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I have been using my Puma's to great effect and they are turning out to be the bane of many an allied opponent. I am working on an Aulfklurings list with some nice support. Anyone tried this list or have one that works...I am LOOKING for some ideas and so pointers and what to run and what not too.

Its Aufklärungs by the way... And a little known fact is that the 'Puma' nickname was applied by the Germans to ALL 8-wheeled armoured cars, not just this one. Post-War it was only the 234/2 that became associated with the name 'Puma'.

Why not base it on a real formation? But if you want to use Pumas you are limited, as so few of them were made compared to other armoured cars. The Puma was only in production from September 1943 till September 1944, with 100 (and a test vehicle) being made. The Puma was only issued to five or six of the Panzer Divisions...

2nd Panzer Division (25)
7th Panzer Division (6)
20th Panzer Division (16)
Panzer Lehr (25)
1st SS Panzer Division (16)

There is the possibility that 9th SS Panzer Division 'Hohenstaufen' received six of them.

All of the above accounts for 94 vehicles with the remaining six likely to have been issed to 1st SS to replace losses in time for Wacht am Rhein.

Apologies I cant help you with your FOW query though...

I read some the history but didnt remember all the facts, as far as the game goes, BF put out a late war PDF on the Aufklärungs co. I am looking at the numbers and you can field an entire Puma company if you got the models. I am looking at them as a cheap fast striker with some good anti tank back up and even a king tiger or two, so well see. I will post my list as soon I as I get it hammered out.

Also Panzer Lehr Division was the only division to receive a Full company of the "Puma
" 234/2

No... 2nd Panzer also recieved a 'full' complement, but only if the panzer division followed the 1943 'A' organisation.

If they followed the 'B' organisation, then 20th and 1st SS also had full complements...

The two different organisations for Panzer Divisions, had differing amounts of vehicles required.

Nothing is ever simple where the germans are concerned...

you Sir obviously had done your home work...but I still like them in what ever amount I can get them, and I am sure that my evil Aufklärungs company idea will make many peeps mad...LOL

Me too... They are dealy little beasties! I have two for my Normandy Germans!

Big P wrote:Its Aufklärungs by the way... And a little known fact is that the 'Puma' nickname was applied by the Germans to ALL 8-wheeled armoured cars, not just this one. Post-War it was only the 234/2 that became associated with the name 'Puma'.

Why not base it on a real formation? But if you want to use Pumas you are limited, as so few of them were made compared to other armoured cars. The Puma was only in production from September 1943 till September 1944, with 100 (and a test vehicle) being made. The Puma was only issued to five or six of the Panzer Divisions...

2nd Panzer Division (25)
7th Panzer Division (6)
20th Panzer Division (16)
Panzer Lehr (25)
1st SS Panzer Division (16)

There is the possibility that 9th SS Panzer Division 'Hohenstaufen' received six of them.

All of the above accounts for 94 vehicles with the remaining six likely to have been issed to 1st SS to replace losses in time for Wacht am Rhein.

Apologies I cant help you with your FOW query though...

Its Aufklärung by the way, no "S" on the end

Thanks for bringing this up, i've looked over the pdf, and it does have some good options there. I may decide to do this list after i have done My Schwere List. The pdf is here: http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/Documents/Briefings/Aufklarungsabteilung.pdf

The list I am looking at is the following, it will have speed and flexibility...and some nice punch....but well see how it goes.

50 PTS- HQ: PUMA 234/2
160 PTS - HVY PANZERSPAH (8-RAD) 2 PATROLS
150 PTS - PUMA 234/2 PLATOON
150 PTS - PUMA 234/2 PLATOON
150 PTS - AUFKLARUNGS 7.5 CM PAK 40 ANTI-TANK TEAMS X 2
215 PTS GRENADIER PLATOON X 3 SQUADS W PANZERFAUST SMG CMD TEAM
220 PTS 10.5 CM MOTORIZED ART (2 SECTIONS)
135 PTS - LIMITED AIR (Ju 87G STUKA'S)
225 PTS - 8.8 CM FLAK 36 GUN X 2 TEAM W/ LOADERS
285 PTS - STUG G ASSAULT GUNS X 3

@ 1740 PTS



Well there it is, let me know what you think about it....and its Out of the Panzerspah PDF

Aldramelech wrote:Its Aufklärung by the way, no "S" on the end

Not to be overly pedantic, but there actually is an "s" on the end in this context, since it's referring to an Aufklärungsschwadron (note the double "s").

Not according to the Professor of German Language (who is German) who was reading this over my shoulder when I posted that

Aldramelech wrote:Not according to the Professor of German Language (who is German) who was reading this over my shoulder when I posted that

No offense to the professor, but perhaps he doesn't understand the context. It's somewhat difficult here, because we're mixing German words with English words. You can use the word Aufklärung (without the "s") in some contexts. However, in this case, I would argue that you'd keep the "s" in English, since it's being derived from a compound noun that has an "s".

In German, the term for a "Reconnaissance Squadron" is Aufklärungsschwadron, with the double s. You probably wouldn't say "Aufklärung Schwadron" in German, but would rather use the compound noun. Most people in English just say "Aufklärungs Squadron," and I'd argue it's more correct than "Aufklärung Squadron," since it's being derived from a form that has an "s" at the end anyway. If you're saying "Aufklärungs..." in German, why would you say "Aufklärung..." in English?

I don't speak German but SHE (OOOO You naughty sexist boy you, assuming the Prof was male! ) Said at the time that the "S" on the end makes no sense whatsoever and that the word has no literal translation into English, the nearest you can get (I think she said, Ive slept since then) was "Enlighten".

Besides I find it best not to argue with the academic staff as a rule, especially when their female, German and doing my boss!

Guys, i understand your arguments about the name, but can we get back on topic? Thanks. Any, the list looks good. The Flak 88s will be good to keep those air strikes off.

Who died and left you in charge?

I'm not saying i am in charge, i just said lets get back on topic and stop arguing about that. I believe this topic was to help a player to start a new flames of war army, not to argue over some name. So lets help him out instead of quarrelling.

No one was quarreling, there was some good natured banter for a couple of posts, my last post on the subject was going to be my last post on the subject and I don't believe Hordini was going to say anything else either, so your little intervention was not required, not necessary and not needed.

If there is one thing about the internet that gets up my nose is people running around on boards like this admonishing others when its not their thread, job or business. I'm quite sure if anybody had anything else to say on the subject that they would have done so regardless of the banter between some of us.

If your so fond of telling people off go become a teacher or something, us adults will cope here just fine without you.

Is it worth waiting for the updates to the lists before jumping in?

I know I'm waiting for the 1st, 9th and 10th SS Panzer lists to be redone before I make any changes to my army, generic Panzergrenadiers with some 9th SS elements.

@ Big P: When is is assumed that 9th SS received their Pumas?

I am not sure about all the FUSS its just a game, I really like the puma's. I really like the recon units ... they play well. I am using 6 puma's in Lehr Panzer Grenadier list and they are taking names and causing a lot of havoc. I wanted to run the above list in a tourney this weekend, but I was told the PDF's are broken and need to be revised. I still would love to see a better Panzerspah and Aufklarungs lists in these new books, or update the PDF's.

I use 8.8's alot and they never seem to truly pay off. They are good for area denial and they will drop tanks when given the chance but unless there cheap RT Luftwaffe or something of the like I don't like them. I would drop them pick up some small A.A and add some more tanks or you could drop the 8.8's and the air support and pick up some heavy tanks etc.. It's just my 0.02 but I would consider it,I do like 8.8's but most of the time there points can be put towards something alot better. Good luck though!

pdfs are broken? never heard of that before.
There are new lists for Aufklarung and Panzerspah in Earth and Steel.

I run with:

Panzerspah Lehr (Earth and Steel)
1750

HQ- Puma - 50
Puma x3 - 150
Puma x3 - 150
Puma x3 – 150
Sd Kfz 233 (7.5cm) x3 – 145
Armoured Sd Kfz 7/2 (3.7cm) AA x3 - 180
Panther x3 – 560
Auflarung Lehr (3 squads) – extra HT – faust – 260
Neb 41 x3 – 105


1750

there are a few reasons why I like the 8.8's , they seem to draw a lot of fire allowing your nimble armored cars to zip around the battle field. They are very likely to knock out heavy tanks...and most tank armies aren't going to give 6 shot a turn AT 13 guns their sides or rear's to chase armored cars. They hit in AA on 3's, and have saved my very lightly armored cars from aircraft. I have seen the list from Earth and Steel, but the PDF's are better and give you more options. I was told on the Forums that the PDF's are usable in Tourney's

If they have worked out for you then You can continue to use them, they do draw alot of fire, and yes some tanks will not be able to put out as high AT, But they will drive attention away from your Armored cars and on top of that they are not immobile, so they can also move with you light armored cars, as it is true the 8.8 can shoot at Aircraft In my experience I rarely Run into to it and when I do Its generally ineffective, your army seems to go forward and attack so keeping that in mind You need to drop the guns, there are plenty of ways for them to be ignored 1) your opponent can just hide. 2)they can be smoked out and then be completely ineffective,tanks however You will not always be able to hide from, you can move them out of smoke And more importantly you can move fire you tank then stormtrooper behind cover to avoid return fire giving them more of a survivability, Also your best defense from air is to be spread out a fair amount to avoid him getting alot under the template, as for tanks I would suggest a tiger or 2 if not panthers and if you cannot get the points brumbars are nice, atleast give this a try

Most of the good options are still in Earth and Steel though and lots of German stuff got cheaper, especially HT infantry and arty. Sure you dont get air support anymore, but its not that big of a deal.
No reason why anyone should say you cant play with the pdfs though.
I have to agree with TheCadianParatrooper on the 88s though, I personally wouldnt trust them as my only heavy AT asset and they arent all that helpful on the attack (which you will be doing half of the time as mech) as they cant move.

I have been using the 88's as an integral part of my maneuver element. They are a steady base of fire and have at times killed more than my mech combined. Yes they have a glass jaw, but so does light armored vehicles. I still think that when used properly there awesome

I have been using the 88's as an integral part of my maneuver element. They are a steady base of fire and have at times killed more than my mech combined. Yes they have a glass jaw, but so does light armored vehicles. I still think that when used properly there awesome

At times I'm Sure they Have however tanks, Either medium or heavy can do things just as well if not better by being mobile able to avoid enemy fire and actually fight in combat if needed. They are worth there weight in gold, 8.8's however although good , cannot do any of those things and could be knocked out easy.You asked for Advice and this is the best I can Give Puma's are good and Fast the rest of your army need to be in sync with that.

George Spiggott wrote:

@ Big P: When is is assumed that 9th SS received their Pumas?

There in lies a can-o-worms!

From my (fallible) memory most sources mention the Puma's 'saw action n Normandy'. They were most likely the last delivered of the divisions, so if one source is correct then they were delivered sometime between the return given on 1st March 1944 and that on 1st June 1944.

The problem arises in that alot of sources assume that the reference in the returns is for Puma's when it may refer to normal 8-wheeled armoured cars.

I will check Zetterling tonight, as although he has a few mistakes, his analysis of the vehicle returns for Normandy are the most accurate.

Im pretty much on the side that 9th SS did have these in Normandy, as the photos I have seen pretty much back up the claims. What Im not so keen on are the assumptions that 9th SS had them for the fighting around Arnhem... Im still out on that one.

But as I said, the above is from memory. I will check out a few things over the weekend and try and find a definitive answer for you.



Not too sure on 88s in a recce company, slow to move, heavy and generally not a recce asset!!! Nor late-war Stukas! The Luftwaffe was rather well known for its abscence during the last two years of the war! And as for motorised artillery in recce... Im guessing this is allowable by the rules rather than following historical precedent?

(Sorry if that sounds anal... I tend to be a little as Im used to gaming WW2 based on historical formations... which aint to everyones cup-o-tea)

Battlefront - Re-writing history since 1992

Well we have been doing that since WW2 finished...

Do they list 234/2 for Arnhem? If so that is a bit of artistic licence... But I guess if you make the model, then you gotta sell them! My only issue is that I wish the history would be correct, if not for anything else but out of respect to those that fought there. Im fine with allowing fictional games, hell all wargames are fictional really, and Im happy with it in lists, but just a note to say what the reality was would go down well with the anal rivet counters like me that worry about such things as Puma production levels and Tiger turning circles...

The 234/2 Puma must be the most over represented vehicle in German armies! I know we have 8 in my club alone... On the scale of games we play, thats nearly half the entire production run... LOL!