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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
RG CT only really helps certain units. I have not seen anything amazing from them this edition TBH.

Compared to SALAMANDERS? Raven Guard at least gets use in tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Salamanders are fine.

I agree. Their CT is a very solid one that has it's uses for sure. The only problem with them is that they are over shadowed by the broken -1 to hit CT (That I wish was just removed and replaced as it's always an auto take outside of very specific builds) and Guiliman armies.

It really doesn't. It doesn't increase damage output by a lot for an army already lacking in the offense department, whereas Raven Guard and at least Iron Hands help in the durability department more where Marines lack. Shame Iron Hands have a bad Warlord Trait and Strategem. Their relic isn't TERRIBLE at least?

Getting re-rolls for an important weapon for every unit + the synergy it has with a banner ancient is a solid chapter tactic especially when you compare it to the majority of chapter tactics found in most armies. It's a better one that is over shadowed by ones that are auto picks. In my opinion the Salamander CT is the first amongst non-competitive options. It's not a tournament winning CT, but it's not a bad one either. It's solid, but not top tier.

Do you think RG is top tier competitive?

 Primark G wrote:
Do you think RG is top tier competitive?

I think they have some top tier options like aggressors murdering every screen in existence T1 which has it's place. I do not think they are tip top tier competitive however because the units they are drawing from are bad and they don't have Guiliman to buff them up to acceptable levels and even he is losing power as times goes on. I would still say for certain though the RG outperform Salamanders at a higher end level of play, but neither will be winning the LVO.

 Primark G wrote:
Do you think RG is top tier competitive?

Outside Roboute Castle, that's all the army has going for it yes.
1. Helps against gunline armies, which are the most popular
2. Have a Strategem that helps with several weaknesses of the Marine army in general
3. The Relic is okay-ish. Warlord trait sucks though outside the one Knight with the Flamer.

The only Chapter Tactic I consider worth anything outside them is Imperial Fists due to them being a hard counter towards Jormung and Dal'yth armies.

I do not think RG are top tier - not even close TBH. Deathwatch however is really good now and running two battalions with BA for some scouts and smash captains is realy good.

 Primark G wrote:
I do not think RG are top tier - not even close TBH. Deathwatch however is really good now and running two battalions with BA for some scouts and smash captains is realy good.

Nothing about the Vanilla codex is top tier now. If you want to compete, though, your choices are Roboute castle or Raven Guard. Simple as that.

Not RG. Sorry they just don't cut it.

 Primark G wrote:
Not RG. Sorry they just don't cut it.

And Salamanders do?

Neither is top tier by Salamanders are not as bad as you try make them out to be.

Salamanders trait would be good if normal Marines were worth taking, and single shot special and heavy weapons were worth their points costs. Maybe someday they will be.

Free heavy or special for 5 man squads, one of each for 10 man squads and tacs and salies would be in a much better place.

Or just change rowboats ability to allow mixed chapter detachments to retain their chapter rules (he wrote the damned codex!) re-roll 1's w/in 12" for all astartes and drop his points back to his original cost and we've got a winner.

A couple points adjustments and marines wouldn't be the complete dumpster fire that they are now.

bananathug wrote:
Free heavy or special for 5 man squads, one of each for 10 man squads and tacs and salies would be in a much better place.

Or just change rowboats ability to allow mixed chapter detachments to retain their chapter rules (he wrote the damned codex!) re-roll 1's w/in 12" for all astartes and drop his points back to his original cost and we've got a winner.

A couple points adjustments and marines wouldn't be the complete dumpster fire that they are now.

but if they aren't a bigger dumpster fire than primaris marines then no-one will buy and play primaris, oh wait they arn't exactlly storming the competitive lists anyway because NO one is taking a dumpster fire up against Aldari Cheese with a hope of winning.

Salamanders require you to build your list differently. If you just doing gunline shooting you aren't going to gain much benefit from the CT because your just going to be layering in the captain and LT.

Salamander CT allows for positional flexibility, build for it. Own the board.
I've also found that Salamander CT is most effective for squads of two high damage single shot weapons.

I've won my last 9/9 games using the Salamander CT and MSU/Decentralized units

Vilehydra wrote:
Salamanders require you to build your list differently. If you just doing gunline shooting you aren't going to gain much benefit from the CT because your just going to be layering in the captain and LT.

Salamander CT allows for positional flexibility, build for it. Own the board.
I've also found that Salamander CT is most effective for squads of two high damage single shot weapons.

I've won my last 9/9 games using the Salamander CT and MSU/Decentralized units

If you're going to play salanders, that's the way to do it. Melta, Las, and plasma weapons become much more effective with the salander tactics, and you don't need HQs around like you would with other chapters. It makes things like bikes and attack bikes much better, and even makes units coming down it drop pods in 2x5 man squads almost decent.

If they fixed the marine cost to durability ratio, made Las and melta a bit better, and reduced the cost of transports, salanders tactics would be pretty good as the offensive and flexible cheapert that doesn't need HQs as much. It's just not currently enough to carry them past their marine-ness in a competitive 8th edition environment.

Yeah salamanders are for MSU squads and dreadnoughts. Primaris guys don't have specialists in their squads so they gain an awful lot less, though still > nothing.

Part of the issue is a bit of a lack of other good HQ choices, besides chapter masters and lieutenants. If they existed, then Salamanders would provide a great opportunity to take them. Librarians are ok but nothing much else works. I guess you could look into unusual stuff like chaplain dreadnoughts and rhino primaris.

One way to look at marine chapter tactics is that they arguably give you quite a lot of freedom. None are spectacular, so there are no really bad options either. I've run a Crimson Fist Primaris force at a load of tournaments and been able to compete with just about everything. The CT isn't great but it's far from useless, while a Primaris chapter master with the fist of vengeance relic is a fantastic HQ for his price. The army has high-tier firepower and doesn't tend to crumble in cc, and I've still got hope for the list if the next chapter approved helps it out a bit.

Mandragola wrote:
Primaris chapter master with the fist of vengeance relic is a fantastic HQ for his price.

Hate to burst your bubble but p sure you can't do that... There no way to give a Primaris Captain a fist for them to replace with the relic

 Brother Payne wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Primaris chapter master with the fist of vengeance relic is a fantastic HQ for his price.

Hate to burst your bubble but p sure you can't do that... There no way to give a Primaris Captain a fist for them to replace with the relic

My bubble is doing just fine, thanks. See the codex FAQ:

Page 141 – Primaris Captain, Wargear Options Change the second bullet point to read: ‘This model may take a power sword, or replace its master-crafted auto bolt rifle and bolt pistol with a power fist and a plasma pistol.’

This is what the “Store Birthday” primaris captain is armed with. It’s slightly annoying to have to pay for a plasma pistol as well (though he hasn’t ever yet blown himself up... yet) but well worth it for the Fist of Vengeance. He’s got 5 attacks base, potentially up to 7 with might of heroes and the warlord trait that gives +1A on the charge. Proc Honour the Chapter (or only in death…) and things tend to die in a big way, especially if the Librarian has managed to cast Null Zone.

Most of the time of course he is just there to buff my shooty units, and that’s really fine. He only costs 106 points, after all. But when needed he can pop out and knock over a pesky knight or something. He’s not quite up there with BA smash captains, but not all that much behind, and he’s cheaper. Paired with either a Librarian or Lieutenant (or both) he does consistent high damage. For best results, heroically intervene into a unit of shining spears that didn’t declare him as a target of their charge.

Mandragola wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Primaris chapter master with the fist of vengeance relic is a fantastic HQ for his price.

Hate to burst your bubble but p sure you can't do that... There no way to give a Primaris Captain a fist for them to replace with the relic

My bubble is doing just fine, thanks. See the codex FAQ:

Page 141 – Primaris Captain, Wargear Options Change the second bullet point to read: ‘This model may take a power sword, or replace its master-crafted auto bolt rifle and bolt pistol with a power fist and a plasma pistol.’

This is what the “Store Birthday” primaris captain is armed with. It’s slightly annoying to have to pay for a plasma pistol as well (though he hasn’t ever yet blown himself up... yet) but well worth it for the Fist of Vengeance. He’s got 5 attacks base, potentially up to 7 with might of heroes and the warlord trait that gives +1A on the charge. Proc Honour the Chapter (or only in death…) and things tend to die in a big way, especially if the Librarian has managed to cast Null Zone.

Most of the time of course he is just there to buff my shooty units, and that’s really fine. He only costs 106 points, after all. But when needed he can pop out and knock over a pesky knight or something. He’s not quite up there with BA smash captains, but not all that much behind, and he’s cheaper. Paired with either a Librarian or Lieutenant (or both) he does consistent high damage. For best results, heroically intervene into a unit of shining spears that didn’t declare him as a target of their charge.

Huh... well there you go. My apologies, must've skipped over that one. In that case then yeah, I can see the fist relic on him being decent

No worries, it’s a pretty obscure one. One of the major problems for Primaris marines (at least in the vanilla codex) is that they don’t get access to most of the relics – which is why crimson fists become an interesting exception. If there was a model with a power axe instead then I’d probably be advocating Iron Hands... though I wouldn’t then be able to have my captain wave an ork’s head around in his fist.

It’s kind of mad that even BAs take ordinary captains for their smash captains, because Primaris ones hit so much less hard with their absent weapon options. I’ll be interested to see whether anything changes in the space puppy book – it looks like there’s a battle leader with a frost axe at least.

 Primark G wrote:
Do you think RG is top tier competitive?

Raven guard can rock and very very strong binary list. That isn't top tier of course because they fail to get that first turn and they lose.

They're as strong as you get for codex space marines though

Hi just a quick question. I play UM and usually play against Tau DG and other marines. I’ve heard conflicting ideas about whether to run units as larger full squads or lots of smaller units. Was just wondering what people thought. Even if it was a mixture of both depending on the opposition

If you think it'll help give you less drops sure. Otherwise continue doing MSU.

Vilehydra wrote:
Salamanders require you to build your list differently. If you just doing gunline shooting you aren't going to gain much benefit from the CT because your just going to be layering in the captain and LT.

Salamander CT allows for positional flexibility, build for it. Own the board.
I've also found that Salamander CT is most effective for squads of two high damage single shot weapons.

I've won my last 9/9 games using the Salamander CT and MSU/Decentralized units

With Salamander CTs, multi-meltas suddenly become a decent dreadnought option, and hunter-killer missiles are less of a waste.

Hunter Killers are mostly available on units that don't actually benefit being Salamanders. So not sure how that's a selling point.

Also they don't make Multi-Meltas good because they are a bad weapon in general. 27 points for 1 shot and a -1 on the move, which most Dreads are doing.

Large units are good for 2 reasons. 1) More models being buffed for targetted abilities and 2) More protection (i.e. Devastators). The biggest downside to large units would be a weakness to morale and less chance of getting more CP. UM at least reduce the risk of the former.

I'd say the appropriate size of the unit is very much predicated on what the unit is.

Tactical marines? 5 man squads
Devastators? Maxed out special weapons, with ablative wounds.

For Devastators, I'm of the mindset that you need to buy a Marine after every weapon after the second.

So either 5 man with 2 Heavy, 6 man with 3 Heavy, or 7 man with 4 Heavy. Seems to have worked really well so far.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
For Devastators, I'm of the mindset that you need to buy a Marine after every weapon after the second.

So either 5 man with 2 Heavy, 6 man with 3 Heavy, or 7 man with 4 Heavy. Seems to have worked really well so far.

Agreed. Seems like a good setup to me.

Ablative wounds for dev squads are critical. Not only does it add extra wounds before you have to start reducing effectiveness, but it also can mindgame the player into shooting other power armor squads because they have to chew through extra bodies before getting to the good stuff. Especially if the devs are in cover (which they should be) and the other less valuable squad isn't.

When I run Vanilla Chapters I go RG too, so those extra ablative wounds, in cover, with a -1 to hit can cause some good mind games if you give PSA's "Just wanted to remind you these guys have a lot of defensive ability. I hate it when I forget stuff like that."