Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I want to start a discussion on Skaven magic. How much luck have you had with which spells.

Let's start with ruin:

Skitterleap: good for special purposes.
Crack's Call: Sort of like a cannon against armies like lizardmen. Good if your enemy is encamped in a building. Against elves, lackluster
Warp lightning: Good for its cost
Death Frenzy: Good if your unit is huge and in combat now or soon. It can make your opponent panic
I forgot the name: -1 to shooting is awesome

Plague:

Plague: Awesome, a unit killer
Wither: Also awesome. It's permanent, that's the key word
Cleanse with filth: Decent
Vermintide: Lackluster. I am not impressed.
Pestilent Breath: I like it for usage on the Plague Furnace or Screaming Bell

I forgot one from each school: I don't remember if it was good or not.


Spell of the 13th: Good unit killer. It is awesome against cavalry or some high-priced unit. It could be a game changer.

I lean towards using plague with a seer or a Vermin Lord. Obviously Plague Priest or Warlocks are force-fed a school.

Thoughts?

plague is almost always universally better.. -1 to shooting means little because everyone has dropped BS based weapons except for like repeater crossbows or weapons that do no damage anyway

Death frenzy is worse now in 8th due to step up attacks.. and warp lightning is fine, but better for level 1-2s..

Generally I go with 1 Ruin, 3 plague (if you get scorch keep it, ditch others for skitterleap).. Plague just has all around good spells (ditch vermintide or breath for 13th spell)

Just to clarify the rules, are you allowed to roll first and then choose to ditch one for an appropriate legal choice?

Also, in the FAQ, they said a Grey Seer can ditch to get either Skitterleap or 13th spell, not both. 1 ditch option only.

I usually play with a Grey Seer with 4 spells from Lore of Ruin and a level 1 Warlock Engineer, the Engineer rolls first swap the spell out for warplightning, then I roll spells for the Grey Seer and thanks to duplicates means you can pick a spell I usually end up with the ones I want. Skitterleap, Scorch, Cracks Call and Curse of the Horned Rat.
I keep a trio of cheap-cheap Engineers with Brass Orb, Doomrocket and Deathglobe that I try and skitterleap into position to unleash their lethal weaponry.

While Plague is really nice, most spells is rather short ranged and can be lethal to your own troops and I preffer keeping my Grey Seer away from trouble or on a Screaming Bell.
Though if I ever decide to use a Vermin Lord it will be using Lore of Plague.

And yes, you can exchange one of the spells you roll for the mentioned spell in the wizards entry. For Grey Seers you can indeed only choose one of the two mentioned spells, as its written in the Rulebook

I generally prefer Ruin to Plague. Plague spells tend to have a much shorter range than Ruin, which means the first couple turns tend to not see much done.

-Ruin-
Skitterleap: Very situational spell, but perfect if you bring along a few suicide Warlocks. I also find it useful for sending a killing machine character to go see to some warmachines lurking around. It is also a helpful precursor to other spells, which may require better positioning (e.g.: Crack's Call)

Warp Lightning: Fairly average. It's got a low casting level which is nice, but d6 hits isn't always reliable and the chance to hit yourself is sorta meh. Still, it's a staple spell for a reason...

Howling Warpgale: Doesn't just impose a -1 to shooting (which is awesome, as skinks are annoying), but also grounds fliers which would otherwise race up to your more vulnerable units like war machines or weapons teams. No complaints here when I get this spell.

Death Frenzy: +2 attacks is never a bad thing, even with step up it increases the hurt your units are putting out and helping win Combat Res. Even Slaves are something to worry about when a 5 wide unit is getting 20/21 attacks. Now, it's amazing when combined with Bless with Filth, but we'll get there...

Scorch: S4 Flaming small template that causes a panic test with just a single wound. Not the flashiest or most exciting spell, but it definitely gets the work done.

Crack's Call: A situational spell depending on your terrain and opponent. With no buildings and against HEs, your best bet is to try to character snipe since you control the line's direction. You can also use it to lay waste to chariots and war machines who always need a 5+ regardless of I.

-Plague-
Pestilent Breath: Template range and only S2. Against even goblins you're wounding on 5+ to start. Doesn't allow armor saves though. If you can get this to hit a unit of knights or something, awesome. Against hordes though it's somewhat less useful. D6 hits in CC is nice, but skaven casters (bar the Vermin Lord) tend to be a bit squishy.

Bless with Filth: Poisoned attacks are excellent, even if this spell only applies to CC attacks. It removes an entire step from the attack process, forcing your opponent to make more saves. If you can combine this with Death Frenzy, any unit becomes a whole lot scarier. 20/21 poisoned attacks...

Wither: -1 T for the rest of the game. Not much bad to say about this spell really. Expect this one to burn up some Dispel Scrolls.

Vermintide: Fairly lackluster, honestly. 3d6 S2 hits that allow armor saves on any unit touched by the large template, but in a 4d6" line. Yeah, you might touch a couple units, but it can hit your own units, is wounding on S2 (so generally 5+ or 6+), and allows armor saves. Can be used in CC for 3d6 S2 attacks on a single unit, but overall I'd rather have Pestilent Breath I think.

Cloud of Corruption: Meh. 12" range, hurts your own units, has to roll to wound and causes d6 hits. S5 which is nice, but still, with the way skaven tend to clump and block together, the Vermin Lord is really the only guy getting good mileage out of this spell.

Plague: Our version of a Dwellers or Pit type spell. Model based T test or take a wound. Can be cast into a multiple combat for some serious fun, especially if you've got a huge block of slaves tying up several units. The chance to "pass it on" is certainly skaveny and gives you a chance to hit multiple units with a "T or die" spell. The risk of hitting your own units is definitely offset by the chance to put that much of a hurt on your foes. Sadly allows for magic resistance, which most Dwellers/Pit spells skip, but enh, that's what we get for an older army book I suppose.

-13th-
Dreaded 13th: What really needs to be said about this spell. It can only effect infantry (no cavalry or monstrous infantry), but gives you a chance to get a small unit of clanrats. I've started moving away from this spell somewhat. As points per game gets higher and unit sizes get bigger, this spells loses a bit of its punch. Still, against high defense units, this spell is hands down the best way to drop them. No magic resistance, no ward saves, no nothing. *Bam* you're a rat. Its high casting value though means you're generally IFing this spell (either normally or via power scroll), which can have some seriously bad side effects (like losing the spell as your Grey Seer is suddenly a L0 dunce riding a Bell...) It's pretty much a spell I always take, if nothing else it definitely forces your opponent to consider his dispel pool more carefully.

Edited for spelling.

Plague spells may have short range but 2 of them can win you the game.. Where as Ruin has some okay but tame spells (Granted cracks call can win vs lizards)

I rather be able to use a power scroll or throw 6 dice and win the game as opposed to causing some random hits that prob wont matter a whole lot

8th ed is all about going big or going home

Iratus - remember that WL counts as an allowed duplicate (because you have a mage the 'lock, who can always swap for it) meaning that him rolling first does nothing - if you roll warp lightning on your level 4 you DONT get to swap it out.

I would just like to add as a comment for the dreaded 13th that it can be really effective against thing likesuper characters (slaan or teclis) in a small group or by themselves, throw enough dice at it to give a good chance for undeniable maybe you lose your magic or blow something up but it's worth it to get rid of some of these guys.

Kirasu wrote:Plague spells may have short range but 2 of them can win you the game.. Where as Ruin has some okay but tame spells (Granted cracks call can win vs lizards)

I rather be able to use a power scroll or throw 6 dice and win the game as opposed to causing some random hits that prob wont matter a whole lot

8th ed is all about going big or going home

You might consider ruin spells tame, but they can win games as well. Skitterleap sets up all kinds of nasty combos, Howling warpgale can ground troublesome fliers (as a WoC Sorc on a Disc found out when he got run down by plague monks), and death frenzy makes even slaves nasty.

Really for Skaven, Ruin is for our utility, and plague for damage.

That last comment is dead on, Shivan. I agree whole-heartedly.

I generally tend to favor Plague myself, but that's because I prefer to get in there and mix it up.

Skitterleap is a wicked spell, in my opinion. It can set you up for the offensive, sure, but it's saved my Seer more than a couple of times (once my Gutter Runners take out their war machines, of course).

Deathfrenzy's a lot of fun. I don't think Step-up influenced this spell at all though; you might not be able to stop the attacks coming back at you, but your guys won't be killed before they swing, either.
I think the big thing with 8th is to try and kill them faster than they can kill you; even the Dwarfs have turned away from their turtle-style lists. Deathfrenzy just makes this situation even more prominent.

Scorch is a buffed-up Stone Thrower that doesn't miss. I think it is a very solid spell. Very scary.

Plague is unreliable, but "only" getting one unit to make the test is okay too.

Cloud of Corruption is more situational; few hits, but at high S with no armour means you'd be best using this against lots of armoured infantry.

...Vermintide, however, is not all that good. Lone wizards, perhaps, but that's about it. And other spells would work better.

The Dreaded 13th Spell is not nearly as devastating as the other Big Spells from the book lores, but it is always devastating. High S, T, or I doesn't mean a thing. So you won't be nuking huge units with it, but you will always be able to take a chunk out of even the scariest ones.

The other stuff you all have covered quite well. Those're my two warptokens.