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You definately need to play around them.

I would definitely try to practice playing around the house korvax strategem that allows them to move through any terrain or models along as they have enough movemet. Because they can surprise you with that strat.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
You definately need to play around them.

I would definitely try to practice playing around the house korvax strategem that allows them to move through any terrain or models along as they have enough movemet. Because they can surprise you with that strat.

Oups, that could be a surprise!

Ilgoth wrote:Why you people insist on highlighting our faction negatives, when clearly there are some positives too? You always just stampede anything positive here.

I've definitely been one of the doomsayers over the last few months, but I've come full circle again. I'd say we're almost settled back in our little anti-meta niche. Another codex release or two of a sensible power level and I think we'll bounce back.


In terms of Knights, they're the gatekeepers like they've always been. They make you play smart, focussing on scoring points and clever movement rather than trying to hurr-durr moar dakka your way through the immovable object.

There's absolutely no reason why we aren't killing at least one War Dog a turn, if not crippling a second. After that we dance around the big ones and try not to offer them too many opportunities to bring all that damage potential to bear.

Realistically lists are looking to be running two big ones and about seven smaller ones. No one has the damage potential for trying to kill that without tailoring to some degree, so there's no reason we should be trying to do it.

Just lean into our heavy hitters, keep moving, and stay kunnin'

I made some statistics and 5 Boomboyz Koptas and every single wazboom can kill exactly little bit less than a single wardog in the shooting. Dices makes some swing in it and makes you be less effective.

So my list with 2x wazboom + 2x5 koptas + 3 MSJ + 1 SJD can potentialy kill about 4 in shooting + 1 in kopta mortal wound charge.
And that is max I guess ork army can put on the table. In any case, there will be an issue to get all in range in a single turn.

Because after you kill 5 wardogs and get the koptas off the table, the rest of the knights kill both wazbooms and another 1-2 buggies at least if not positioned right.

So in next turn you need to kill another 2 wardogs with 2 kopta squads and the rest of the buggies. Than you are in in the sweet spot you want to be - just 2 huge knights on the table and you score around.

 Tomsug wrote:
I made some statistics and 5 Boomboyz Koptas and every single wazboom can kill exactly little bit less than a single wardog in the shooting. Dices makes some swing in it and makes you be less effective.

So my list with 2x wazboom + 2x5 koptas + 3 MSJ + 1 SJD can potentialy kill about 4 in shooting + 1 in kopta mortal wound charge.
And that is max I guess ork army can put on the table. In any case, there will be an issue to get all in range in a single turn.

Because after you kill 5 wardogs and get the koptas off the table, the rest of the knights kill both wazbooms and another 1-2 buggies at least if not positioned right.

So in next turn you need to kill another 2 wardogs with 2 kopta squads and the rest of the buggies. Than you are in in the sweet spot you want to be - just 2 huge knights on the table and you score around.

This is without the eventual +1 to hit granted by Freebooterz trait, right?

Yeah, between low model count and Boomboyz koptas there is a low chance to trigger it.

Honestly the count do not change after FB + 1 to hit. You declare all shooting from wazbooms to one target anyway. Just a better chance to finish him for sure

Ilgoth wrote:
Why you people insist on highlighting our faction negatives, when clearly there are some positives too? You always just stampede anything positive here.

On the good news I think orks should be getting a small boost with the faction specific secondary revamp coming soon… while our secondary isn’t horrible… it isn’t taken too often and I think it’s in line with a small bump… (but I contend it may also not be touched as it’s not the worst w
Either). I think certain factions such as grey knights and drukari might be getting hit hard though as thier faction secondaries are very strong.

gungo wrote:
On the good news I think orks should be getting a small boost with the faction specific secondary revamp coming soon… while our secondary isn’t horrible… it isn’t taken too often and I think it’s in line with a small bump… (but I contend it may also not be touched as it’s not the worst w
Either). I think certain factions such as grey knights and drukari might be getting hit hard though as thier faction secondaries are very strong.

I´ve totally missed this. Where was that announced?

On secondaries and Orks I find 'Grind them Down' to be an issue. Any faction with than can pick fewer tougher units will always have advantage over the swarmier one due to Grind being 3VP whereas the Swarmys options are fewer. E.g. Engage is 2vp and also sacrifices a unit per tick. The balance is off there imo.

Well.

I for one hope they give Hunta/Kill rigs Squig keyword and start updating some of the things in our klan kultures that makes no sense. It was brought up to make beastsnagga models good in snakebites yet their transports, the rigs, dont get any damn bonuses lol. Also squiggoths, normal and gargantuan ones. As well as giving the Kannon wagon, wagon keyword. Simply to clean up some of those things that makes no sense in our faction.

Like being able to advance and not get -1 to hit for evil sunz despite most our weapons that were assault are now dakka weapons...

Beardedragon wrote:
Well.

I for one hope they give Hunta/Kill rigs Squig keyword and start updating some of the things in our klan kultures that makes no sense. It was brought up to make beastsnagga models good in snakebites yet their transports, the rigs, dont get any damn bonuses lol. Also squiggoths, normal and gargantuan ones. As well as giving the Kannon wagon, wagon keyword. Simply to clean up some of those things that makes no sense in our faction.

Like being able to advance and not get -1 to hit for evil sunz despite most our weapons that were assault are now dakka weapons...

It's definitely not a good sign when it feels like we need a codex rewrite/update when its been less than a year since our codex has been out.

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Well.

I for one hope they give Hunta/Kill rigs Squig keyword and start updating some of the things in our klan kultures that makes no sense. It was brought up to make beastsnagga models good in snakebites yet their transports, the rigs, dont get any damn bonuses lol. Also squiggoths, normal and gargantuan ones. As well as giving the Kannon wagon, wagon keyword. Simply to clean up some of those things that makes no sense in our faction.

Like being able to advance and not get -1 to hit for evil sunz despite most our weapons that were assault are now dakka weapons...

It's definitely not a good sign when it feels like we need a codex rewrite/update when its been less than a year since our codex has been out.

yes.

And i just used an experimental list versus thousand sons and death guard. And while i lost both fights (used snakebites in one and deathksulls in another) it just pains me how insanely efficient rubric marines and plague marines are compared to our troop choices despite we paying almost the same amount.

My dedicated close combat boyz, 90 points, couldnt even dent those rubric marines at 105 points. And while they have terrible melee stats, we have terrible defence stats, so any wound is a dead boy.

How can i pay 9 points for a model that can only do melee, yet cant even win in melee? It seems like orks have to play flawless battles to win these days against armor of contempt, at least versus thousand sons and maybe death guard.

The thing thats stupid about the Snakebites making Beastsnaggas better is twofold

1) For whatever reason, its not treated as a bonus for Squig models, its half of the reason to be Snakebite so if you arent on a squig you have half a kulture. Every other kulture has 2 parts to it or benefit both shooting/melee Had it been a third bullet point under their Kulture rules it'd be perfectly fine (perhaps keep the 6+++ on top of the 2 new perks) because when only 3 models in the entire codex actually benefit from a kulture theres kinda no reason to use that kulture.

2) Goff benefits the Squig units just as much if not more than Snakebites, Yeah they lose the Transork rule but being T6 already its largely not that great anyway, considering the entire army gets Goff while only they get the Squig offensive boost.

I dont understand why Squiggoths and Rigs dont have the Squig word.

 Scactha wrote:

gungo wrote:
On the good news I think orks should be getting a small boost with the faction specific secondary revamp coming soon… while our secondary isn’t horrible… it isn’t taken too often and I think it’s in line with a small bump… (but I contend it may also not be touched as it’s not the worst w
Either). I think certain factions such as grey knights and drukari might be getting hit hard though as thier faction secondaries are very strong.

I´ve totally missed this. Where was that announced?

On secondaries and Orks I find 'Grind them Down' to be an issue. Any faction with than can pick fewer tougher units will always have advantage over the swarmier one due to Grind being 3VP whereas the Swarmys options are fewer. E.g. Engage is 2vp and also sacrifices a unit per tick. The balance is off there imo.

The new chapter approved warzone nephilm in June… will have point changes, reduced starting command points but the biggest change imho will be the changes to faction specific secondaries. Armies like grey knights and drukari show how easy to score faction specific objectives makes those armies have a much better win % then they really should.
“ The book includes secondary objectives for each army in the game, which have been rewritten and balanced against each other. Some are now harder to score, some are easier – and some are completely new. There are even bespoke secondary objectives for armies whose new codexes aren’t out yet, such as Chaos Daemons and Astra Militarum.”
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/04/revealed-chapter-approved-kicks-off-a-new-season-of-warhammer-40000/

Ilgoth wrote:
Why you people insist on highlighting our faction negatives, when clearly there are some positives too? You always just stampede anything positive here.

Its not highlighting negatives its pointing out reality. I think the Seattle Open Ork player played spectacularly and it shows. But I think his success shows that one of the best players in the game who plays orkz was still unable to place in an event with the current rules.

The Goff Pressure list is a gate keeper army at best right now, the Speed Freak AoR is good but again, gate keeper more than anything else, I think the play to objectives/mortal wound spam list is going to be our top build, and against the top lists its just not enough.

SemperMortis wrote:

Ilgoth wrote:
Why you people insist on highlighting our faction negatives, when clearly there are some positives too? You always just stampede anything positive here.

Its not highlighting negatives its pointing out reality. I think the Seattle Open Ork player played spectacularly and it shows. But I think his success shows that one of the best players in the game who plays orkz was still unable to place in an event with the current rules.

The Goff Pressure list is a gate keeper army at best right now, the Speed Freak AoR is good but again, gate keeper more than anything else, I think the play to objectives/mortal wound spam list is going to be our top build, and against the top lists its just not enough.

That might be true, but do remember that list's like the MW list will pop up. Sure at the moment we have a lot moving parts that do not work. But that does no mean there isn't exactly a way around it. Maybe there is a angle we just haven't taken into consideration.

I am already planning my list's around June changes to CP. I am still a long way, since i am painting and assembling my army. For me I am not concerned, we will come on top, that's the orky way ahaha. But in the mean time, might as well try wacky and different ways to play. You never know.

I think is time we do a bit of cleaning on the tier list, many things changed I think? Also June is probably gonna change a lot too, half cp means less pre game cp to spend and changes army building lists. Just my 2 cents if their worth anything.

I currently don't have the time to manage the first post due to job and family related issues. I also have zero motivation towards doing anything related to orks due to how GW keeps on treating them.

That said, grotrebel did propose an update for the first post, but got zero feedback from anyone, so there's that *shrug*

SemperMortis wrote:


Its not highlighting negatives its pointing out reality

Your reality. And you are more than welcome to stay in it, but wonder why you try to pull the rest of us in. Asking again - why the need to point it out constantly? Your posts are 60% whine.

---------------------------------

Regarding the first post listings - okay in my opinion? There isnt that much that has changed in terms of unit qualities for example. Maybe Tánkbustas being marked in the yellow is bit harsh considering they do find their space in our common armylists? And Wazbom Blastajet being cyan (frankly feels like blue category to me).

Then Blood Axes kultur being red - I dont know. Someone who has played more blood axes than me can say their weight, but most discussions about it don't seem that negative?

Ilgoth wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


Its not highlighting negatives its pointing out reality

Your reality. And you are more than welcome to stay in it, but wonder why you try to pull the rest of us in. Asking again - why the need to point it out constantly? Your posts are 60% whine.

---------------------------------

Regarding the first post listings - okay in my opinion? There isnt that much that has changed in terms of unit qualities for example. Maybe Tánkbustas being marked in the yellow is bit harsh considering they do find their space in our common armylists? And Wazbom Blastajet being cyan (frankly feels like blue category to me).

Then Blood Axes kultur being red - I dont know. Someone who has played more blood axes than me can say their weight, but most discussions about it don't seem that negative?

Sorry you feel like reality is "whine" Relatively speaking, if Jidmah and I are in agreement on something, its likely the truth since we share very different view points in regards to the meta. Orkz are at the moment Middle Tier at best. Sorry for that dose of reality.

 Jidmah wrote:
I currently don't have the time to manage the first post due to job and family related issues. I also have zero motivation towards doing anything related to orks due to how GW keeps on treating them.

That said, grotrebel did propose an update for the first post, but got zero feedback from anyone, so there's that *shrug*

I got ya bud… unfortunately we haven’t had a lot of movement since the last chapter approved… so I wouldn’t update anything until the next chapter approved… after that orks will be mostly set for the next 6 months.

SemperMortis wrote:

Ilgoth wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


Its not highlighting negatives its pointing out reality

Your reality. And you are more than welcome to stay in it, but wonder why you try to pull the rest of us in. Asking again - why the need to point it out constantly? Your posts are 60% whine.

---------------------------------

Regarding the first post listings - okay in my opinion? There isnt that much that has changed in terms of unit qualities for example. Maybe Tánkbustas being marked in the yellow is bit harsh considering they do find their space in our common armylists? And Wazbom Blastajet being cyan (frankly feels like blue category to me).

Then Blood Axes kultur being red - I dont know. Someone who has played more blood axes than me can say their weight, but most discussions about it don't seem that negative?

Sorry you feel like reality is "whine" Relatively speaking, if Jidmah and I are in agreement on something, its likely the truth since we share very different view points in regards to the meta. Orkz are at the moment Middle Tier at best. Sorry for that dose of reality.

Your reality. Quit pulling them out of their's where Ork Boyz are 6ppm with 2 wounds and a +++4.

Nobody says orks are anything but the mid tier. Being a mid tier in W40k is great. Most of the armies (and orks specialy) are mid to gak tier most of the time. Look at any tournament results in last couple of years. 90% of the lists is from about 10 factions. And how many factions is in W40k? About 30-40? So whining about “we are not top tier any more” is a whining. Which is boring.

Nobody says GW created a perfect set of rules . Honestly, there is a general consensus that this edition of ork rules is pretty stupid. Last 8th ed codex was better honestly.

The point is, that there are the people that likes orks and want to play them as good as possible in the current constelation. This is the “Might is right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics” discussion. So let' s discuss how to do as much as we can do.

Moaning is boring.

If someone miss to be a top tier, go and play Harleyis or Imperial Guard or whatever.

Jidmahs attitude is right. This is a hobby. If you don' t like how does it currently working, simply skip it for some time and wait.

The point of this thread is "competitive" 40k for orkz. I thoroughly enjoy going to GT's and local events with my orkz, but I go in knowing full well I have little to no chance at the top tables (GTs that is, locals I can usually place in the top 3)

And pointing out that builds people are asking questions about aren't competitive and then giving detailed explanations for why they won't work isn't really "Whining" so much as again "reality".

Someone stated in a competitive mindset that lootas are now competitive thanks to their 2ppm price cut. I pointed out that wasn't the case and broke it down in detail by showing how they stacked up against other factions Auto-cannon equipped units. That isn't whining, its showing reality

gungo wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I currently don't have the time to manage the first post due to job and family related issues. I also have zero motivation towards doing anything related to orks due to how GW keeps on treating them.

That said, grotrebel did propose an update for the first post, but got zero feedback from anyone, so there's that *shrug*

I got ya bud… unfortunately we haven’t had a lot of movement since the last chapter approved… so I wouldn’t update anything until the next chapter approved… after that orks will be mostly set for the next 6 months.

Yeah I have the updated list for the first page on my laptop, honestly I forgot about it after I posted it a few weeks back but there was no real feedback.
Didn't want to slap it on the first page without proper discussion as it's of course how I see orks rn. (Allthough I tried to add as much of the consens in this thread to it as possible.)
Gonna post it again this week so if anyone wants to add to it feel free to do so.

SemperMortis wrote:
The point of this thread is "competitive" 40k for orkz. I thoroughly enjoy going to GT's and local events with my orkz, but I go in knowing full well I have little to no chance at the top tables (GTs that is, locals I can usually place in the top 3)

And pointing out that builds people are asking questions about aren't competitive and then giving detailed explanations for why they won't work isn't really "Whining" so much as again "reality".

Someone stated in a competitive mindset that lootas are now competitive thanks to their 2ppm price cut. I pointed out that wasn't the case and broke it down in detail by showing how they stacked up against other factions Auto-cannon equipped units. That isn't whining, its showing reality

Now you discuss the competitive tactics! No complaints on my side.

 Grotrebel wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I currently don't have the time to manage the first post due to job and family related issues. I also have zero motivation towards doing anything related to orks due to how GW keeps on treating them.

That said, grotrebel did propose an update for the first post, but got zero feedback from anyone, so there's that *shrug*

I got ya bud… unfortunately we haven’t had a lot of movement since the last chapter approved… so I wouldn’t update anything until the next chapter approved… after that orks will be mostly set for the next 6 months.

Yeah I have the updated list for the first page on my laptop, honestly I forgot about it after I posted it a few weeks back but there was no real feedback.
Didn't want to slap it on the first page without proper discussion as it's of course how I see orks rn. (Allthough I tried to add as much of the consens in this thread to it as possible.)
Gonna post it again this week so if anyone wants to add to it feel free to do so.

don’t update it until next month when the new campaign book drops.. w point updates, cp changes and secondary changes orks can get a slight relative boost. Goff rush and speed mob are only a few point adjustments and 1 strong secondary to being competitive again. Both of which I think are possible… I think the noise regarding the fact orks need help is getting loud enough we might see something next chapter approved… I mean if we get a similar boost to what necrons for last chapter approved with massive point reductions and core added to units we will be okay for the next few months.

However, do you think, the comparing of the units based on their stats is really the point?

The more I play 9th ed the more I do not judge the list without the secondaries. I think, in 9th ed the secondaries are the back and bones of any list. You can use honestly almost any units, if they support your plan to score.

Look at the Warboss on Warbike in speed mob. Honestly, i don' t use him to kill anything at all. One goes and troll the opponent with the anti-obsec banner. The second goes around and either score via Homers or Bombs or do a roadblock.

The youtube podcast on Art of War with Marshal Peterson was intersting. He pointed out one aspect on mortal wounds - he said “Bommer is great point per mortal wound unit. But I skipped him, because I cannot aim these wounds. They are spread around, 1-3MW to every unit around. But what does it change? Does it kill anything? No.

Same story like used to be with the eadbutting the Burna Bommer. You did like 15MW but killed nothing….


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
don’t update it until next month when the new campaign book drops.. w point updates, cp changes and secondary changes orks can get a slight relative boost. Goff rush and speed mob are only a few point adjustments and 1 strong secondary to being competitive again. Both of which I think are possible… I think the noise regarding the fact orks need help is getting loud enough we might see something next chapter approved… I mean if we get a similar boost to what necrons for last chapter approved with massive point reductions and core added to units we will be okay for the next few months.

Agree, don' t update.

But don' t expect anything logical. The update will change a lot but my best prediction is totally random impact on our army. Speed Mob could be killed and Snakebites could be the kings and the best list be the mix of Grot tanks, Garg Squig and Mekboy workshop or something….

Have you ladz seen this thing?

https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/cliff.thomas3637/viz/40kFightClubTheMetaDataDashboard/40kFightClub-MetaDashboard?publish=yes

Some pretty interesting things you can find out when diving down into the data - for example how decent builds are actually somewhat close to 50% winrate, but we suck hard at beating aeldari, nids, tau and... *drum roll* sisters.

 Tomsug wrote:
However, do you think, the comparing of the units based on their stats is really the point?

The more I play 9th ed the more I do not judge the list without the secondaries. I think, in 9th ed the secondaries are the back and bones of any list. You can use honestly almost any units, if they support your plan to score.

Look at the Warboss on Warbike in speed mob. Honestly, i don' t use him to kill anything at all. One goes and troll the opponent with the anti-obsec banner. The second goes around and either score via Homers or Bombs or do a roadblock.

I couldn´t agree more. Marshall Peterson shows up and says Tankbustas are good and does surprisingly well in a tournament. Then crucially explains tactically why they work for him instead of the irrelevant points comparisons.

His use of Tankbustas is clever and I have had success with them too once I grasped the tactic. The advantage of pin pointing units with mw in a game that often revolves around force multiplying by fairly low wound models is a good observation. Kudos to him.

As long as we treat the game as a series of trades like chess we´re going to get bogged down in the incessant and useless points comparisons. If my Tankbustas nukes that Hospitaller supporting the Sister advance which allows my Manz and Boyz to duke it out longer in the middle I´m fine. That allowed my Grotz behind them to tick Primaries/Green Tide/Bannerpoints in the meanwhile.

 Jidmah wrote:
Have you ladz seen this thing?

https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/cliff.thomas3637/viz/40kFightClubTheMetaDataDashboard/40kFightClub-MetaDashboard?publish=yes

Some pretty interesting things you can find out when diving down into the data - for example how decent builds are actually somewhat close to 50% winrate, but we suck hard at beating aeldari, nids, tau and... *drum roll* sisters.

WoW no i haven't, thx!

 Jidmah wrote:
Have you ladz seen this thing?

https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/cliff.thomas3637/viz/40kFightClubTheMetaDataDashboard/40kFightClub-MetaDashboard?publish=yes

Some pretty interesting things you can find out when diving down into the data - for example how decent builds are actually somewhat close to 50% winrate, but we suck hard at beating aeldari, nids, tau and... *drum roll* sisters.

That is very cool!