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I have read around recently that Eldar suck. This is no news really. Even the biggest Eldar fanboy know's he is fighting an uphill battle when the 5th ed. armies hit the table. I am bummed about this as I have always collected figs that were either gifts or models I got because they looked cool. So my personal collection can never hope to put up a fight against a competative tier 1 list building perfectionist. I am also very aware of the dragon-wagon/prism approach any army that wants to stay reasonably competative seems forced down, and of how many people say that our troops are overpriced and underpowered (myself included). Well, it's the wee hours of the morning and I am taking a break from chainsmoking my way through a new recording, so I dug out the ratty old photocopy and started a list that I think looks scary to me.

On the upside: wave Serpents are still good, as are fire dragons, Eldrad, Cheap autarch/farseer minimised HQs, Bladestorm w. doom, Prisms, Fortuned Avatars, Wraithwalls, cheap warwalkers... did I miss any? Most anything else is either done better by more commonly played armies, or completely useless due to overpointsing. So our codex contains about 15% reliably competative units, why not just use those?

So my first attempts at a list of things I think would be challenging vs all comers especiallly the standard 1850 bring whatever does best sort of lists: I would have to borrow a few serpents and avengers, prisms, but more importantly, all of the power-army people it would ever beat in a tournament would probably consider it 'cheesy', and be voted down on these 'soft score' things I have seen people gripe about (like unorigional unit selection especially). I am of the opinion that even playing an army that is not 'tier 1' any more should get a guy out of that category. I don't play tournament level at all for lack of models, money, or interest, but I read about some super competative stuff people come up with whenever I look around here on dakka.

Eldar vs. schmacktalkers: Sorry we don't have multiple wargear upgrades for our models, and no multiple wound squads anyway so we can't go saying we are origional for giving our 5th nob stikbomz instead of a bosspole, or our third TWC a meltabomb and bolt pistol instead of a chainsword - yeah very origional (obviously taken for variation and characterfulness, not the coincidental side effect of wound allocation shenanigans.). Please don't count us out for sportsmanship or army design for spamming, it's our only option.

So the end result of what I consider the best spammable stuff in a U.S. standard 1850 point tournament list ended up looking like this:

HQ:Farseer, doom, runes of warding, spear
98

TR: DAx10, exarch, bladestorm, shuricannon serpent
247
247..
247...

TR Pathfinders x5
120

EL: Fire Dragons x5, shuricannon serpent
180
180..
180...

HS: WWalkers(3) shuricannons
120

HS: Prism
115

HS: Prism
115

----1850

Are we dumbed down this far to the most basic elements of viable units to even bother with? I would like to know what some of you guys think is a savior list for Eldar non-suck-ness. Swooping hawks were my favorite models, but I would be an idiot if I pretend they are more than just an overpriced gimmicky toy.

Well personally, I don't think Eldar suck at all. Sure, they may have one of the older codices, but every unit in the Eldar codex can be deadly if used correctly against the right enemy.

You mock Swooping Hawks, but I onced used a squad of Six hawks with Sunrifle to take an entire squad of guardsmen in a single turn of fire. In the battle, they managed to get rid of 40 guardsmen (killing enough to make them flee out of battle).

The basic elements of the Eldar codex are good, yes, but one does not need to stick to those in order to win a battle. If you're good enough, you don't need to follow the mechdar or footdar trends, or spam War walkers with shuricannons. I run a mix between foot and mech dar at 1000 and 1500 points, and it has not failed me yet.

There is no "savior list for Eldar non-suck-ness". It all comes down to your skill at being a general.

I would add some chaos spikey bits and cut the tops off of my skimmers.

Then, get rid of those darn spirit stones and lets start the party back in Commorragh!

But really, IMO Mechdar are the way to go if you're going to play Eldar.

I dont like mechdar and i am completly agreaing with Lord Rougekiel. I like running Yriels as well he is a strong hitter and if you put him in a squad with a farseer and about 1 or 2 warlocks with Enchance than he is virtualy unstopable. Unless he gets by a las cannon..... Only way i ever lost him besides to a carnifex. str 10 herts. And unless your aponent is only running tanks and no troops than the list you have put out is gona loose. Your war walkers will die because you have no CC and its not fast enough to run away because you dont have any transports. Good luck wining.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:
You mock Swooping Hawks, but I onced used a squad of Six hawks with Sunrifle to take an entire squad of guardsmen in a single turn of fire. In the battle, they managed to get rid of 40 guardsmen (killing enough to make them flee out of battle).

This is not surprising since your six hawks with a sunrifle cost twice what an IG squad costs. I like hawks really, I wouldn't mock them, just their points cost. I think skyleap is awfully fun to play around with, but face it they cost way too much, meaning likely smaller squads, and are easily killed or reduced to worthlessness by a single turn of being shot at.

Well, my squad cost 168 points, and tbh I think that is still less than 40 guardsmen. Admittedly though, they are expensive.

It is true that Eldar squads are fragile, but that is why good tactics are needed. I would never commit hawks against a which they will not be able to seriously maim in a single turn, because otherwise they will die. Either way, some of your squads are going to die. You cant make an omelette without breaking eggs as they say. Imo you just need to decide which of your units will be the ones who will die.

For example, deep striking hawks or spiders into the heart of the enemy may not give them long to live, but it will be a massive distraction, which will allow my other troops to move in. I actually think that Eldar are one of the best armies out there, if used correctly. A single wrong move can spell disaster, but if you don't make any, then there's no problem.

I have heard all of that before, about just not making any screwups, and it is idealistic and noble to believe in this. Reality I have experienced is a bit different than idealism though, and when there's only so much room to maneuver on a 4x6 table, maneuverability is not as advantagous as having cheap durable hard hitting troops. I will still play them (when I actually play, which is seldom) but we are now able to be outmaneuvered by many list builds too that have maneuverability and cheap durable hard hitting troops. We have maneuverability and hard hitting troops, but definitely not cheap or durable too.

I like your optimism, and will ignore the suggested assumption that it is just bad generalship and put it like this analogy: if most of your football team is in wheelchairs, being a great football coach won't make your team likely to beat a lousy coached team in good health - maybe more likely to not lose as badly, or somehow manage a draw, but not likely to win a game.

This is what it feels like to me looking at some of the power-build teir 1 armys and the things they have access to. Being flawless in execution gives me a chance of beating a power codex, but even the dumbest general with a power codex will have a chance of taking me apart no matter how flawed his play.

I feel like the Necrons and Tau got shelved and dusty too in their own ways. When there are FnP bubbles everywhere nowadays, that 'we'll-be-back' just isn't very special any more. When everyone can run, our fleet isn't as special either, tau got hammered from being masters of jump-shoot-jump to the new TLOS making it far more difficult to keep them safe. These armies used to have strengths. Now their strengths are just common, or made obsolete by edition rules changes (rending change killed harlequins, vehicle move/shoot rules killed falcons, etc)

Yes Eldar are weak. This is for the reasons you said in the OP. I hate it when people try to say that Eldar are still strong, still as good or better than the new codicies, where the math simply doesn't add up.

Weak Stats + High Cost + Cool Gimmicks = Eldar.

Look at banshees. T3 with a 5+ save at 16 points a pop, the only way to get them to survive long in a game is to shove them in a 150+ point transport, which is just as much as the damn squad. And for what? Power weapons hitting at S3? A few expensive upgrades and you can get them Furious Charge! Woo!

Compare them to Penal Legion. Seriously, do it. For value, penal legion gak all over banshees, and penal legion are not even a popular unit in guard cause there are so many better alternatives!

Scorpions vs Assault Marines is pretty much the same - they serve the same role, cost almost the same, but marines have a 4-statline to our 3's, and have jump packs.

If you play Eldar well, very well, with a good list, and manage to roll well, you can do well against certain lists. Mech Eldar will lose to every single guard army that spams vendettas, because in turn one each vendetta can pop a serpent, almost guarenteed, worth more than itself. And then spend the next 4-6 rounds blasting away whatever they feel knowing they've earned their keep. And that's before you even look at the rest of their army.

I love Eldar, but before we can start making fun lists that use more than a select few units spammed hard, we are going to need a new codex. And given that new forgeworld aspect warriors are out, and a new D-cannon grav tank, its a sure sign we're due for some love soon, whether its a codex or just a new imperial armory entry.

Until then, I'll play my jetbike/dragonwagon spam list and beat up all the chaos space marines and necron players I find, and all my friends who haven't discovered transports yet (sigh, fools...).

A few expensive upgrades and you can get them Furious Charge! Woo!

They dont get fourious charge... thats harlies.
They get Counter-Assault

I like what the OP is pointing out.

Eldar are pretty bad right now. Sure we can get a 4+ rerollable ward, but thats it. With Grey Knights coming thats a no win situation in tournaments for sure.

Dark Eldar do everything Eldar does but better. Sure, they have AV 11 instead of AV 12 and energy fields, but ya know.. 75pts assault transport with darklances would be nice for my scorpions or banshees, which are worse in every way than the Dark Eldar equivilants.

Screw 40k. This is why I mostly stick to fantasy, although I wistfully hope that GW gets over space mans. The only bright side for Xenos lists is seeing the power level that Dark Eldar were given. Maybe the rest of the Xenos can benefit as well.

TehScat wrote: Look at banshees. T3 with a 5+ save at 16 points a pop

4+ actually. And yeah, Str3 power weapon attacks. But 3 of them for each banshee if you've bought counter-attack on the exarch for 5 points.

TehScat wrote: a new D-cannon grav tank, its a sure sign we're due for some love soon, whether its a codex or just a new imperial armory entry.

I must say the shadow spectres look quite nice, but the D-cannon tank is useless. Its a D-cannon on a falcon... worth 125 points.