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Ok, I have some questions about Flying mounts, cavalry and monstrous, and how they interact with the Pigeon Plucker Amulet and the attribute for the Lore of the Heavens.

Say I have a WoC Lord on a Disk of Tizz. Disk of Tizz is a cav mount that has the fly rule. Does the whole model have the Fly rule, or just the mount part? Ie. does an enemy character with the Pigeon Plucker Amulet get the "5+ ward against wounds caused in close combat by models that have the Fly special rule" vs attacks from the Lord, or just the Disk? Pg 82 doesn't give the special rule Fly to the rider, but am I missing something?

Similarly, if I have a lord riding a manticore (a monstrous mount), does the target get a 5+ save vs both the monster and the lord, or just the manticore? Likewise, if I target the Lord and Manticore model with say Ice Shard Blizzard, do both get hit with their own d6 Str4 hits, just one set of d6 hits randomized as per shooting, or does only the Manticore part take the hits since only that part of the model has the Fly rule (following the logic that the ward save does not transfer as well, etc.)?

Lots of questions that I have never really seen come up ever, neither here nor in battle reports, oddly enough. Thanks for the help!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, one more question: If a Sorc Lord on a Disk with Third Eye of Tizz steals Ice Shard Blizzard and casts it a character with the Pigeon Plucker Amulet on a flying mount, does he get the 5+ ward vs the Str4 hits?

Wehrkind wrote:Ok, one more question: If a Sorc Lord on a Disk with Third Eye of Tizz steals Ice Shard Blizzard and casts it a character with the Pigeon Plucker Amulet on a flying mount, does he get the 5+ ward vs the Str4 hits?

Your pronoun is pretty vague here, but if you're asking whether the Pigeon Plucker enemy gets a 5+ ward against the magic damage from the disc wizard, I'd say no way, as the PPA does say in combat only, not magic / shooting.

As to the rest, it sounds like yet more questions revolving around what a 'model' is in 8th edition, in regards to multi-part (monster with riders) or faux multi-part (warbeast / monstrous beast with rider) units. I suppose I myself would say the 5+ plucker ward only kicks in vs the component that actually has the Fly rule (there is little to suggest the rule translates to the rider, though Fear comes close), but then when hitting the manticore lord with lightning I'd randomize the extra hits just like the BRB says to randomize other shooting / magic missile hits.

Way to pick some obscure stuff Wehr, particularly the PPA questions

EDIT

p. 82 actually tells us that special rules for the mount do not apply to the rider, except for: Fear / Terror, Stupidity, ItP, Frenzy (Berserk Rage, not Extra Attak)

- Salvage

Yeah, funny about the pigeon plucker amulet questions . So from your answer, Salvage, it sounds like you're saying a character using said amulet would not get the 5+ ward saves against attacks from the mounted character on a flying beastie?

I'm trying to work that out, and whether it would be different from a character on a monstrous mount (with separate profiles) vs. a character mounted on something smaller that isn't treated separately (such as a disc).

The ice shard blizzard is a good question, too... and it makes sense to me to randomize it like shooting against something like a character on manticore. I'm guessing that against a character on disc, it would all go into the "model" which ends up being the character's stats, right?

Yea, that's how I read it Ritides.

If I were to be asked to adjudicate, I would probably say the PPA grants the save vs the Lord on a Disk (since it is all one model with no difference in stats/wounds, ie. you can't kill one part only) but the Lord on the Manticore probably wouldn't. Granted, as Salvage points out quite correctly, they are all one "model" so it isn't really clear to me that there is any distinction at all to be made when taking the save. Seeing as how the whole model gets to fly (the manticore doesn't leave his lord sitting there while he flits off 20") I would think the whole model would grant the save.

And yea, I mangled my pronouns there... I was pretty tired when I wrote that last bit

The whole thing came up because I was trying to figure out how to make the Daemon Bound Sword (or whatever the 75 point UBER weapon in the WoC book is called) not suck. The only way I could figure to make it usable so that it didn't kill the owner was pretty much to give them as good a ward save as possible. However, 25 points of item allowance doesn't offer much, but then I realized that a Lord of Tizz on a Disk could afford a 1+ armor save (with dragon hat and shield) plus the PPA, allowing a 4+ (5+ + 1+ for tizz) ward save AGAINST HIMSELF since 1's are resolved as if he had attacked himself, and he has Fly. Oddly it isn't much of a stretch, assuming the entire model has Fly. I was hoping it was like Fast Cav. and the whole model had it, but I guess it is still up in the air. Drat.

This is some grade-A weird stuff, right here. I think the first place to look is where they first talk about mounts of any kind. As you said, the character certainly flies with his mount, but whether or not he can Fly is...a...question.

Also, I think that applying the Ward save from this little item to yourself is a bit of a stretch. As in, it is. But it's certainly one way to make that Sword work for you (I'd try to find a way to re-roll hits, otherwise).

Warpsolution wrote:(I'd try to find a way to re-roll hits, otherwise).

I wonder if that's a good idea with the d-sword? You're really only rerolling 2's (1's can't be rerolled per the sword, and WS8 is likely 3+ vs most everything), and the helm of eyes's 25 points could go elsewhere.

Frankly, I think people should just admit that the d-sword is one of those Awesome Ultimate Weapons of Ultimate Awesomeness and take it for that reason, and not try to push for sneaky ways to survive Lady Luck's less gentle caresses. And anyway, my d-sword build (MoT, d-sword, dragonhelm, talisman of protection, shield)* has a 5+ ward that requires no rules gymnastics to pull off

- Salvage

*I myself would prefer just going with the ogre blade, talisman of endurance, helm of eyes, shield (or giant blade, talisman of protection, helm of eyes, shield) over the sword of +D3S, +D6A, +Hitting Yourself. Randomness is awesome, but 75 points of randomness? I'd rather know what I'm rocking, preferably with rerolls for the win.

I'd say you get the 5+ ward save.
The chaos lord is not using his 4" movement, he is flying around the table.

If you're saying the character doesn't get special rules for the mount, so he isn't "flying", then he doesn't get flying and cannot fly. FLY is a special rule, so by a strict reading of the mount rules, a character mounted on a flying mount cannot fly, and units with multiple movement types must use the slowest.

-Matt

I think the Lord getting the 5+ PPA save if he can get Fly is pretty solid, considering it says to resolve the hit against himself, but I just don't know if he counts as a "model with the Fly rule".

It really is trying to make the sword better than it is... 75 points to occasionally kill yourself is really rough, especially when just taking it hurts your survivability in general because you can't afford the big ward items. I am really tempted to give it a shot though, with some Tizz lord on a disk with a giant angry blade, and a little necklace with some feathers and a chicken foot on it. Well, a pigeon foot.

But yea, man once you get down that road, the madness begins with the rules questions.

Wehrkind wrote:It really is trying to make the sword better than it is... 75 points to occasionally kill yourself is really rough, especially when just taking it hurts your survivability in general because you can't afford the big ward items.

The d-sword pales in comparison to The Ultimate Awesome Ultimate Weapon of Ultimate Awesomeness: FELLBLADE. 100 points and so deadly that it can kill your general without ever leaving its scabbard

All the same, still don't think it works per the cavalry rules I quoted, still think you're better off (i.e. with intact tires post-game) taking the 15 point (25 if it's the collar) 5+ ward and dealing.

- Salvage

I like the daemon sword on the sorcerer lord.
S5 to S7, with 4 to 9 attacks.
I went with slaanesh, on a steed of slaanesh, enchanted shield, Necrotic Phylactery, 3rd eye, and roar.

The steed is fast cav, so this guy can Vanguard!
1+ armor is pretty good for absorbing those S5-7 hits when you toss out the 1's.
Fast Cav also lets you march and roar, and the necrotic protects you from the whole lore of death, and auto-pass characteristic tests, which would also protect against dwellers.
His stats are average enough where he can still win after being hit with a speculum.

He does lack a ward, but with M10, and fast cav, he should be able to get to where you need. If cannons are a problem, drop him in a unit of Chaos Hounds; since the Steed is a beast.
It's clearly not as choppy as a chaos lord, but it's a more all around tactical build.
Besides, a 20" marching Hell Shrieker can win you games after you've assassinated your opponents BSB.


-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:If cannons are a problem, drop him in a unit of Chaos Hounds; since the Steed is a beast.

But when ridden by the sorcerer it becomes a cavalry model, so no LOS! anyway.

Dig the build though, I remember seeing combat s.lords more often in 7th but I guess the availability of big wards and all infantry all the time has people cowering their wizards in bunkers. Go fig.

- Salvage

Didn'r the plucker pendandt specifically say it gives the ward against riders too, i don't have the book on hand right now so might be wrong i just remember it mentioning mounts and riders.

Nope, specifically says "models that have the Fly special rule".

...I think...that comment, then, answers it.

I suppose there's still the issue of "model" in the PPA's wording. The rider may not have Fly, but the mount does...


I got nothin'.

Seems like another one for the FAQ.