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All changes updated in Blue!!
[Edit: as of 3/27 all bold removed, will mark all subsequent changes in blue!]

Long story short of how the idea came into being, but suffice to say I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to make an army of... get ready for it...

Dwarven Airship Pirates!!


Of course, I couldn't just use 'Copters and count them as Little Airships... oh no, I need a big old centerpiece model, with a Dwarven Engineer-Captain standing proudly at the helm, the wind blowing his beard out behind him! And so, even as I begin to gather the pieces to build this monstrosity, my fiendish little mind (in more ways akin to a goblin or a Skaven than a dwarf!) began to craft rules for this behemoth! But I can't do it alone! Here's what I have so far... tell me what you think!!


Here's the stat line:
Airship: M6/ WS-/ BS-/ S-/ T7/ W10/ I-/ A -/ Ld10
Crew: M-/ WS4/ BS4/ S3/ T4/ W1/ I3/ A 1/ Ld10
Armor Sv: 2+
10 crew members
Thanks to Mgister187 for the stats, here's the reasoning in the spoiler:


It would have a unique special rule though to describe its flying:
Ponderous Hover:
-Moves at its movement value (6") but may not march
-May only be attacked by ranged units and models with the 'Fly' special rule
-When being targeted by a ranged attack, the attacker adds 6" to the distance between the models when determining whether or not they are in range
-May only charge units with the 'fly' special rule, and would cause impact hits like a chariot (albeit D6 S6 hits)
-For all intents and purposes, units without the 'Fly' special rule ignore the Airship's base, they may move through it and end their move on it.
----If an enemy unit with out the Fly special rule ends its move entirely within the Airships base- every model is fully on it- they may not be targeted by the Airship.
-May move through enemy units without the Fly rule as well as difficult and impassible terrain as if it was open ground, but may not end its move on impassible terrain.



And now the fun stuff, how this baby would attack!!
The model would have the same arcs as a normal unit of troops:


-Once per shooting phase, the Airship would be able to fire the equivalent of an Organ Gun from each side arc (broadside!) and a Cannon from the front arc.
-If one of the Organ Guns or the Cannon suffers a misfire, and rolls a 'Destroyed!' result on the misfire chart it may not fire for the rest of the game and the Airship automatically suffers D6 wounds (looses D6 crew) with no Armor Saves allowed.
-Unlike normal war machines, the Airship does not have the Move or Fire special rule.



Options:
-May choose runic items from the the Talisman and Engineering lists with a maximum total value of 75 points. May not take The Rune of Spite, The Rune of Brotherhood, or The Rune of The Furnace. Runes that typically apply to one war machine apply to the entire airship, as well as all the Organ Guns and Cannon.

-May purchase additional up to 5 additional crew for +15 points each, to a total of 15.

-May replace the Cannon with a Flame Cannon for +50 points. If the Flame cannon suffers a 'Destroyed!' result of the Misfire table, the Airship suffers 2d6 wounds, rather than 1d6. (Removes 2d6 crew, rather than 1d6) Always place the flame template at the center of the front of the Airship's base when determining units affected.

In addition, at the beginning of the game, you may choose to have a unit of quarrelers or a unit of Handgunners (made up of no more than 10 models) deploy inside the Airship:
-These units are never placed on the board, nor can they ever leave the Airship, nor can they be targeted specifically by outside units: think of them as an 'upgrade' or as a piece of equipment for the Lord.
-In the shooting phase, that unit may fire from either side arc... but only one! Whichever arc they choose to fire from, the Organ Gun on that side May Not fire in that shooting phase!
-If the Airship is destroyed, they cannot 'escape', just as if they were a part of the Airship, they're lost. They points you spend on them however, do count towards your minimum Core requirement.
-They do not count as crew.



Special Rules:
-It would be considered a Lord, but would also be considered a War Machine in all respects, and be affected by all effects that affect War Machines.
-It would count as the General and BSB in all respects (but may Not take a magic banner! If an army includes more than one airship, randomly determine which is the general and BSB)
-Large Target
-Causes Terror
-Immune to Psychology
-Flammable



Distruction
-If the Airship is destroyed, it scatters 2d6" in a random direction (determined by the artillery die) and crashes to the ground. Any model touched by the Airship's base suffers a S10 hit, with no Armor Saves allowed.
-If the Airship is destroyed, every Dwarf unit able to do so must immediately take a panic test.


500 points



Thank you all of much for reading this wall o' text! As I said earlier, any questions, comments, concerns or constructive criticism would be wonderful!

Not a single response? Please please please, I need your help!! Or is there somewhere better I could take this?

Is this supposed to be an army of airships, or an addition to a dwarf army?

Sorry, got distracted by your avatar picture.......


Anyway, I will give you some general feedback and then address your concerns.

I like the idea quite a bit and helps fill a niche in a dwarven army which is currently void (large single unit). It has flavorful rules and does not seem overpowered by its very nature (obviously, give it a points price of 200 and its ridiculous, but that's not what I mean by overpowered).

Now onto specifics: First, what you say about Lord/Hero slots in outdated, there are no slots in 8th edition, just points and rules about repetition. You need to specify where the points value will allocate (my opinion is it should simply be Lord, since that is more restrictive). That means, likely it will be unavailable in anything less then a 2000 point game, which again is good for balance sake.
Secondly, All WS/BS/Str should be the same as Dwarf Engineers. They are whats will be fighting and shooting, not the ship itself. Movement, Toughness, Wounds and Armour save will reflect the airship (and obviously firepower, which I think you have spot on). Movement wise, I think it should be 6" of movement, but cannot march. Also, give it a special rule that increases the strength of its impact hits.

So, my suggested statline is 6/4/3/3/8/10/2/8/10/1+
Toughness of 8, Wounds of 10 and a 1+ armour save is to reflect the fact that small arms fire would be unlikely to have any affect on something so powerful and large. However, Cannons, Stone Throwers and Magic could also cause serious damage, as well as flaming attacks. I would give it Vulnerable to Fire as a special weakness to reflect that. This would allow it to take 2-3 shots from a cannon, but possibly more.

For that, I think a 475 Point Value would be about right for it, since its 3 warmachines rolled into a far more mobile and resilient package. Possibly increase its BS to 4 or even 5 to reflect the master engineers, but if you do up it to an even 500. This also means you wouldn't be able to field it below a 2k point game.

Anyway, thats my feedback. Good luck, and if you ever make this thing make sure to post pics!

@Banesword: This would be an addition It would essentially be a Lord for the army

@Magister187: Fantastic!! Thank you so much! As you probably guessed by my little lords & heroes faux pas ( ) I'm recently re-entering into the Fantasy hobby, and I havn't read everything as thoroughly as I probably should have...

As to your feedback, again thank you so much!! Everything makes sense and I don't see anything that I disagree with I think I will up the BS to at least 4, it's fairly safe to assume that if the engineers went through all the trouble to build this thing, they would have some of their best shots crewing it!

I know that I would personally like it to move faster than 6", but that's why I came here! I want to make a realistic unit that I can bring to a FLGS and not be overwhelming, or flatly denied!

I'll update the first post with the changes in bold and if (when!) i start to build thins thing I'll post a link here to the plog!

With the unit of quarrelers or handgunners in the air ship you might want to add in something about the artillery piece on the side they fire from cannot fire that turn (or is removed entirely). Otherwise that's a lot of shooting from one arc. Also having it only attack-able from ranged and flying units, though a very cool and realistic option, might be a bit op depending on what you're fighting.

@EmpBobo- Yeah I was rethinking the handgunners/quarrelers last night- I think what you said is a good point and I'm gonna limit the size of the unit to 10... that way from either side arc you can either have a guaranteed 10 shots with the handgunners/quarrelers OR a number of shots between 2 and 10 with the Organ gun- exchange the power of the attacks for an element of randomness...

I think I'm going the keep the flight rules the way they are, one of the things that always bugged me about fantasy is the idea of these flying monsters flying, and landing, and flying, and landing... it just doesn't feel right! Hopefully my opponents will know to target the 'big scary flying thing' with whatever artillery/fliers they have! Do yo think I should change the stat line though? Maybe lower the toughness or save a bit to make it a little more susceptible to small arms fire? (and bows and whatnot? )

One of the things I want to point out is that, unlike many other large monsters in the game, dwarfs have no access to life magic, so any wounds dealt will count. It is also extremely susceptible to magic, and will likely get killed by it in 90% of games you play. I don't really think making it weaker vs small arms fire makes any difference (only versus... I dunno, wood elves and brets? OK and VC might have some issues with it as well.) Other armies, like TK's, HE's, Empire, Dwarves, Lizardmen will really eat this up with artillery and/or magic already.

Hello, love the idea, but I think this would work more like a chariot or maybe a Lizardman stegodon with separate stat lines. The engineers would be your crew et al. Nice idea though

@Magister187- Exactly! I agree with you fully, I was just wondering what he would recommend to change, rather than just saying it was OP
And even VC have ridiculously powerful Wizards if you tool them up right

@Bastion of Mediocrity- I thought about that, but I really want this to be one single large unit.
I want the rules t demonstrate that it's fully enclosed, and sturdy like everything dwarfs make, so you can't target the crew;
I don't want a special stat line for the 'lord' inside;
and I don't want to have to set a number of crew... Just going by the crew for the war machines alone you're up to nine, plus a couple of master engineers, plus the amount you'd need to realistically run such a large craft... you're almost up to 15-20 right there! It's just not practical to have separate stat lines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah! I also don't want to worry about what happens when this thing does crash and burn, and whether or not they can escape.... If it's all one model, it can just be presumed that they all die

I think the toughness is fine at 8 because the empire steam tank is T10 but an airship wouldn't be able to support as much armor and fly so 8 makes sense.

As a different thought, If the airship is always flying how does a cannon's bounce work with that?

@EmpBobo- ummmm... heh the same way it always does? I know realistically from the higher hight, it would most likely just thud and stick, but I'm trying not to make this thing too complicated, so everything is pretty much the same as if it wasn't in an airship

I was thinking the same thing you are but just wanted to bring it up.

This idea is hella cool

@EmpBobo- Great minds think alike

@ImperialTard- Thanks! It's a group effort

I have nothing constructive to add but that friggin rocks!

I'd just give it fly 10 (no marching), and 2 runes of slowness.
Skip the whole can't be attacked thing; if you can catch a great eagle on the ground, you should be able to nab this as well.

Stone throwers will wound on 3's, cannons on 2's, and everything else on 6's (including bolt throwers).
Outside of init 2, it doesn't really have a weakness. Since it's your BSB, that frees up all your hero slots for magic defense.

You really should have an option for the pirate Slayers to crew it.

-Matt

@Luco: Thank you so much!

@HawaiiMatt: Again, thank you for your feedback! [begin ranting]As for the flying, like I said earlier, I strongly dislike the rules for flying in Fantasy, I always have! They display these wonderful aerial battles in their artwork with no way to recreate them in your games! [/ranting]

HawaiiMatt wrote:Stone throwers will wound on 3's, cannons on 2's, and everything else on 6's (including bolt throwers).

Exactly, and stone throwers are almost guaranteed a hit with the size of this thing, and with them doing so many wounds a turn, it will be brought down, realistically, in three turns of shooting, less if you're lucky!

HawaiiMatt wrote:Outside of init 2, it doesn't really have a weakness. Since it's your BSB, that frees up all your hero slots for magic defense

It is flammable, as well as being quite slow... also, you cant play with it in anything less than a 2k point game (500pts and a Lord)... in games larger than that, you would still have less units specifically dedicated to anti magic, or even less options to field them than if you didn't have it, I actually feel like it limits your anti-magic!

HawaiiMatt wrote:You really should have an option for the pirate Slayers to crew it.

Ah, but see, it's really not meant for close combat! And if I did, I feel like it would need a change of stats to reflect that the slayers are now the ones defending the ship, rather than the Engineers! Don't worry, theye will be present in the army if this thing gets off the ground (pun, ha!)
Thank you so much for the criticism, if it sounds like I'm just talking out of my nether regions, please let me know! I want this all to make sense!

I dislike the flying rules as well. But if you want to change flying, you'd need to do it as a game wide rule, not a fix on a single homebrew model.
As for it's durability, it's got 10 wounds. You're looking at ~3 wounding hits. With 1/3rd of the shots misfiring, and 1 in 6 not wounding, you're looking at 5+ shots to down it, and that's only as long as those shots don't scatter off target. Factor in the 8" and 10" scatters, and you're looking at ~8 shots on average to down it.

For the slayer idea, I was thinking transporting them, not having them fight while on board.

-Matt

How will my Beastmen ever kill this?

My unit of 6 harpies?

My...18-ish Ungor Raiders with Shortbows?

Magic Missiles from Lore of Beasts that won't do gak?

Terribly overpowered against certain armies. Decent, maybe a little bit underpowered against other armies.

Well, I don't know if being overpowered against one of the more underpowered armies currently in WHFB is that huge a knock against something. But I do see what you mean. It's really quite difficult to make something that is the near same effectiveness against every army. Most stuff works more on essentially a paper/rock/scissors system, where it may be great against some armies, but also likely weak against others, essentially evening it out in overall power level. By the same token, he will likely feel like a moron for bringing two runesmiths with spellbreakers, while your Doombull is ripping its way through a pack of warriors, so its not all awesome sauce for the dwarfs here...

Anyway, I can see the point about flying as well, but I think one of the cardinal differences is that while a flying creature would HAVE to come down to attack units near the ground, whether by tactics or instinct, an airship with engines and warmachines would not really need to come anywhere close to the ground which is something I think his rules represent well. I don't think normal flying rules would make sense AT ALL for this, which necessitates a unique rule.

RE: vulnerabilities. I really don't see a way to make it more vulnerable to some effects without making it ridiculously easy to take down, which sucks pretty harshly for a 500 point model. There are three things which might weaken it slightly, but not create a horribly overpriced unit.
A) Give it some sort of special rule that makes it easier to hit with ranged/warmachines. Perhaps let them re-roll the artillery or to hit rolls. This will make it easier to kill (Beastmen will still have issues...), but still leave it tough.
B) Make misfires more of an issue, making it easier to kill if it gets to fire more. My suggestion would be that if any of the war machines suffers a destroyed result, you also reduce toughness and reduce the armour save by 1. So essentially -1 W, -1T and -1 to Armour save (one weapon destroyed, 7T 2+ armour save, second destroyed 6T 3+ armour save, etc.)
C) Reduce wounds to 9. When it is reduced to 6 wounds, one of the war machines is considered "Destroyed", at 3 another is "Destroyed". This means you can cripple it without killing it.

Anyway, those are my ideas for addressing some of the concerns. It's late, they are probably awful, but oh well.

@HawaiiMatt: I can't really just decide to change the rules because I don't like them However, on a unit that I'm creating...
I also think you're underestimating the size of this thing! At least the one I'm currently building is almost 14 inches long and like...6 inches wide? Scattering off of that's going to take some doing
Finally, as to the slayers, since I think I will be keeping the fly rule, it doesn't make sense to transport a ground unit if it never lands...

@Karon: Over powered against some, underpowered against others, isn't that the rule maker's dream? It cant be equally good against everyone...

@Magister187: Thanks again for your input! (and for the compliments )
When it comes to weakening it, i think that all three, the last two especially are excellent. However, i think that, for now, I'm going to leave it as is... If, over the course of play-testing it is ridiculously over powered, I'll probably use one of those Ideas to tone it down some...




And finally, I had a chat with a fellow dwarf playing friend of mine, and the resident rulesmith for our (now defunct) club and he had this to say:

... There are a few concerns/questions though:

-points cost. I'm not sure how to work it out, though in friendly games, I think this is a non-issue.

-close-combat. Unlikely to happen, granted, because of its fly rules, but it can still take place. As of now, it would fight like a typical unit.
I might suggest making it more like a Steam-tank. E.g. inflicting a random number of impact hits (if it charges) and a random number of hits for attacks. This would represent the machine swinging around to buffet its foes, or just them smashing into the hull!
Also, you don't need Stubborn if it is Unbreakable. I think what your looking for is Immune to Psychology.

-customization.
As a Lord/warmachine, I feel that giving it a points allotment for runes would be characterful, and open up for some nasty combination's. Let it choose maybe 75 or so points from the Talismans and War Machine runes list, this would really trick it out!
I must say, I really like the quareller option. Maybe, in the name of customization, give it other options as well.
*said ranged unit
*additional organ guns/cannons
*another warmachine. Stone thrower, bolt throwers, flame cannons!
*Gyrocopter docking bay? Let it launch (or even heal?) a gyrocopter?

Food for thought. But over all, I really, really like it, especially in light of the 8th ed. rules shift, with its focus on making everything bigger, badder, bloodier and more far-fetched and fantastical than ever! I wish I were home to help test it out.
-Austin

What do you guys think? Two things that really jump out at me, other than the rule error ( ) are the bits about Customizing with runes, and docking a Gyrocopter... hehe although, I can see potential for almost everything!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
ONe thing I am going to change right now though is the attacks, to D6+2 (or +1? I haven't decided...)

I feel like this will weaken it some and, Karon, if you attack it from the front arc with your harpies, it's going to be in combat for a couple turns at least! it's only WS4, S3...

Maybe you should create a basic version first? So you could playtest the basics of giant flying cannon fortress, and then add rules for runes, engineers etc.

I would suggest you put the cost of the basic version to 500pts, so it can only be used in a 2000pts game and will then be all your rare choices.

Suggested armament: 2xsmall cannon (Str 8 D3) and a smaller organ gun (maybe Str 4?)

Its strengths would basically be that its artillery you cannot ever charge (if your not flying)

Rules for close combat, maybe it being auto hit by flyers?

@Banesword- I think you need to read the first post more carefully friend!

It's a Lord, not a rare Also are you suggesting those guns instead of what it has now? Same with the auto-hit, in addition to the current rules?
I do agree that I should play test what I have now before I add/subtract anything else

joshoftheforest wrote:@HawaiiMatt: I can't really just decide to change the rules because I don't like them However, on a unit that I'm creating...
I also think you're underestimating the size of this thing! At least the one I'm currently building is almost 14 inches long and like...6 inches wide? Scattering off of that's going to take some doing
Finally, as to the slayers, since I think I will be keeping the fly rule, it doesn't make sense to transport a ground unit if it never lands...

@Karon: Over powered against some, underpowered against others, isn't that the rule maker's dream? It cant be equally good against everyone...

14" long and 6" wide. How big is the base? You don't hit a model by ending over the model, you hit a model by ending over the base.
With the whole, can't be charged thing, how do ground units interact with it's base? Do you have 128 square inches of space that blocks enemy movement but cannot be charged?


I think this thing is really undercosted as is.
You have a better leadership bubble than a 145 point lord choice (18" instead of 12)
You have a better BSB bubble than a 90 point hero (18" instead of 12)
You have a pair of warmachines that go for 120 points each as rares, but don't take up your rare slots.
Just taking a naked general, naked BSB and 2 organ guns is 475 points.
That values T8 W10, 1+ save, can't be charged*, and flying at 25 points.

Outside of cannons (empire & dwarves) and stone throwers (Dwaves, Orcs and Tomb Kings), what is this things weakness?
You can still take plenty of cannons and grudge throwers to take out enemy warmachines, dwarves are really good at that.
Enemy fliers are going to be bouncing off this; dragons wound it on 6's, blood thristers wound in on 6's
Flying units don't stand much of a chance, as they tend to be perfect targets for organ guns, and their wounding it is a long shot.

From a design stand point, I don't see why it is the general and BSB. Fluff for dwarves say they typically reject newer better technology for more tried and true things.
I would rethink that part, and maybe make it a flying warmachine, rare choice, that can move and fire.
On armor, this thing is a zepplin correct? How is that 1+ armor? I think a 4+ ward might make more sense.


I love the airship idea, I just really want it to be playable.
-Matt

At this point, I'm really not sure what else I can say, until I play test it a bit. I have people on one side saying that they think it looks fair, and people on the other saying that it's ridiculously OP...
As to you points breakdown though Matt, I see what you're saying, I will be removing the BSB rule, but I do want to keep it as a lord choice. What you said about it not taking up any rare slots is true, but it also takes up a lord slot, and most of your room for Characters in smaller (~2k) point games.
To make it more vulnerable to the smaller fliers I'll change the toughness to match that of the other war machines, and give it a 2+ Armor save... I don't want to make it too easy to kill though because it IS a centerpiece model and a fairly substantial point sink.
As for it's weaknesses, I can fairly safely say, Magic, especially the Lore of Fire. Also, buy sucking up points that might otherwise be used for Rune-based characters, you're reducing the armies anti-magic abilities as a whole, sucking away one of the Dwarfs' primary battlefield advantages.
I just think it shouldn't be underestimated how much this thing Does Not allow you to take, in the form of other characters...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, small fliers can tar pit it for at least a turn, if not more, during which it's essentially out of commission, unless the rules for firing long range weapons while in close combat have changed since I've been gone?
The small fliers (like the harpies mentioned earlier) or multi would models (eagles, etc.) might not be able to kill it (realistically), but it only has between 3 and 8 (average ~5) WS4, S3 attacks a turn... they could hold it up and make it unable to fire.

Yes, yes dwarfs should definately have a zeppelin!! I really admire your courage, for takeing on the task, of making something on this scale.

I really think you should make a special misfire chart for it, perhaps one would be loss of altitude and would ground it for one turn. But I think you have enough ideas to considder for its potential adjustment.

I'm really a fan of the Gyrocopter docking bay, I was thinking the exsact same, it would be so Indiana Jones.

Also, when this thing finaly does die, I suggest rolling a scatter and atillery dice. Place the large template and everything underneath makes a I-test or dies horrorbly.

Please post the final result.

@HawiiMatt: And one more little thing, all that this gives you that the Lord or the BSB provides is their respective bubbles of influence, none of the combat or magic war gear that they could provide, so I don't feel like it's fair to compare the two points wise.
Also, it doesn't have flying.

@snapsepaven: Thanks! I really like that last suggestion especially Would it be an I test or a T test do you think? Would even being aware of this thing crashing down on their heads be enough to save them from its massive bulk?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And one more because I keep finding things... Matt, the Steam tank has a save of 1+, considering that this is kinda the picture I've been using for inspiration:

I feel like that's appropriate, changed to a 2+ to represent everything that isn't metal.

Lore of fire isn't going to do much, it's lore of metal you'll have to watch out for.

Fire magic is all S4, and you get saves. That's 6's to wound and 3's to save; 1 in 18 gets by.
Metal wounds on 2's with no save (ouch).

I think the real problem will be how it's base interacts with normal ground units. That is a big problem because it can end up between advancing infantry and a dwarf gunline.

Here's another mess for you:
Dragon charge Zepplin.
Zeplin holds.
Dwarves charge dragon, dragon holds.
Spearmen charge dwarves....
And so on, you've got a high flying zepplin that is locked in melee with a dragon, yet somehow foot troops can engage the dragon. It doesn't make sense.

What if charging it worked just like assaulting a building? If you don't kill all the crew, your pushed 1" back? That would solve the ongoing combat issue. I'd have fliers attack the crew stats, and non-fliers attacks the zepplin stats(as if assaulting into a building).

That might clean up all the problems, while leaving it durable enough to be useful.

Also, I'd make it faster than 6", that's just way too slow.

-Matt

Back again, thinking about the Bestmen specifically, I decided it would make sense if the Airship could be attacked by Giants. Seeing as I don't know all of the special rules for all of the giants, does anyone foresee any major problems?

[EDIT- 100th post!!]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt: What if units could move through the base, but couldn't end inside of it, just like Ethereal units and impassible terrain?

Also, I'm fairly unfamiliar with how assaulting a building works, could you give me a quick run down?

And I really really really would like to do everything in our power to keep the flight rules. I really feel as though they are what make the unit unique and interesting.
I see what you mean about the problem with the combats, but from a design standpoint, it just doesn't make sense for something like a zeppelin to be continually landing and taking off! I agree that multiple combats would get quite awkward though... hmmm...

Part of it's slowness was in an effort to weaken it... how would you write that it wheels like a regular unit? I was thinking that units could get out of a particular arc to avoid being shot by a particular gun...