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So I have a bunch of the old Tactical terminators that I'm converting over to TH/SS terms, and my question is.

If I just took off the storm bolters, and gave them shields, could I leave the power fists and just use them as a thunder hammer? Eventually, the terms will get hammers, but in the interum, are regular old fists okay as a counts as?

You might be able to proxy it in a friendly game, but it probably won't fly at your local hobby store unless your opponent agrees before the game.

You probably won't even have much issue at the hobby store. Just be up front about it.

This assumes that they are all the same, so to reduce confusion.

Proxy only works smoothly, as said above, when it is uniform so to avoid confusion on your opponent's behalf. That said, fists should be fine...good luck finding right-handed storm shields, though.

Best way i have found to do this is tape a number to the model, and write the numbers on a 3x5 index card with the equipment of the model (make sure you have 2 copies so you can give your opponent one)


P.S. I made my own storm shields out of used gift cards. he plastic is fairly thin, but still rigid enough for the job.

Counts-as? No. Proxy? Probably.

Proxy/Counts as, pretty much the same thing.

So using your old Squat models as counts-as Imperial Guard is a proxy job, is it?

In this case it does seem like a proxy, though. Unless there's a good fluff reason (they're battle-brothers of the Imperial Hammerfists chapter) or some degree of conversion performed upon the fists themselves, you're absolutely proxying.

Except that proxy and counts as mean the same thing.

DeathReaper wrote:Except that proxy and counts as mean the same thing.

Eh, not quite. Proxy can be anything from "these orks are space marines" to the suggestion in this thread. Counts-as is generally something more like "all power fists in this army are converted, and count as thunder hammers" or "All these custom weapons count as X".

Essentially this is correct, but in tabletop wargaming the concepts are a little different. A case of 'counts as' is typically a justifiable 'replacement', such as a guardsman with a converted jerry-can+grenade=demo charge, or autogun bits in place of lasgun bits because they are functionally identical anyway. A proxy is a temporary replacement for when you want to try something out, or cannot afford or acquire a suitable WYSIWYG or counts-as bit of wargear.
A soft drink can or an unassembled pile of bits sitting on a base is a 'proxy'. A rebel grot army using the Tyranid ruleset is a 'counts-as'. Recently I've fought against a Trygon that was a proxy stand-in for a Void Raven Bomber... it was not intended to be a permanent addition to the army and only 'counts as' the model it is replacing in the most literal sense.

I'm not saying you're wrong, that's just how the gamers I ve associated with use those terms. In some circles it may well be the opposite.

I am proxying TH/SS terminators with these nid 40mm bases without the nids on them.

These 40mm bases count as assaut terminators with TH/SS.

same is same where I come from. but YMMV

to the OP, just be sure to let your opponent know what is what and I doubt most players would have a problem with it in friendly games.

I've always looked at 'proxying' being temporary, ie a Carnifex becoming a Trevigon, and 'counts as' being permanent, ie I use the Black Reach Nobz as 'Ard Boyz.

UltraPrime wrote:I've always looked at 'proxying' being temporary, ie a Carnifex becoming a Trevigon, and 'counts as' being permanent, ie I use the Black Reach Nobz as 'Ard Boyz.

So, when exactly during your games does the Carnifex become a Tervigon?

Or was that some other 'temporary' you were talking about?

Warboss Tufgrim wrote:
So, when exactly during your games does the Carnifex become a Tervigon?

Or was that some other 'temporary' you were talking about?

Carnifexes sometimes need gender reassignment too you know...

Temporary as in: "So uh, I want to try out this new unit this game, but I don't have the model, so this Carnifex represents [x]."

But yes, officially you can't do that because of WYSIWYG. Of course, if you make proper conversion you might be able to fly with that. However, in friendly games, as long as you tell me before hand, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Warboss Tufgrim wrote:

UltraPrime wrote:I've always looked at 'proxying' being temporary, ie a Carnifex becoming a Trevigon, and 'counts as' being permanent, ie I use the Black Reach Nobz as 'Ard Boyz.

So, when exactly during your games does the Carnifex become a Tervigon?

Or was that some other 'temporary' you were talking about?

He has to grow up sometime

DeathReaper wrote:I am proxying TH/SS terminators with these nid 40mm bases without the nids on them.

These 40mm bases count as assaut terminators with TH/SS.

same is same where I come from. but YMMV.

The two are different as far as GW is concerned, and within the larger context of wargaming. The difference is exactly as Artik_Ferangi broke it down.

Counts-As is a permanent and logical subsitution, consistent throughout the army and done intentionally in a way to not be confusing for opponents and to be (hopefully) just as visually-appealing as the usual model. It's also a traditional way to legally field models which no longer have their own rules- like using a whole army of Squats as counts-as IG.

Proxying is just using a non-representative model as a stand in for the actual model, without necessarily any particular rationale, special modeling work, or consistency involved. Soda-can drop pods, unconverted Valkyries standing in for Storm Ravens, "This guy's lascannon is actually a missile launcher, but the other lascannons in the army are really lascannons", empty bases, etc.

Sometimes the line is close- like the Powerfist/Thunder Hammer question in this thread. I'm not a super fan of this idea as a rule; an army which has access to THs also has access to Fists, and it could be confusing for an opponent. Generallly you want all such substitutions to be consistent throughout the army; so if you were doing this, you'd want to make sure there were no "real" TH models in the army, and ALL PF models in the army actually represented THs. As long as you did that, and clearly explained the substitution to your opponent before (and reminded if appropriate during) the game, it should be okay.