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Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
There's some talk among high ranking players that Epidemius is just win more. It also limits the list to just Nurgle Daemons.

Pretty much. I find it harder to make a good list with Epi than without.

I dont really agree... i mean, yes, you can only pick nurgle to maximize epidemus; but his buffs are really good. Rerolling 1s to hit just for killing 2 units alone is worth itx lets your demon princes wander and kill stuff. Epidemus himself is no slouch either.

Top it off that many great demons from other codices work with him, like obliterators, pbcs, and bloat drones.

 Zid wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
There's some talk among high ranking players that Epidemius is just win more. It also limits the list to just Nurgle Daemons.

Pretty much. I find it harder to make a good list with Epi than without.

I dont really agree... i mean, yes, you can only pick nurgle to maximize epidemus; but his buffs are really good. Rerolling 1s to hit just for killing 2 units alone is worth itx lets your demon princes wander and kill stuff. Epidemus himself is no slouch either.

Top it off that many great demons from other codices work with him, like obliterators, pbcs, and bloat drones.

Well I thought so too. But who am I to disagree with the top players
Basically his buffs happen too late. If you're getting the buffs - you're probably already winning.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Zid wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
There's some talk among high ranking players that Epidemius is just win more. It also limits the list to just Nurgle Daemons.

Pretty much. I find it harder to make a good list with Epi than without.

I dont really agree... i mean, yes, you can only pick nurgle to maximize epidemus; but his buffs are really good. Rerolling 1s to hit just for killing 2 units alone is worth itx lets your demon princes wander and kill stuff. Epidemus himself is no slouch either.

Top it off that many great demons from other codices work with him, like obliterators, pbcs, and bloat drones.

Well I thought so too. But who am I to disagree with the top players
Basically his buffs happen too late. If you're getting the buffs - you're probably already winning.

yes that is, rerolling one's usually is not a deal cause you will have always a Dp makes PB or drones re roll 1 already, so the best bonus he gives come late in the game, and if you handle to kill 6-7 units hard to believe you aren't already winning.

I've had a lot of opponents spend way too much time and effort into killing epidemius. He is pretty cheap for the fire he draws in. I love running him, but in retrospect, once I get the big buffs I am generally winning.

One of the Dallas GT armies I faced had a ton bunch of little msu units to block deep strike, if I had the tally against them I would have probably gotten to 3 on T1 through oblits and daemon engines.

I was just the ringer though, so I had a fluffy DG list.

 blackmage wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Zid wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
There's some talk among high ranking players that Epidemius is just win more. It also limits the list to just Nurgle Daemons.

Pretty much. I find it harder to make a good list with Epi than without.

I dont really agree... i mean, yes, you can only pick nurgle to maximize epidemus; but his buffs are really good. Rerolling 1s to hit just for killing 2 units alone is worth itx lets your demon princes wander and kill stuff. Epidemus himself is no slouch either.

Top it off that many great demons from other codices work with him, like obliterators, pbcs, and bloat drones.

Well I thought so too. But who am I to disagree with the top players
Basically his buffs happen too late. If you're getting the buffs - you're probably already winning.

yes that is, rerolling one's usually is not a deal cause you will have always a Dp makes PB or drones re roll 1 already, so the best bonus he gives come late in the game, and if you handle to kill 6-7 units hard to believe you aren't already winning.

Pure IG armies, msu armies, dark eldar (lots of squishy vehicles)... i mean there are cases to be made, and he is only 100 points. He is a snowball, and even if he isnt effective in some games, hes a tough 100 point objective holder to sit in back.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I've had a lot of opponents spend way too much time and effort into killing epidemius. He is pretty cheap for the fire he draws in. I love running him, but in retrospect, once I get the big buffs I am generally winning.

Ah, now this is a pretty good point - Epidemius lists can use the fact that he’s seen as a lynchpin to draw units in to try to decapitate you. If you can prepare a trap, that’s worth bearing in mind. Main thing that comes to mind is, say, Possessed or even Warp Talons or maybe a Lasherfiend, an apparently safe distance away, and a CSM psyker without Warptime who can use a Familiar and shout SURPRISE. Not something I’d rely on doing, but something I’ll look at trying to bake into Epi lists as a potential trap card.

Agreed that his big buffs are generally snowball effect multipliers. In a really big game, not so much - you’ll probably get the kills you need early on. But in a standard game, I find what happens is I have a battle group or two that largely hang around a Daemon Prince ‘captain’, get a few kills, then the DPs turn into kamikaze self-Warptimers and such whilst the remaining high damage NURGLE DAEMONS spread out a bit with their M bonus to pick targets with their hit re-rolls.

Not tried the Horticulous Oblits garden yet. Not got the minis for it, and it seems like a bit of a heavy investment that’ll yield little against gunline armies that can access ignores cover. It’d be amazing against my Space Wolf and Tyranid friends, but I’d not bother taking it to all comers.

I got a small friendly tournament comming up, which im sure I will be at least against one Necron player and one Space marines player (ultra marines). I'm between two list and cannot decide which list would be the best so I thought maybe you can help me. Im going all in on tzeentch daemons and could only think of adding Thousand sons into the list.

List 1; 10 CP:


List 2; 14 CP (2 battalions):


List 1: The strategy for this list is to deepstrike deamon prince, changecaster and 9 flamers for total of 4 CP and give them various buffs. Downside is that it leaves me with 6 CP to work with. The plan is that Lord of Change would be advancing and focused in the middle with 2++ (-2 CP each shoooting phase) invurnable save together with splitting pink horrors while screamers and fateskimmer move their way in the flank, grabbing objectives and eventually charging in. The deepstrike on turn 2 will bring the big hammer and take cares of the enemy while brimestones got the objectives. Reserve points = 191

list 2: at 14 CP and without flamers I can deepstrike the pink horrors instead. The strategy is similiar to list 1 but instead of footslogging the pink horrors they are going to deepstrike with daemon prince and changecaster. The lord of change will still have 2++ but the enemy would have no other choice then to focus lord of change or screamers (I dont think brimestones would be in consideration). Upside with this list is that i got 10 CP to work with and a little more reserve points for splitting/summoning but less fire power when deepstriking in.

Which list do you think is the best one?
If you think both suck, how would you change it? (there is a while before the tourment so i got time for painting any new the models)
Will the stragety work or will I get roffastomped?

Note: I have to pick blue horrors instead of brimestones because of lack of models. Who knows, maybe 5++ instead of 6++ is worth 2 points

 lindsay40k wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I've had a lot of opponents spend way too much time and effort into killing epidemius. He is pretty cheap for the fire he draws in. I love running him, but in retrospect, once I get the big buffs I am generally winning.

Ah, now this is a pretty good point - Epidemius lists can use the fact that he’s seen as a lynchpin to draw units in to try to decapitate you. If you can prepare a trap, that’s worth bearing in mind. Main thing that comes to mind is, say, Possessed or even Warp Talons or maybe a Lasherfiend, an apparently safe distance away, and a CSM psyker without Warptime who can use a Familiar and shout SURPRISE. Not something I’d rely on doing, but something I’ll look at trying to bake into Epi lists as a potential trap card.

Agreed that his big buffs are generally snowball effect multipliers. In a really big game, not so much - you’ll probably get the kills you need early on. But in a standard game, I find what happens is I have a battle group or two that largely hang around a Daemon Prince ‘captain’, get a few kills, then the DPs turn into kamikaze self-Warptimers and such whilst the remaining high damage NURGLE DAEMONS spread out a bit with their M bonus to pick targets with their hit re-rolls.

Not tried the Horticulous Oblits garden yet. Not got the minis for it, and it seems like a bit of a heavy investment that’ll yield little against gunline armies that can access ignores cover. It’d be amazing against my Space Wolf and Tyranid friends, but I’d not bother taking it to all comers.

Yes, Epidemus seems to get focused early; which is less pew going into the actual threats (Demon princes, PB's, etc.)

In reply to an earlier response about demon princes: yes, you will generally have one nearby, but its not a requirement with Epidemus. Not only that, his rerolls work for Demon Engines of nurgle (so you don't need a lord to reroll your mortars, for example), the movement/str/toughness buffs are nice too. rarely will you hit 7 before he dies, but people will spend a lot of resources to prevent it.

Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight

So I found a hilarious solution to my Daemons problem earlier.

I have begun fielding 2 Defilers, and after reading the Designer's Commentary, I now realize that a defiler can advance and charge if it's within 6" of a Slaanesh Daemon character.

So, my current way to smash Knights is to advance with a Defiler and pop smoke, then Warptime and advance again, still smoked, then charge.

This gives my defiler 16+4d6" charge range, and means the enemy is -1 to hit him with guns when they are inevitably crushed and falling back. Pair with Prescience and the Daemoniforge stratagem and my Defilers put a whupping on Knights fairly easily...

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight

i might try renegade Ik with 2 gatlings and couple of armiger autocannons, or 3 armiger autocannons+something else like a distracting carnifex (a ds GUO?), today i got 2nd again with my nurgle+Ts+N demons winning all 3 matches so im bit unsure if worth change something.
Someone have some feedback about GUO? ty

 blackmage wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight

i might try renegade Ik with 2 gatlings and couple of armiger autocannons, or 3 armiger autocannons+something else like a distracting carnifex (a ds GUO?), today i got 2nd again with my nurgle+Ts+N demons winning all 3 matches so im bit unsure if worth change something.
Someone have some feedback about GUO? ty

Do you mind sharing your list? Sorry if you did so already but the thread is long.

 blackmage wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight

i might try renegade Ik with 2 gatlings and couple of armiger autocannons, or 3 armiger autocannons+something else like a distracting carnifex (a ds GUO?), today i got 2nd again with my nurgle+Ts+N demons winning all 3 matches so im bit unsure if worth change something.
Someone have some feedback about GUO? ty

I've had success with Sword + knife GUO. Knife for reliable powers. Sword for hitting big stuff. Doesn't always make charge on the drop but he's fast with Bilepiper around after that. Can start him in the board army dependent too.

All the other loadouts like bell or flail are meh. Until summoning has more upside as a mechanic don't bother with it.

I rolled with the following (mostly) Daemon list at a tourney this past Saturday and walked away 3-0:

-1K Sons Battalion-
1K Sons Daemon Prince with Wings
1K Sons Daemon Prince with Wings
Sorcerer
x10 Cultists
x10 Cultists
x10 Cultists
x9 Tzaangor Enlightened with Bows
Tzaangor Shaman

-Tzeentch Daemons Battalion-
Herald of Tzeentch (Warlord-Daemonspark)
The Changeling
x30 Pink Horrors with Instrument
x10 Brimstone Horrors
x10 Brimstone Horrors
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer

-Mixed Daemons Battalion-
Khorne Daemon Prince with Wings, Skullreaver
Herald of Slaanesh (usually with Forbidden Gem)
x3 Nurglings
x3 Nurglings
x3 Nurglings

18 CP, with points left over for Horror splitting to keep the big squad 20+

I'd wager many in this thread have already witnessed the madness that is the 30 Pink Horror blob, buffed by a Herald and Flickering Flames. The Daemonspark WL trait really puts it over the top, making the Exalted Flamers more deadly as well. A Daemon Prince nearby also adds that re-roll 1s to hit, which ain't bad. I would run another squad of the same, but a smart opponent would presumably just blast whichever squad I don't buff with a +1 invul during their shooting phase. The Changegling is there for one more Smite, along with that simple, but effective FNP buff (he's also a cool model that I have painted up and like to put on the table). I think a dedicated melee army may be the biggest threat to the Pink Blob, but I would screen the 20 Brimstones in a zipper formation in front of them in that scenario (1 from squad A, 1 from squad B, in a line), which requires putting major casualties in both squads in the shooting phase to open up the line.

We were running ITC missions, or I may have left the Nurglings at home now that turn 1 deep strikes aren't as much of a thing. However, they are just dirty in ITC missions, letting me play for the table quarters and enemy board edge secondaries, with these little buggers scooting up at the ends of the board. My opponent can either waste time shooting them (easier said than done) or let me rack up some battle points. They do offer an easy first turn kill point/first blood, but a savvy opponent could go for the Brimstones or Cultists anyway.

One artifact I've always liked the idea of is the Forbidden Gem on a Slaanesh Herald. It stuck with my big blob of Pinks, shutting down melee characters for a phase that got too close. It twice was able to shut down a Knight Gallant's charge phase, since they are usually characters. My opponents were not pleased... It can also take the -1 to hit spell, which could come in handy when it's a better option than smite.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, but Skullreaver is another doozy of a relic, particularly since everyone's dusting off their Knights. On AVERAGE, the Khorne DP drops over 20 wounds on a Knight in one round of combat (that's not including the potential "fight again" strat. He can also hide behind the blob until an opportunity presents itself.

I'll also sing the praises of the 1K Sons Daemon Prince, though that's not exactly on top in this thread. Why they got such stronger DPs for the same price is a question for the ages. I'd wager they'll get a bump in the next CA unfortunately. The Tzaangor Englightened squad also gave me a fast, dangerous army element to reach out with Warp Time and tag shooty units or grab objectives. They also proved to be a fire magnet which prompted me to start giving them defensive buffs. Overall, Smite is as badass as ever and I really wish Tzeentch Daemons got included in the Smite rule exclusion, because they need/deserve it.

 blackmage wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight

i might try renegade Ik with 2 gatlings and couple of armiger autocannons, or 3 armiger autocannons+something else like a distracting carnifex (a ds GUO?), today i got 2nd again with my nurgle+Ts+N demons winning all 3 matches so im bit unsure if worth change something.
Someone have some feedback about GUO? ty

It sucks and dies turn 1 like any other greater daemon except 2++ LoC which is a waste of artifacts and CP

orkswubwub wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight

i might try renegade Ik with 2 gatlings and couple of armiger autocannons, or 3 armiger autocannons+something else like a distracting carnifex (a ds GUO?), today i got 2nd again with my nurgle+Ts+N demons winning all 3 matches so im bit unsure if worth change something.
Someone have some feedback about GUO? ty

Do you mind sharing your list? Sorry if you did so already but the thread is long.

i sent you a pm with my TS+Dg+Demons list, just consider i play in Italy and we dont use ITC/Nova rules so the list is build for our tournament formats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight

i might try renegade Ik with 2 gatlings and couple of armiger autocannons, or 3 armiger autocannons+something else like a distracting carnifex (a ds GUO?), today i got 2nd again with my nurgle+Ts+N demons winning all 3 matches so im bit unsure if worth change something.
Someone have some feedback about GUO? ty

It sucks and dies turn 1 like any other greater daemon except 2++ LoC which is a waste of artifacts and CP

turn one is impossible cause you can keep it in ds, maybe you meant the first turn he is on the board.

Ok dafuq.

6th place in major. Only 1 loss:

Mortarion
2 GUO
1 Rotigus
Bilepiper
fill rest with nurglings.

i played 1 time a similar thing but had Mortarion Magnus and demon battalion with GUO winged dp 60 Pb and 9 nurglings

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Ok dafuq.

6th place in major. Only 1 loss:

Mortarion
2 GUO
1 Rotigus
Bilepiper
fill rest with nurglings.

The downside of morty in DG lists is that there are no other threats to pull fire from. Usually people fill the rest with objective holders or allies to buff up morty. Bring 2 GUO, and suddenly you have 3 giant scary monsters that can and will murder just about anything they touch. Nurglings are a top tier utility unit that can easily tie up an opponent on T1 thanks to their infiltrate. At a recent GT I was the ringer, so I faced people when there were uneven number due to drops. There was a surprising amount of gunlines there, I faced 2 of them. Tau and Necrons. I feel if I was running a list like the one above, it would have been an easy win (though I was supposed to lose, so I ran footslog PM and morty) It might have been that they faced armies that were not capable of easily dealing with tons of nurglings and 3 giant monsters, or they just played it well. I'll add this to the list of armies I think look pretty damned fun to run.

That is about 27 nurglings and will net you 13CP, which is more than enough to keep a GUO with ++4 for the whole game, deep strike anything you want, and have room for re-rolls. Though, if you run MSU nurglings you will not likely be getting +1 to first turn.

Also, possible WAAC cheap move I noticed. Errata says that Miasma of Pestilence in DG and Daemon book counts as the same spell because it has the same name. The CSM Miasma is called "Mark of nurgle miasma of pestilence" was there an errata on it to also be the same as DG and Daemons, if not, can it be cast on DG units to double stack miasma on say, morty?

It physically hurts me that Soul Grinders are SO much worse than Defilers.

Send help.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Ok dafuq.

6th place in major. Only 1 loss:

Mortarion
2 GUO
1 Rotigus
Bilepiper
fill rest with nurglings.

If someones not expecting it, that list can work really well. Thats like a bazillion high wound, high toughness, with fnp models. Plus bilepiper makes everything swing more. I feel morty is just there to take shots the first couple turns while the GUO's get up there. Nurglings can oddly do a lot of damage en-masse....

I'll be trying the list tonight, but with 6 less nurglings, and add in epidemius. Mostly to give the GUOs re-roll 1s to hit, and be another high value target.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It physically hurts me that Soul Grinders are SO much worse than Defilers.

Send help.

To be fair they are quite a bit better in melee then defilers and locuses and alignment can make them suprisingly effective (i.e turn 1 slaanesh soul grinder charges and cripples enemy knight, or 4+ invuln tzeentch grinder with locus to negate hit rolls of x creating great rage from enemy leman russes) but i'd rather have the shooting, strategems, and -1 to hit legion trait on the defiler 4/5 times.

Is anyone else quite underwhelmed by the nurgle relics? The other three gods have items that are really good (imo) such as the khorne armour & axe, tzeentch robe, and slaanesh sword, but nurgle is left with a decent-ish sword for a herald and two very situational items. And for some reason Nurgle only has three relics.

Corruption looks like it would be useful on a scrivener, giving him a surprising punch in cc, but the bell and horn look fairly uninspiring. It's a pity they didn't give us grotti the nurgling from the last codex.

operkoi wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It physically hurts me that Soul Grinders are SO much worse than Defilers.

Send help.

To be fair they are quite a bit better in melee then defilers and locuses and alignment can make them suprisingly effective (i.e turn 1 slaanesh soul grinder charges and cripples enemy knight, or 4+ invuln tzeentch grinder with locus to negate hit rolls of x creating great rage from enemy leman russes) but i'd rather have the shooting, strategems, and -1 to hit legion trait on the defiler 4/5 times.

Well, back in 7th edition, a Soul Grinder was much better than a Defiler (which was horribly overcosted). I guess the pendulum swung back again.

ArikTaranis wrote:
Is anyone else quite underwhelmed by the nurgle relics? The other three gods have items that are really good (imo) such as the khorne armour & axe, tzeentch robe, and slaanesh sword, but nurgle is left with a decent-ish sword for a herald and two very situational items. And for some reason Nurgle only has three relics.

Corruption looks like it would be useful on a scrivener, giving him a surprising punch in cc, but the bell and horn look fairly uninspiring. It's a pity they didn't give us grotti the nurgling from the last codex.

Corruption is pretty decent on a DP, not even close to a Khorne axe DP though, but still nice. I guess it's a tough swap going from 3dmg to D3, but extra strength and AP with re-roll wounds makes it nice for hunting bigger stuff. I generally run the horn on a malefic talons daemon prince and a blob of 30PB. Drop the PB in the center of the field so its easy to be in range of wherever, get stuck in with whatever you can and as they die, the DP moves in and picks stuff off, adding PB back to the unit for free.

Grotti was such an awesome relic, I even went out and bought an old school GUO nurgling to use as grotti.


Wasn't able to try the 3 GUO+Morty list last night. I was the odd man out on 40k night. Plus I didn't want to face the knight list I face last week, or gunline eldar with high proxy, bleh, gunlines are just bland to face.

operkoi wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It physically hurts me that Soul Grinders are SO much worse than Defilers.

Send help.

To be fair they are quite a bit better in melee then defilers and locuses and alignment can make them suprisingly effective (i.e turn 1 slaanesh soul grinder charges and cripples enemy knight, or 4+ invuln tzeentch grinder with locus to negate hit rolls of x creating great rage from enemy leman russes) but i'd rather have the shooting, strategems, and -1 to hit legion trait on the defiler 4/5 times.

Defilers don't get legion traits, but you can do a turn 1 charge just as well with a Defiler as with a Soul Grinder.

i was looking at those "top demon lists" and was wondering how they perform against dark eldar and new Ik's
https://imgur.com/gallery/O9AtsiG

 blackmage wrote:
i was looking at those "top demon lists" and was wondering how they perform against dark eldar and new Ik's
https://imgur.com/gallery/O9AtsiG

From IK player point of view:

First list. Daemon princes will hurt. Knights hate anything fast, character protected h2h things. Not sure how bad those are in damage output but marine captains with thunder hammer are evil, slamquinus will simply make short work of knight. How well daemon prince compares to either? I would assume not badly at least to marine captain. Trio of those charging into knight should make world of hurt and before they charge not much knight player can really even do to them short of hawkshroud valiant(which I suspect won't be most popular knight in tournament lists)

Plaguebearers will be positive PITA for knight heavy list. They have precious few ways to deal with horde to begin with and invulnerable save and FNP loaded infantry are going to be major hurdle to go through. Nurglings can be annoyance in being cheap roadblock or they can take hold objectives and knights have nothing they really want to spend killing them...

Second list. Read above regarding plaguebearers. Crawlers can be trouble though knights are better at dealing with tough lone models. Castellan can hurt those rather well and will as a minimum put 2 into 2nd wound bracket or worse in one turn likely.

My feeling will be they won't win neccessarily killing war though those daemon princes can do wonders but when you factor objectives pure knight list will struggle. Imperial soup with 1-3 knights will probably do better but pure knights will find those plaguebearer swarms nightmare to deal with.

thx, i play a close list like the 2nd one, but i never faced Ik's or De so i was wondering.