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Not Online!!! wrote:
How is there still hope when gw started to Cut daemonengins because they got too many sheets for space marines in use? It's fairly clear from where the wind blows, especially when we contextualise this.

Because they have a real hard-on against FW units, and have for years. GW isn't just a silo'd company, the rivalries between departments are bitter.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
How is there still hope when gw started to Cut daemonengins because they got too many sheets for space marines in use? It's fairly clear from where the wind blows, especially when we contextualise this.

Because they have a real hard-on against FW units, and have for years. GW isn't just a silo'd company, the rivalries between departments are bitter.

It still doesn't excuse the special treatment. Arguably there's more diffrence between csm legions than there is between loyalist marines and yet the former got feth all and removed options whilest the later once again doesn't? It will even have contemptors when csm gets none anymore!

I'm not defending anything GW has done RE: FW units.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think that's a gross misrepresentation of what's going on.
But, to reiterate:
Did people truly think that Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc. wouldn't get their own get-you-by rules to start the new edition? That any and all Marines would be lumped into a single set of rules and that'd be it until the Codices arrived?

Well, the big problem here is that it is only Marines

You know, GW never misses an opportunity etc.

We had the same in the past, when people used the Codex SM to play BA/DA/SW because the other Codex was outdated and/or the rules in Codex SM fit the fluffy armies better than the original one (remember 5th Edition when Ravenwing was hidden behind Special Character with a model not liked by a lot and not allowed in most events so people used the Codex SM White Scars option to play it, or 4th Edition were Codex SM Terminator Command Squads would to Deathwing better than Codex DA)

Hence Marines can always chose from all options Marines get and even CSM players take that options because they don't get them (haven seen more people playing WE with Codex Space Wolves than using the CSM or Daemonkin rules)

I expected a little bit better from GW for the Index, at least for those armies not expecting a Codex in the first wave
But no need rage about it, things are going to change soon anyway

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Special treatment for Marines isn't new, but it's a new axis on which Marines have favor. Oh look, they get it upon launch.

Is it special treatment though?

Again: Is anyone seriously entertaining the idea that at the start of 10th there wouldn't be rules for Space Wolves or Deathwatch?

Yes it's special treatment.

Rules for SW or DW do not necessitate custom detatchments, especially detatchments that non SW or DW can use.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Rules for SW or DW do not necessitate custom detatchments, especially detatchments that non SW or DW can use.

And if they'd been factions rather than detachments, what then?

Something I'm currently worried about is that Death Guard might be losing Possessed. The reason that I am saying this is that for the DG Rhino datasheet, they aren't listed as one of the units that are excluded from being able to be in the transport. The reason why I find this worrying is that they have traditionally not been allowed to be in Rhinos, so this exclusion of them from this list has me worried.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Something I'm currently worried about is that Death Guard might be losing Possessed. The reason that I am saying this is that for the DG Rhino datasheet, they aren't listed as one of the units that are excluded from being able to be in the transport. The reason why I find this worrying is that they have traditionally not been allowed to be in Rhinos, so this exclusion of them from this list has me worried.

Well you know what they say: No mode, no rule.

No but seriously, that'd suck. And I think it's far more likely that they'd take Possessed away from the DG completely than make a non-huge Nurgle Possessed kit that you can put in a Rhino, sadly.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Something I'm currently worried about is that Death Guard might be losing Possessed. The reason that I am saying this is that for the DG Rhino datasheet, they aren't listed as one of the units that are excluded from being able to be in the transport. The reason why I find this worrying is that they have traditionally not been allowed to be in Rhinos, so this exclusion of them from this list has me worried.

Well you know what they say: No mode, no rule.

No but seriously, that'd suck. And I think it's far more likely that they'd take Possessed away from the DG completely than make a non-huge Nurgle Possessed kit that you can put in a Rhino, sadly.

The thing is, there are Possessed models, so it makes no sense for there to be no rules.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Something I'm currently worried about is that Death Guard might be losing Possessed. The reason that I am saying this is that for the DG Rhino datasheet, they aren't listed as one of the units that are excluded from being able to be in the transport. The reason why I find this worrying is that they have traditionally not been allowed to be in Rhinos, so this exclusion of them from this list has me worried.

Well you know what they say: No mode, no rule.

No but seriously, that'd suck. And I think it's far more likely that they'd take Possessed away from the DG completely than make a non-huge Nurgle Possessed kit that you can put in a Rhino, sadly.

The thing is, there are Possessed models, so it makes no sense for there to be no rules.

There aren't Death Guard PoxFester Plaguessessed models though...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Rules for SW or DW do not necessitate custom detatchments, especially detatchments that non SW or DW can use.

And if they'd been factions rather than detachments, what then?

I actually thought that's what they'd be doing at index level initially. They explained each army would have it's own faction rule and detachments, then showed a preview image of the chapters with a separate index.

They muddied the waters with "it won't matter what colour your marines are any more" statement, which is more true to what we got in the end.

So eventually we circle back to: the snowflake chapters exist as marines +1 due to getting extra stuff for nothing lost as per the last 3 years, or they return to individual factions when their codex comes and GW invalidate their own statement.

Irrespective anyone with purple space marines comprised of core units can arguably use them as any book they wish, much as it's always been.

Dudeface wrote:
I actually thought that's what they'd be doing at index level initially. They explained each army would have it's own faction rule and detachments, then showed a preview image of the chapters with a separate index.

You and me both!

Dudeface wrote:
They muddied the waters with "it won't matter what colour your marines are any more" statement, which is more true to what we got in the end.

Ha. That's a good point. Hadn't thought of it that way.

I'm surprised that anyone could be surprised at these Chapters getting their own rules.

People expected chapter specific units not get rules?

Why people still think gw wants to burn money for fun?

tneva82 wrote:
People expected chapter specific units not get rules?

Why people still think gw wants to burn money for fun?

I don't think anyone expected chapter specific units not to get rules, but they likely either expected that the relevant chapters would either be siloed rules wise or not have special detachments at all. We got neither and instead just have extra detachments for fun at this point.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Rules for SW or DW do not necessitate custom detatchments, especially detatchments that non SW or DW can use.

And if they'd been factions rather than detachments, what then?

Well for starters, Space Marines would still be getting too much focus.

But being completely separate factions would probably help with the SM detatchment slurry situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

I'm surprised that anyone could be surprised at these Chapters getting their own rules.

Nobody is surprised by these chapters getting their own rules. What's surprising is how they are going about it.

Me personally, I did NOT expect special units to not get rules. Of course they will get rules. The reason I chimed in was because some people were arguing that more-than-one-detachment for SM in general wasn't unfair. I still think it's a bit unfair. However, I'd prefer if everyone got more than 1 detachment to start with.

I then offered an alternative that I thought had some merit, and got made fun of. So, y'know.

But it was never that I didn't expect BA, SW etc. to have their special *units*.

Of course Space Marines get more representation. This is 40k. Marines getting lots of stuff is one of the universal constants, such as them getting first Codex. That's just reality.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Some people just don't have interest in Wulfen or Thunderwolves, it isn't rocket science.

Yeah that's me, I prefer mjod drinking space vikings over Lord Canis Wolfington of the Blackwulf clan.

Hecate wrote:
Me personally, I did NOT expect special units to not get rules. Of course they will get rules. The reason I chimed in was because some people were arguing that more-than-one-detachment for SM in general wasn't unfair. I still think it's a bit unfair. However, I'd prefer if everyone got more than 1 detachment to start with.

I then offered an alternative that I thought had some merit, and got made fun of. So, y'know.

But it was never that I didn't expect BA, SW etc. to have their special *units*.

So codex has more tools than index. And water is wet.

This is what happens in total resets. Tough. Then again those who had 9e codex had advantage vs those with still 8e codex.

It's gw game. You are always behind until codex for edition comes. It's so given you have better chance of seeing sun rise from west.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think that's a gross misrepresentation of what's going on.

But, to reiterate:

Did people truly think that Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc. wouldn't get their own get-you-by rules to start the new edition? That any and all Marines would be lumped into a single set of rules and that'd be it until the Codices arrived?

No.

What we thought was that BA would be told that Sons of Sanguinus was the ONE specicial snowflake detachment they were allowed to use until their dex dropped.
That DA would be told that the Unforgiven Task Force was the ONE snowflake detachment they could use until their dex dropped.
That SW would be told that Sons of Russ was the ONE detachment they could use until their dex drops.

etc.

Note: None of us would have been surprised that ANY of the snowflake factions had been told that in addition to the ONE snowflake detachment they were allowed to choose, they could ALSO opt for the Generic Gladius.

This still would have been unfair, because it would give them two choices instead of one, like everyone else... But at least it wouldn't be six choices to everyone else's one. There still would have been people doing "counts as" just as they do now... But this shift eliminates the need for "counts as" because now, if you're using your Blood Angels models with SW rules, they don't count as Space Wolves. They're still Blood Angels.

Here's why that might matter more to me than some of you:

Let's say you're playing Space Wolves in a Crusade campaign. You've spent a lot of your RP on raising your supply limit, so your roster has 2k points worth of units; 500 of those points are faction locked to Wolves, but the other 1500 points are units that all Marine chapters could use. Another player in the game has spent most of their RP on Requisition strats (whose affects are permanent in Crusade, hence the RP cost) or other unit upgrades. Their roster only has 1000 points.

These two players meet for a game on the snowy plains of Fenris. Their GM informs them that the battle will be fought during a 100 year storm, and as such, the Low Visibility Theatre of War rule is in effect, reducing visibility to 12" for shooting attacks.

The SW player, knowing he can't bring all 2k to the fight, decides to leave his bespoke Wolves back at the drinking hall for the battle and use the Sons of Sanguinus Detachment for this battle, since he knows close combat is going to play an even larger role than usual due to the blizzard conditions.

Now under the 9th rules, you couldn't "count as" here, because the bespoke Wolf units, despite not being at the battle ARE on your roster, and therefore your army is not a "Counts as" BA army. But under the 10th ed rules, you're not only ABLE to do this, you're encouraged to do it.

Unless crusade your faction gets chosen at the start of crusade. So you had space wolves as your faction? Changing to ba mid crusade no different to swapping tson to death guard

tneva82 wrote:
Unless crusade your faction gets chosen at the start of crusade. So you had space wolves as your faction? Changing to ba mid crusade no different to swapping tson to death guard

According to a statement in the preview, you can actually switch SM factions, or, to better say, the SM sub-factions are irrelevant and basically only exist to trigger some Detachment restrictions. Whether this statement reflects the truth or not remains to be seen, but the official army creation rules in the core rulebook don't quite support it.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think that's a gross misrepresentation of what's going on.

But, to reiterate:

Did people truly think that Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc. wouldn't get their own get-you-by rules to start the new edition? That any and all Marines would be lumped into a single set of rules and that'd be it until the Codices arrived?

Was it likely? Sure.
Is it gonna happen? Now we know for sure, yes.
Does that make it sit right, that Loyalist Marines are shown blatant favoritism over every other faction in the game? No.

I suggest you get used to it.
It's been like this for 30 years & it'll be like this for the next 30 years.
Complaining about it is pointless because wether or not you like it, the fact is that SMs are what the whole 40k IP is anchored on. It's not going to change.

ccs wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think that's a gross misrepresentation of what's going on.

But, to reiterate:

Did people truly think that Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc. wouldn't get their own get-you-by rules to start the new edition? That any and all Marines would be lumped into a single set of rules and that'd be it until the Codices arrived?

Was it likely? Sure.
Is it gonna happen? Now we know for sure, yes.
Does that make it sit right, that Loyalist Marines are shown blatant favoritism over every other faction in the game? No.

I suggest you get used to it.
It's been like this for 30 years & it'll be like this for the next 30 years.
Complaining about it is pointless because wether or not you like it, the fact is that SMs are what the whole 40k IP is anchored on. It's not going to change.

Yeah. Surprise surprise gw favours bigges cash maker that basically keeps light on.

If marine revenues drop every other army gets even worse resources as it's marine profits that keep gw up.

It's gw.

PenitentJake wrote:

Here's why that might matter more to me than some of you:

[SPACE WOLF CRUSADE EXAMPLE]

Now under the 9th rules, you couldn't "count as" here, because the bespoke Wolf units, despite not being at the battle ARE on your roster, and therefore your army is not a "Counts as" BA army. But under the 10th ed rules, you're not only ABLE to do this, you're encouraged to do it.

I think this is a very well spelled out example. Setting aside for a minute the initial discussion regarding how many detachments people get in Index hammer, if we are to assume this game takes place some time into 10th ed and both players have several detachments available to them, would it still bother you if the SW player took the detachment if the detachment was called "Hammer of Wrath" instead of "Might I have a cup of blood tea sir?" or whatever the BA detachment is called?

Me personally I like the flexibility in changing detachments, and I assume Crusade will let you change detachments. I dislike that Faction flavor was oddly pushed into detachment rules, instead of faction rules. I'm still puzzled as to why they wouldn't give each of the flanderized chapters their own faction rules, and let them take any detachment Space marines can.

(I also think that SW in particular will get some sort of close combat furious charge type of detachment (or one based on the old counter-attack) in their own codex/supplement in the future.)

Personally, im not really concerned about marine players pivoting their detachments mid crusade or immediately pre-game in a casual environment, because that basically requires to be running a generic marines list that isnt really "leaning into" any of the options properly. I & the people i play with dont really show up to my gaming club with every marine model we own, then write a list out once we have secured a game with someone, we show up with a pre-perpared list and just those models, and trying to pull those sort of last minute detachment shenanigans seems like a lot of effort for only moderate return.

To me, the issue is likely to come form the ease of pivoting to a unbalanced detachment when one of them drops (I say when, no if, because with 6 different sub-faction codecii, each with at least 2 detachments, SOMEWHERE theirs going to be an unexpectedly strong combo that slipped through).

Say, when the Dark Angels codex drops, one of the detachments is actually a little OP. The ability of marine players to rapidly "slosh" into it with basically nothing more than a declaration and a small tweak or two to their existing lists could suddenly make a (relatively) small imbalance far more oppressive on the meta due to the sudden explosion of players exploiting it. Then, when that specific detachment is nerfed, the meta chasers can slosh over to the next OP detachment that's in the new deathwatch codex, or the Blood angels, or a balance dataslate adds a buff to the "not imperial fists" detachment and now everyone is a son of dorn, etc.

thats where i think this system might fall down. if most factions are limited to 4-5 detachments, but marines can easily shift between 20+ it becomes easier for what would be a tolerably strong gimmick in any other faction to be really oppressive if your facing it every other game.

Yes, horizontal options are a form of power. Usually not as strong as vertical options, but having a bigger 'hand' to choose from is very much an advantage.

---
I'm just surprised that people are surprised. Its how I thought things were going to work from the first article on detachments (back at the end of March):

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/30/how-army-building-works-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

Detachment choice will very rarely be tied to an army colour scheme. So while Ultramarines might be the theoretical and practical masters of the Gladius Task Force, other Chapters can use it too – and the same will be true of many other detachments as they are added into the game. This also means that you can try multiple Detachments with a single army. You are not going to be locked into a single Detachment just because you painted your army blue, or red, or yellow.

That seemed obviously aimed at SM chapters, and detachments not being 'color (chapter)-locked'. \shrug.

Man, I wish they had previewed the Warhound and the Necron Titan.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
Personally, im not really concerned about marine players pivoting their detachments mid crusade or immediately pre-game in a casual environment, because that basically requires to be running a generic marines list that isnt really "leaning into" any of the options properly. I & the people i play with dont really show up to my gaming club with every marine model we own, then write a list out once we have secured a game with someone, we show up with a pre-perpared list and just those models, and trying to pull those sort of last minute detachment shenanigans seems like a lot of effort for only moderate return.

To me, the issue is likely to come form the ease of pivoting to a unbalanced detachment when one of them drops (I say when, no if, because with 6 different sub-faction codecii, each with at least 2 detachments, SOMEWHERE theirs going to be an unexpectedly strong combo that slipped through).

Say, when the Dark Angels codex drops, one of the detachments is actually a little OP. The ability of marine players to rapidly "slosh" into it with basically nothing more than a declaration and a small tweak or two to their existing lists could suddenly make a (relatively) small imbalance far more oppressive on the meta due to the sudden explosion of players exploiting it. Then, when that specific detachment is nerfed, the meta chasers can slosh over to the next OP detachment that's in the new deathwatch codex, or the Blood angels, or a balance dataslate adds a buff to the "not imperial fists" detachment and now everyone is a son of dorn, etc.

thats where i think this system might fall down. if most factions are limited to 4-5 detachments, but marines can easily shift between 20+ it becomes easier for what would be a tolerably strong gimmick in any other faction to be really oppressive if your facing it every other game.

I actually think that's a strength. You can ban that detachment without outright banning armies. That's an extreme step. On the other end of it GW knows exactly where the imbalance exists and can address it.

They really have it in for the Phantom. What used to go toe to toe with warlords now disappears one round of shooting...

3 belicosa wounds reduce it to 1 wound, and it's failing half its invuln saves...

They really decided that the more you pay the better it is....