GMT)
The OSCE monitors have reported on the formation of the "Stakhanov People's Republic" which is reportedly splitting from the "Lugansk People's Republic."
A number of local sources are questioning whether this is a joke or disinformation, and a local news agency is discounting the report.
On the other hand, pro-separatists sources are reporting that the town of Stakhanov did secede from the "Lugansk People's Republic."
And a rally of Cossack fighters was held in Stakhanov today making clear that they wanted to take power.
And refugees from the Crimea have been singing up en mass. I think being 'not deported' has left a bad taste in their mouth. And, given the numbers of refugees, again, I posit that your definitions of large and small numbers is highly fluid.
Also, there are no forced deportations. The tatars are welcome to stay, even if many choose to leave to avoid harrasment from the Cossacks.
Russia gave everyone one month to become a Russian citizen or leave. 12% of the population left in that time frame (A number you consider large when it supports your arguments, but small when it doesn't, apparently). Also, the issue between cossaks and tartars hasn't been the only violence between ethnic groups in the Crimea. The new Russian overlords have not been kind to the Ukrainians who have stayed, with businesses seized and given to loyal Russians, murders, and disappearances. Of course, this all comes from suspect sources like the UN comission on Human Rights, who are obviously in league with those damn Americans in the efforts to smear the glorious Comrade Putin.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
that the Russian envoy to Sweden called Sweden "Rusophobic" and that there was nothing to fear from Russia. If there isn't, why are they violating both Swedish and Finnish airspace on purpose?
You'll find Russians often behave paradoxically (from a Western pov at least). They want you to know that you do not need to be afraid of Russia, but that Russia is very fearsome nonetheless.
Cossacks fighting against the seperatists? Against pro-Russians? Cossacks are about the most radical Russian nationalists you can find nowadays. If you don't give me a credible source for it, I'm just going to assume you are making things up and have no idea what a Cossack is.
Same goes for the Crimeans. Most Crimeans are very pro-Russian. There may be tatars and Ukrainians from Crimea fighting against the seperatists, but not in significant numbers.
Apparently better than you do, as I know that cossacks are not universally Russian and that the post Soviet organizations calling themselves cossacks outside Russia have little relationship to actual cossacks. I believe that when you're talking about cossacks, you're talking about 'registered Cossacks' as outlined under Russian law, as opposed to the historical peoples who identify as such. However, this hasn't stopped Cossack groups in Russia and the eastern Ukraine from claiming that the Ukraine belongs to them (in it's entirety). I loved their reference to the government in Kiev as a 'threat to the Russian World'.
What makes someone a Cossack? I could put on a uniform and start identifying myself as a Cossack, but would that make me one? Some would say yes, but I think not. It comes down to how you define a Cossack. Are they an ethnic group? A warrior caste? A lifestyle?
Cossacks are not Russian, Cossacks are Cossacks. Everyone can become a Cossack. To be a Cossack is to embrace Cossack lifestyle, culture and ideals: Courage and honour, a free and adventurous, and a fierce loyalty to the Orthodox Church and the Russian nation.
They are a combination of an ethnicity with a specific lifestyle, a warrior caste you could call them. You become a Cossack by being descended from one and being raised as one, or by being officially initiated in a host. In my opinion only those that belong to a recognised host are true Cossacks. And all of those are in Russia. Cossacks are defenders of the Russian nation, and it has been that way for hundreds of years.
Many organisations calling themselves cossacks have sprung up yes, but those are not real Cossacks, and actual Cossacks have nothing but scorn for them. As I said, everyone can call himself a cossack, but that doesn't make it true.
When Cossacks claim the Ukraine is theirs, they base that claim on history. Ukraine is not only the original homeland of the Cossacks (many Cossacks speak a Ukrainian dialect even today), but the Zaporozhian Host also ruled it once. With the current Ukrainian government being perceived as anti-Russian, it is no surprise other, modern Cossacks would want to re-instate this Host to ensure Ukraine stays close to Russia.
Also, there are no forced deportations. The tatars are welcome to stay, even if many choose to leave to avoid harrasment from the Cossacks.
Russia gave everyone one month to become a Russian citizen or leave. 12% of the population left in that time frame (A number you consider large when it supports your arguments, but small when it doesn't, apparently). Also, the issue between cossaks and tartars hasn't been the only violence between ethnic groups in the Crimea. The new Russian overlords have not been kind to the Ukrainians who have stayed, with businesses seized and given to loyal Russians, murders, and disappearances. Of course, this all comes from suspect sources like the UN comission on Human Rights, who are obviously in league with those damn Americans in the efforts to smear the glorious Comrade Putin.
I don't recall saying it was a small amount of people that left. You are making up false arguments yet again. It is hard to have a good discussion if you keep lying like that. The Tatars and Ukrainians were welcome to stay if they wanted to become Russian citizens. The fact that radicals on the Russian side choose to vent their rage on innocent individuals belonging to different ethnic groups is regrettable and horrible but you can't really blame it on the Russian government.
pffft... I have learned and used more difficult English words in this thread than in my entire school life so far
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2014/09/21 20:46:57
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
That's refreshing news. I’m glad to see that at least some Russians see Putin’s politics for what it really is and voicing their displeasure with it.
I hope this will speed up Russia’s exit from Ukraine.
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
2014/09/21 20:50:50
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
You are, or at very least have been supportive of Putin and his plans.
It would be hard not to call you a staunch supporter of Russia's agenda in Ukraine.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/21 21:09:17
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
2014/09/21 21:13:50
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
