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Not sure if this was covered yet. If i have a chaos dreadnought that just went frenzied and the closest unit is two units engaged in close combat obviously one unit is mine and the other unit is the opponents. Which unit, or does both of the units feel the wraith of the dreadnought. I know you are not allowed too fire into close combat in a normal situation. How does everyone handle this?

In situations like this, CAN'T trumps MUST. A unit must perform its compulsory action unless it is unable to do so. For example, if a unit's rules compel it to Move, but it is Immobilized, the Immobilized takes precedence.

Since the fire frency result does not contain a specific exception to the rules forbidding firing into close combat, I believe the Dread would have to shoot at the next-closest visible unit.

I would agree with that. Anything preventing you from being allowed to shoot at the nearest unit would render that unit an invalid target.

For references sake, are we talking about nearest target or nearest target the dread can see from it's weapons LOS? I always seem to have trouble with this rule and vehicle rules.

Opinions are divided.

Some feel that it's the nearest target the dreadnought can draw LOS to as it is currently positioned.

Some feel that the fact that the Fire Frenzy rule says to pivot the dread towards the closest visible target means that it's the closest unit tot he dreadnought in any direction.

When a Chaos dreadnought goes into Fire Frenzy it fires at the nearest visible target, so its LOS matters.

aaaaaand there's the debate. If a vehicle only has forward mounted weapons, can I infiltrate 12' behind it since it can't see me? Can i avoid the adverse effects of Rage by having my models face my deployment zone? These kinds of things

Though I think it's pretty clear that LoS is involved. I've never met anyone who will let me play it like that.... :(

You find what is in LOS, you then pivot towards it. If you were not compelled to pivot towards it you may not be able to fire with all weapons.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You find what is in LOS, you then pivot towards it. If you were not compelled to pivot towards it you may not be able to fire with all weapons.

The question then becomes what do you do when you pivot towards the closest thing you see and you happen to pivot and see a closer unit as well?

I have actually corrected a number of supposedly more experienced players regarding this specific model and its rule. Don't get yourself stitched up by imagining somehow that your dreadnaught has tunnel vision and can only see in a 45 degree arc in front of itself. This isn't fantasy - remember not to trip over the whole facings issue.

Your dreadnaught will PIVOT and THEN shoot at the nearest visible target. That means, imagine you being a big metal dude, looking around for the closest thing of interest to shoot, and shooting it. Period.

If the closest unit is completely concealed behind a wall, then it is not visible, find one that is. However if the closest unit is exactly 1.1 inches behind your dreadnaught, that dreadnaught will turn right the snark around and blast it.

If even that does not convince or comfort you, break it down into the component phases. Your dreadnaught moves, being to pivot, in the movement phase - to face the nearest visible target. Then, in the shooting phase, it fires upon that target.

Hey, i'm all for letting Chaos dreads take advantage of the "LOS benefit".

Makes an AWFULLY tempting target for my assault cannons...

Boneblade- despite the surity of your answer it may not be the correct answer. As was pointed out in the older thread the only time you check line of sight is in the shooting phase. The rules state that you check LoS from the weapon as it stands on the model. With hull mounted weapons you check to see if something is in the front 45 of the weapon and then you shoot (if appropriate). While I agree with you in how I think it should work I'm merely pointing out that there is a legitimate question as to how it does work.

Heh, my roomate and I get into this argument at least once a week. Yay for ambiguous rules!

I know older codices are in no way an authority on modern rules, but if you're looking for some history to use for RAI interpretations, the 2nd ed codex explicitly states it will "fire all of its weapons at the closest model within its firing arc". Lends a bit more RAI weight to the RAW interpretation favored by many here.

(That said, I still prefer the more flavorful interpretation of it pumping piles of ammunition into whatever unfortunate soul is closest, and the folks I play with certainly take no issue to it being more likely to shoot me than them)

Maenus_Rajhana wrote:I know older codices are in no way an authority on modern rules, but if you're looking for some history to use for RAI interpretations, the 2nd ed codex explicitly states it will "fire all of its weapons at the closest model within its firing arc". Lends a bit more RAI weight to the RAW interpretation favored by many here.

It really doesn't, since 2nd edition's shooting rules were quite considerably different to the current edition.

You pivot towards the closest visible enemy. so you cannto pivot until you determine WHAT is the closest, visible enemy.

And this is (MUST BE) worked out before you turn.

Agree with Nosferatu.

I just don't agree with that. What is the point in including a line like "it must pivot on the spot towards. . " if it can only aim at something currently within its supposed 45 degree visible firing arc? On another note entirely, you are assigning physical characteristics to an inanimate object. For the purposes of determining what is visible to the model you need to assume that anything where you can draw an imaginary 3d line between the dreadnaught and its target without intersecting complete cover is visible. Just because it is facing forward does not mean it cannot "see" something behind it the way you are interpreting it.

Now, if it was not able to pivot, it still would not be able to shoot a model behind it because the weapons themselves are limited in their firing arc. However the codex specifically states that it can. This business of "it can only see in a 45 degree arc in front of it and therefor may only pivot to face a model already visible in that 45 degree arc" is a total contradiction of the rule. At that point, you have no need whatsoever to pivot. Not only does it not make sense for Fire Frenzy but you are then creating an entirely new ruleset being this 45 degree "visual arc / LoS" in order to use this rule the way you want to.

Try applying that to any number of Pysker models that are perfectly able to shoot a unit within range of their power without needing to have turned to face that unit in their movement phase to do so. See how far you get.

The point of the pivot is it ensures that both weapons are able to fire.

The only time you have any hint of wht "visible" means is in the LOS rules for vehicles, and this is limited to 45 degree for Walker weapons as they are not turret / sponson mounts.

Until it pivots the models behind (or outsifde of the 45 degree arc) are NOT visible and so you cannot begin to pivot towards it.

Thank you for pointing me to this section of the rules. Pg 72 BRB. Right side, 7th paragraph.

"When firing the walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target. . . and THEN measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel, as normal for vehicles."

Excluded the parenthesis and added my own emphasis.

Boneblade wrote:I just don't agree with that. What is the point in including a line like "it must pivot on the spot towards. . " if it can only aim at something currently within its supposed 45 degree visible firing arc? On another note entirely, you are assigning physical characteristics to an inanimate object. For the purposes of determining what is visible to the model you need to assume that anything where you can draw an imaginary 3d line between the dreadnaught and its target without intersecting complete cover is visible. Just because it is facing forward does not mean it cannot "see" something behind it the way you are interpreting it.

As Nos said, the point of the Dread pivoting toward its chosen target is so that weapons on both arms can come to bear, even if the target was only in the arc of one of them when LOS was initially determined. Vehicles do NOT have 360 degree LOS. They have LOS based on their weapon fire arcs.

Boneblade wrote:ITry applying that to any number of Pysker models that are perfectly able to shoot a unit within range of their power without needing to have turned to face that unit in their movement phase to do so. See how far you get.

As noted, Infantry models functionally DO have 360 degree LOS (p11 "Turning and Facing").

No again. You are equating a weapon-mounts limited firing arc with whether or not the model can draw a visual line to the target. In the case of a Land Raider pointed north, I may declare against a target in its southeast quadrant - and fire upon that target with any weapon that is within a valid arc. You must first measure LoS from the MODEL, and then from that model's weaponry in the case of vehicles (and their associated arcs). When speaking of Walkers, under the section noted in my previous post, they are able to pivot in the shooting phase just before they actually shoot their target, essentially allowing them to fire as if they were infantry.

No, we are applying the ONLY PLACE IN THE RULES where vehicle LOS is defined in order to, erm, determine how LOS is determined.

Yes, when you declare a target that is out of LOS you can pivot and turn towards it. This has nothing to do with Fire Frenzy, where you are not declaring a target - your target is declared for you.

Boneblade, per Vehicle Weapons & Line of Sight on pages 58-59, the only way we determine LOS for a vehicle is by its weapons. There literally is no other means of determining LOS for a vehicle.

Per page 72 "when firing" a Dread's weapons you pivot it on the spot toward the target. But you don't fire until after you determine LOS. Which has to be done from the weapons.

You're arguing that all Dreadnoughts always have a 360 degree LOS, which is certainly not true.

I think I just managed to see the point you two are trying to make. Most credit to Nosferatu for the line about the involuntary targeting. While I still find it questionable to begin applying vehicle weapon LoS rules to what a model is actually able to see, if in fact a vehicle model may only see through its weapon systems then this appears to be the correct interpretation of the rules.

However my question at that point becomes like this. Order of Shooting. .

1. Select model that will shoot

2. Measure LoS to target unit

3. If LoS is achieved, unit may be fired upon. Measure range and resolve shooting.


In the case of a normal walker. . you are allowed to pivot on the spot and face the target, and then resolve shooting. If this target is immediately behind the Dreadnaught, isn't the walker still able to turn around and shoot that target? This would imply that it has visual LoS to the target but cannot actually shoot it with any weapons until after it pivots on the spot to face the target.

If that is the case how is LoS any different for a Fire Frenzy dreadnaught?

Because you've got the order mixed around. Page 15- the FIRST step of shooting is to check LOS & pick a target. You can only every select a unit as a target if it's in your LOS before you select it.

So a normal walker / dreadnaught would NOT be able to pivot and fire upon a unit in its rear arc because it CANNOT pick a target that was not within its original 45 degree LoS at the beginning of the shooting phase. Right?

While we're on the subject of fire-frenzy, I have a question. If My dreadnought has a missile launcher, can I choose to fire either missile, and if so, when do I get to choose which to fire? Right after the target is selected? Thanks!

Sorry for hijacking your thread OP, I just thought it would be easier than making a whole new thread

Boneblade wrote:So a normal walker / dreadnaught would NOT be able to pivot and fire upon a unit in its rear arc because it CANNOT pick a target that was not within its original 45 degree LoS at the beginning of the shooting phase. Right?

Exactly!

You check LOS for your available legal targets, then pick one. A regular vehicle can't pivot in the shooting phase so can only then fire the guns which can actually bear on the target at that point. But a Dread gets to pivot after picking its target, so if said target is only in arc of one gun, it can get the second gun into play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Samus_aran115 wrote:While we're on the subject of fire-frenzy, I have a question. If My dreadnought has a missile launcher, can I choose to fire either missile, and if so, when do I get to choose which to fire? Right after the target is selected? Thanks!

You choose how to fire weapons with multiple modes, just before actually resolving the shots.

Mannahnin wrote:Because you've got the order mixed around. Page 15- the FIRST step of shooting is to check LOS & pick a target. You can only every select a unit as a target if it's in your LOS before you select it.

The thing is, that same reasoning would actually lose infantry their perceived 360 degree fire arc... Because they are likewise given permission to turn and face their target (rather than a potential target) in the shooting phase. If you have to establish LOS before a unit can be considered a target, this permission is meaningless... the models in the unit would have to be facing their potential target in order for it to be 'their target' and so have no need to turn and face it in the shooting phase.


The problem is simply that the shooting rules are a little too loosely worded to nail this one down with any real accuracy. GW don't give us a set-in-stone process, because they use the word 'target' a little too loosely throughout the rules. You need LOS to choose a target, but you need to choose your target in order to draw LOS to it.


So, as far as I can see, if we're allowing infantry to turn and face their targets in the shooting phase, we have to also allow dreadnoughts to do the same, as their LOS rules essentially function the same way. So 'pivot to face their target' means pivoting to face the unit that you want to select as a target, rather than the unit that you have already selected as a target.