Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Short one this. Does Marinus Calger get +1 attacks for two close combat weapons (his matching power fists) or is that inclued in his profile?

4 attacks or 5?

Help!

It's actually a pretty long question, but the easy part first...

If a unit has the extra attack included that is usually mentioned so it's safe to assume Calgar's A value is his base before any bonus.

Then the long part - people still argue about him and a few other models due to the wording on close combat weapons in the main rulebook. Models with 2 different special CCWs never get the extra attack ("such is the penalty of wielding too many complex weapons"). Some think a model with more than two CCWs can choose which two weapons to use (and thus possibly get +1A) while others think the penalty of never getting the bonus is from having two different special CCWs to start with.

Mainly because, if holding 2 special weapons prevents you getting the bonus because of the complexity, holding a 3rd seems an unlikely way to get round the "complexity" issue.

I've never thought about his power sword! i've always just asumed it was more for looks (like the guns on the back of the aobr warboss). but thanks for such quick replys i think i'll take it that he does get the +1 attack and the his sword is just cosmetic (although if a battles going bad i do declare his not happy and his getting his sword out lol ).

His sword isnt cosmetic, as (if you look at his rules) he HAS a powersword - he can use it to strike at I5, for example,instead of at I1.

Oh now i'm confused??? now there's loads of ways of taking that

1- he has 4A at I5 with S8

2- he has 5A at I1 with S8

3- he has 4A at I1 with S8

4- he has 5A at I5 with S8

5- he has 4A at I1 with S4

6- he has 5A at I1 with S4

etc, etc, etc

this is why i love & hate warhammer in equal measure!

RAW no he doesn't get an extra attack because he has more then 1 different special weapon.

Primarch Of The 2nd wrote:Oh now i'm confused??? now there's loads of ways of taking that

1- he has 4A at I5 with S8

2- he has 5A at I1 with S8

3- he has 4A at I1 with S8

4- he has 5A at I5 with S8

5- he has 4A at I1 with S4

6- he has 5A at I1 with S4

etc, etc, etc

this is why i love & hate warhammer in equal measure!

Nope, you just havent read page 42 properly.

When in close combat you pick A weapon to fight with. A single weapon. ALL OF YOUR ATTACKS are made using that weapon and any bonuses / penalties associated with it.

So he can choose to fight at I5, with 4 attacks at S4 using the power sword
He can choose to fight at I1, with 4 attacks at S8 using the power fist.

Either way he has chosen to use one combination of weapons, and so NEVER gets the +1 attack.

There's a time and a place, this wasn't either really.

.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Primarch Of The 2nd wrote:Oh now i'm confused??? now there's loads of ways of taking that

1- he has 4A at I5 with S8

2- he has 5A at I1 with S8

3- he has 4A at I1 with S8

4- he has 5A at I5 with S8

5- he has 4A at I1 with S4

6- he has 5A at I1 with S4

etc, etc, etc

this is why i love & hate warhammer in equal measure!

Nope, you just havent read page 42 properly.

When in close combat you pick A weapon to fight with. A single weapon. ALL OF YOUR ATTACKS are made using that weapon and any bonuses / penalties associated with it.

So he can choose to fight at I5, with 4 attacks at S4 using the power sword
He can choose to fight at I1, with 4 attacks at S8 using the power fist.

Either way he has chosen to use one combination of weapons, and so NEVER gets the +1 attack.

FWIW, there is a long-standing debate over this rule, as the rulebook fails to explain rules for models with more than 2 CCW.

Nos (and many others) argue that the rule stating that if you have more than 2 special CCW, you never get a bonus attack applies all the time. Myself (and many others) argue that that rule is specifically applying to models with 2 CCW and models with 3+ CCW could still get a bonus attack.

There's no solid answer you'll get on the forums, so you'll have to rely on the old standard "Talk this over with your opponent or the TO"

Except models with 3 CCW also have 2 CCW (same as you can roll doubles when rolling 3+ dice, for example) and so the rule applies....

Generally it's safer to take the least advantageous interpretation of a rule when there is some debate.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except models with 3 CCW also have 2 CCW (same as you can roll doubles when rolling 3+ dice, for example) and so the rule applies....

Generally it's safer to take the least advantageous interpretation of a rule when there is some debate.

Except it doesn't matter if they have 2 different special weapons, It only matters what they are using/wielding.


Using/wielding the powerfist and power sword to make your attacks, no Bonus attack.

Using/wielding dual powerfists nest you a +1 attack as normal for 2 powerfists.

Making the choice means never gaining the +1 attack.

Which you ignore in every thread where this comes up, despite being reminded of it on every occasion.

Seriously, if wielding 2 complex weapons stops you getting an attack as they are complex, how does adding a 3rd complex weapon possibly help?

It doesn't help or hurt, as it is irrelevant.

When Calgar attacks at initiative 1 he is using two power fists. He gets the bonus attack.

The only time you are given a choice in what weapon you use you are only allowed to use 1 weapon not 2; and of course the only time you are given a choice as to which weapon to use is when you have 2 different special weapons.

Monster Rain wrote:It doesn't help or hurt, as it is irrelevant.

When Calgar attacks at initiative 1 he is using two power fists and fumbling with his power sword. He does not get the bonus attack.

I agree with Nos and the others ragarding raw, rai however..That said I would let Calgar and Eldrad get thier bonus attack whenever playing someone with those models

Monster Rain wrote:It doesn't help or hurt, as it is irrelevant.

When Calgar attacks at initiative 1 he is using two power fists. He gets the bonus attack.

No, he has to choose to use EITHER the powerfist, the powerfist or the power sword.
Meaning he has had to choose whcih weapon to attack with and does not get the +1 attack.

If you are stating he does not need to choose then you deny the existence of the two special weapns, which is slightly less than stellar as an argument.

No, the choice is irrelevant. At the time the attacks are made you assess the weapons used.

Incorrect. He had to CHOOSE to use the powerfists in order to not strike at I5.

Thus he has chosen whcih out of the 2 differnt special weapons he will be using

Thus he will NEVER gain the +1 attack

Serioulsy, your argument is he just "forgot" about the power sword and so never chose to use the powerfists instead of the power sword, it just magically happened?

Your wrong Nos. He chose two of the same special weapon ie the power fists. He gets +1 attack. Calager is equiped with three special weapons. Two power fists and a power sword.

Mountians and mole hills my friend.

nosferatu1001 is not wrong any more than you are.

There are not rules for fighting with 3(+) special weapons.

If you use the rules for 2 of them, the second and third can never apply.

You are correct in that I am not wrong. You might want to read the blurb on pg 42 about fighting with two special weapons. In this case that would be two power fists.

Also, do you get another attack for using a pair of lightning claws?

Did you read what you just wrote?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:There are not rules for fighting with 3(+) special weapons.

If you use the rules for 2 of them, the second and third can never apply.

whill4 wrote:You might want to read the blurb on pg 42 about fighting with two special weapons. In this case that would be two power fists.

You did notice that he has three special weapons, and that was the page I was refering to?

Editing to add:
A much simpler argument is that the Gauntlets of Ultramar are a single weapon that is treated as a pair of power fists.
Think, people!

I did notice he has three special weapons. In fact I wrote the same in an earlier post.

The Guantlets are not treated as a pair of power fists they "are a matched pair of power fists".

Are you going to answer my question about lightning claws?

whill4 wrote:I did notice he has three special weapons. In fact I wrote the same in an earlier post.

Then why are you saying the rules for 2 special weapons allow him to use multiple special weapons and gain the attack bonus?

As for LC, only with a second LC, as the rules say.


Edited out a line from another question


Automatically Appended Next Post:

whill4 wrote:The Guantlets are not treated as a pair of power fists they "are a matched pair of power fists".

It is a single weapon entry. Or are you thinking the bolters attached get 2x the shots listed?

Exactly like the lightning claws Marneus has two power fists. He doesn't use the power sword to make his attacks but instead he would use two power fists. Two of the same special weapon.

whill4 wrote:He doesn't use the power sword to make his attacks but instead he would use two power fists. Two of the same special weapon.

So, again, you are using the rules for a model with 2 special weapons, that disallow bonus attacks if the model has a special weapon of a type other than first, to allow a model with three special weapons to claim a bonus attack despite having a special weapon of a type other than the first?

this question comes up very frequently in YMDC and is always a heated discussion with the same arguments from the same people back and forth. if you use the search function, you'll see dozens of siblings of this thread.... or just wait two weeks and the thread (like yours) will pop up. something not mentioned is that if your local store/home club/tourney/whatever uses the INAT FAQ (see the link on the top of dakka), they have ruled you *DO* get the extra attack the last time i checked.

tri wins.

The only way he gets any extra attacks is if you think of it this way: he isn't carrying three discreet special weapons. He's carrying a power sword and the "Gauntlets of Ultramar." He has to choose which of his two special weapons to use. When he uses the power sword, his attacks ignore armor saves, and when he uses the Gauntlets of Ultramar, he has two matched power fists, granting +1 A. Even that's a little bit shaky, though, and in a formal setting, I'd rule that he can't get extra attacks, for the reasons mentioned above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:tri wins.

Also, epic win!