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I've been an avid tournament gamer for several years with Magic The Gathering, this has been my first year with 40k and here's what I noticed. Aside from the usual people you meet on the tournament scene there always seems to be that one guy, our group of guys, that is there to WAC. While on the MTG circuit I've recognized a familiar face here or there if I'm out of town visiting a new store; however, it seems that with 40k, and a much older player base, you can usually run into the same guys no matter what store you go too.

While this may seem like a good thing with people traveling to tournaments around the state.. there seems to be a certain trend in my area (Central Florida) of a group of WAC players "making the rounds" as it where, hitting small tourneys usually $5-$10 dollar entrance fees and sweeping the local guys with little tricks like "floating" the tape measure and moving the model to at the same time to gain some inches, DEPLOYING a unit 2 inches from an exploded vehicle as if it disembarked, ignoring the pinning test and the fact it should be in the center of where the wreckage is.

Sadly, when a newbie player faces against one of these guys its just a slaughter and really is a negative experience for them. I'm really hoping the scene will change and given enough time I'm sure it will as they say, "The grass is always greener on the other side."

What was a time you faced a Power Gamer at a tourney and what did they do to win at all costs?

-Pat

I has the pleasure of playing a fly whose magical landraiders wreckage became impassable terrain for my terminators so they couldnt get to his troops on the other side.

You should rename the thread, "Florida's Traveling Cheaters" or "The Traveling Cheater" or something. You're making a local complaint about some local folks, but your thread title is much more broad. I'm a traveling Tourney Power Gamer. But I'm not a cheater. I'm not going to say anything more right now, but it would be good if you changed the title; you're confusing stereotypes.

"Power Gamer" and "Traveling Power Gamer" and other variants are generally trollbait comments.

Jerks and douches are jerks and douches. Competitive gamers are competitive gamers. The one's got nothing to do with the other. If they intersect, it's b/c they do, not b/c they are the sam

(There are, for instance, a lot of jerks and douches who like to dedicate their every ounce of forum energy to claiming that competitive 40k players are inherently jerks and douches. This is called social bullying).

You shouldn't refer to cheating as power gaming 'tricks'. I've never come across a traveling tourney power gamer, but as long as they aren't a cheater, they are free to play however they want to approach the hobby.

I will say, however, that a new player will probably have a miserable game whether they lose to someone who cheats or someone who is simply merciless.

If you have good TO's they should recognize the trouble makers and keep an eye on them. A few stern warnings and a possible ban should be enough to get the rest in line fairly quickly.

Oaka wrote:You shouldn't refer to cheating as power gaming 'tricks'. I've never come across a traveling tourney power gamer, but as long as they aren't a cheater, they are free to play however they want to approach the hobby.

I will say, however, that a new player is still going to have a miserable game whether they lose to someone who cheats or someone who is simply merciless.

This is another reason for pure w/l or w/l/d tournaments over battle points. When you are rewarded for massacring people, and you can lose despite winning all your games if you don't, the rules of a tournament REQUIRE you to mercilessly massacre a new player if you draw one.

Don't hate the player, hate the game, in that case.

I can say, however, that your generalizations are inaccurate and unnecessary. Again, draw your Venn Diagrams.

I've provide one not to scale for your viewing pleasure:

I, for one, LOVE the traveling Power Gamers, but I hate cheaters of all kinds. I used to travel for tournaments all the time and I love it when skilled folks come in from out of town and raise the competition bar. Such is my local gaming environment that they generally leave empty handed (VERY tough local scene) but I love having excellent, hard fought games against new people.

I like having 'ard players come to tournaments as well.

Also, there isn't any real evidence to suggest that there is a high correlation between playing hard ("power gaming") and being a cheater/douche.

My best friend and I have been playing 40k since 2nd Ed and we're both very hard players and we're honest to a fault with the rules because we both have integrity. On top of that neither of us could stand knowing that we won because we intentionally cheated. That just cheapens a game.

The local tourney scene here also is very hard, but the majority of the players are extremely honest players.

I prefer the term "Gaming Nomad" as I primarily choose to travel than settle in one local FLGS... This is primarily my local gaming community went through a nasty 'store split' where basically half the players went to the new store, half stayed at the old store and often there was an 'us or them' attitude. I basically was forced to drive 45 minutes to Glen Burnie HQ for decent gaming after that.

Which is why I began becoming a 'nomadic gamer' and focusing on full days of tourneys.

I agree with Dash that the "Gaming Nomad" are not cheaters the way you described. Showing up with a meta list is waaaaaaaaaaay different than cheating and taking advantage of inexperienced gamers who don't know the rules in smaller RTTs.

I like the term "social bullies" as that is effectively what they are doing. And that happens both with homegrown TFG who bullies a store or people who travel.

Personally, I feel like more people should attempt to be a "Gaming Nomad" as I think it grows you as a gamer and gives you experience you don't always get from your home club.

Dashofpepper wrote:You should rename the thread, "Florida's Traveling Cheaters" or "The Traveling Cheater" or something. You're making a local complaint about some local folks, but your thread title is much more broad. I'm a traveling Tourney Power Gamer. But I'm not a cheater. I'm not going to say anything more right now, but it would be good if you changed the title; you're confusing stereotypes.

My mistake, haha I would like to play you because your experienced, IE, a power gamer, I would not however want to play someone who travels around bending the rules to their own benefit ;-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MVBrandt wrote:

Oaka wrote:You shouldn't refer to cheating as power gaming 'tricks'. I've never come across a traveling tourney power gamer, but as long as they aren't a cheater, they are free to play however they want to approach the hobby.

I will say, however, that a new player is still going to have a miserable game whether they lose to someone who cheats or someone who is simply merciless.

This is another reason for pure w/l or w/l/d tournaments over battle points. When you are rewarded for massacring people, and you can lose despite winning all your games if you don't, the rules of a tournament REQUIRE you to mercilessly massacre a new player if you draw one.

Don't hate the player, hate the game, in that case.

I can say, however, that your generalizations are inaccurate and unnecessary. Again, draw your Venn Diagrams.

I've provide one not to scale for your viewing pleasure:

I like that diagram... very accurate haha

Your bubble of Traveling tourney power gamer doesnt take enough of the jerks and douches bubble in it j/k



You did forget Local tourney power games that are jerks and douches.

MvBrandt wins the thread.

You sir, are my kind of nerd.

Apostle Pat wrote:...What was a time you faced a Power Gamer at a tourney and what did they do to win at all costs?

-Pat

OK traveling power gamer tricks, the names, dates and events have been intentionally left off:

(1) Used a gaunt unit for cover for genestealers, didn't put them a base width apart, gaunts got pinned, "jumped" the genestealers over them in next move despite the insufficient space. Best part: When challenged on this cheat said: "You know that sportsmanship scores are at stake here?" as an open threat.

(2) Moved a Blood Angels assault squad 12 inches, in fire phase realized plasma pistol models were in back, and out of range after checking, then simply substituted models with those in front in the fire phase. When challenged said: "show me in the rulebook where I cant do this"

(3) Claimed that hades breaching drill ignored cover saves, and destroyed a terrain piece when it surfaced. When challenged, said, took this because we got it played that way last year. Offered rule book, when evaluated, rules actually said ignores terrain when surfacing for movement purposes of the drill.

(4) Built converted blood crushers on 30mm bases to reduce the footprint for deepstrike purposes. Built entire army around this concept.

(5) Deployed demon army units in a dawn of war mission, AND used demonic assault with the remaining pieces.

(6) Declared buildings as generic area terrain ruins at game start, then claimed mid game it would take an extra 3 inches to go "up" to the nearest model in an assault and therefore assault was out of range. When challenged, offered judge, while away getting judge, player in question moved figs further apart out of charge range.

nkelsch wrote:I prefer the term "Gaming Nomad" as I primarily choose to travel than settle in one local FLGS... This is primarily my local gaming community went through a nasty 'store split' where basically half the players went to the new store, half stayed at the old store and often there was an 'us or them' attitude. I basically was forced to drive 45 minutes to Glen Burnie HQ for decent gaming after that.

Which is why I began becoming a 'nomadic gamer' and focusing on full days of tourneys.

I agree with Dash that the "Gaming Nomad" are not cheaters the way you described. Showing up with a meta list is waaaaaaaaaaay different than cheating and taking advantage of inexperienced gamers who don't know the rules in smaller RTTs.

I like the term "social bullies" as that is effectively what they are doing. And that happens both with homegrown TFG who bullies a store or people who travel.

Personally, I feel like more people should attempt to be a "Gaming Nomad" as I think it grows you as a gamer and gives you experience you don't always get from your home club.

Social bullies in a tourny setting?

are there social bullies in poker tournaments?

I'll agree that in a casual setting, they could be termed social bullies... but in a tourny i think the people showing up with a list that has all the fat trimmed, and has played it so much they can use it in their sleep... are just better/more experienced players

Bloody hell! No wonder Augustus is so battle-scarred and world-weary.

I've only encountered shadiness pretty rarely. No one even tries really serious BS with me.

Stuff I can remember in the last year:

Player with four ICs and four squads in his list pretending to forget that he needed to declare which were attached to which when going in Reserve.

Same player, AFTER I caught that shenanigan, tried rolling for both of his Assault squads at the same time under the pretense that they were identical, when only one of them had a Sang Priest attached.

Same player also tried to claim that he could wait until after SCATTER rolls before deciding whether to re-roll Reserve rolls for Descent of Angels!

Fortunately, IME this crap is rare. This was all from a single game. I can't, off the top of my head, think of another opponent in the last year that was close to this bad.

WAAC Douchebags will always be a reality as long as there are prizes at stake. Whenever there is the prospect of winning something valuable, the dishonest people will do everything they can to win it. Not all tournament winners are dishonest douchebags, but the fact that there is a valuable prize for winning motivates the douchebags to cheat as much as possible. With a game as ambiguous in its rules as 40K, there are endless opportunities for someone to cheat so couple that with the prize for winning the whole thing and there is a lot of motivation for WAAC douchebags.

Augustus wrote:

Apostle Pat wrote:...What was a time you faced a Power Gamer at a tourney and what did they do to win at all costs?

-Pat

OK traveling power gamer tricks, the names, dates and events have been intentionally left off:

(1) Used a gaunt unit for cover for genestealers, didn't put them a base width apart, gaunts got pinned, "jumped" the genestealers over them in next move despite the insufficient space. Best part: When challenged on this cheat said: "You know that sportsmanship scores are at stake here?" as an open threat.

(2) Moved a Blood Angels assault squad 12 inches, in fire phase realized plasma pistol models were in back, and out of range after checking, then simply substituted models with those in front in the fire phase. When challenged said: "show me in the rulebook where I cant do this"

(3) Claimed that hades breaching drill ignored cover saves, and destroyed a terrain piece when it surfaced. When challenged, said, took this because we got it played that way last year. Offered rule book, when evaluated, rules actually said ignores terrain when surfacing for movement purposes of the drill.

(4) Built converted blood crushers on 30mm bases to reduce the footprint for deepstrike purposes. Built entire army around this concept.

(5) Deployed demon army units in a dawn of war mission, AND used demonic assault with the remaining pieces.

(6) Declared buildings as generic area terrain ruins at game start, then claimed mid game it would take an extra 3 inches to go "up" to the nearest model in an assault and therefore assault was out of range. When challenged, offered judge, while away getting judge, player in question moved figs further apart out of charge range.

all cheaty faces...

#6 tho... i think the only cheaty is the moving of models

frgsinwntr wrote:Social bullies in a tourny setting?

are there social bullies in poker tournaments?

Yup. Some people try mind games or other social power plays in any kind of social venue, but certainly in competitive ones. I remember seeing it in Magic: tG events back in the 90s. Weren't there a couple of big guys who tried physical intimidation, doing things like offering to arm wrestle for first turn, and the like?

frgsinwntr wrote:I'll agree that in a casual setting, they could be termed social bullies... but in a tourny i think the people showing up with a list that has all the fat trimmed, and has played it so much they can use it in their sleep... are just better/more experienced players

I think you misread the post. Social bully was brought up by MVBrandt in reference to people who are nasty to others who have a different play preference. Certainly WAAC-offs can sometimes bully people too.

SonicPara wrote:WAAC Douchebags will always be a reality as long as there are prizes at stake. Whenever there is the prospect of winning something valuable, the dishonest people will do everything they can to win it. Not all tournament winners are dishonest douchebags, but the fact that there is a valuable prize for winning motivates the douchebags to cheat as much as possible. With a game as ambiguous in its rules as 40K, there are endless opportunities for someone to cheat so couple that with the prize for winning the whole thing and there is a lot of motivation for WAAC douchebags.

Isn't this post a drop of sun shine.....

cheer up! its not that bad!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Social bullies in a tourny setting?

are there social bullies in poker tournaments?

Yup. Some people try mind games or other social power plays in any kind of social venue, but certainly in competitive ones. I remember seeing it in Magic: tG events back in the 90s. Weren't there a couple of big guys who tried physical intimidation, doing things like offering to arm wrestle for first turn, and the like?

frgsinwntr wrote:I'll agree that in a casual setting, they could be termed social bullies... but in a tourny i think the people showing up with a list that has all the fat trimmed, and has played it so much they can use it in their sleep... are just better/more experienced players

I think you misread the post. Social bully was brought up by MVBrandt in reference to people who are nasty to others who have a different play preference. Certainly WAAC-offs can sometimes bully people too.

I'll agree... i misread the post.... I think social bullies works well with the definition as you put it : )

Right!

I like the Ven Diagrams! Awesome!

frgsinwntr wrote:Isn't this post a drop of sun shine.....

cheer up! its not that bad!

I just wanted to point out that it is the prize support, the promise of something valuable, that brings in the "cheating douche" segment of 40K players. If a tourney was free to enter and the winner received nothing but bragging rights, you may be surprised by how few blatant cheaters show up if any. This also applies to nearly all other games/sports/hobbies that are at least partially honor-based. Look at something like Paintball where "wiping" paint has become an integral part of competitive play. Any time there is prize support for a honor-based game there will be cheaters, it isn't just with 40K.

<--- checks airfare to Portugal


Huh, I am usually pretty up on the rules and hold people accountable. As Gardeth has said, our local playerbase is pretty competitive so we usually catch out-of-towners off-guard.

I rarely have problems with people pulling crap.
Never underestimate the influence a 5 lb. sledgehammer on your display board can have.

Playing in a Kill Team tournament against a Fire Warrior/Kroot list, I had a player tell me that the Fire Warriors could draw line of sight to my models from around the corner of a building because the barrels of their guns stuck out from the side. When I tried to return fire, he claimed I couldn't draw LOS to his models because they were completely out of sight. I had to grab a judge at that point who ruled in my favor, but the TFG still dinged my sportsmanship scores over the issue.

Not a travelling player, but one of the "special" locals that I'm sure Dash had experiences with here in Jacksonville. Admittedly, there's a lot of competitive players here, a lot of trash that gets talked, and occassionally a little beardiness that can be halted in it's tracks for being called out for what it is, but it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch (especially for a new player) and there's more than a fair share here in Florida for some reason.

Augustus wrote:
(4) Built converted blood crushers on 30mm bases to reduce the footprint for deepstrike purposes. Built entire army around this concept.

(5) Deployed demon army units in a dawn of war mission, AND used demonic assault with the remaining pieces.

(6) Declared buildings as generic area terrain ruins at game start, then claimed mid game it would take an extra 3 inches to go "up" to the nearest model in an assault and therefore assault was out of range. When challenged, offered judge, while away getting judge, player in question moved figs further apart out of charge range.

Oh, I think I remember 4/5 being discussed on this very board....

So. Threads like this make me never want to get into the tourney scene. There is exactly one TFG in my FLGS. Luckilly, he's not very good. So when his stuff moves 2 or 3 extra" or his scatters are rolled across the board and very inaccurately transcribed to the template... or when his assault moves basically boil down to "whatever the heck I want" I just let it go, because at the end of the day, he's TFG.

Mannahnin wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Social bullies in a tourny setting?

are there social bullies in poker tournaments?

Yup. Some people try mind games or other social power plays in any kind of social venue, but certainly in competitive ones. I remember seeing it in Magic: tG events back in the 90s. Weren't there a couple of big guys who tried physical intimidation, doing things like offering to arm wrestle for first turn, and the like?

frgsinwntr wrote:I'll agree that in a casual setting, they could be termed social bullies... but in a tourney i think the people showing up with a list that has all the fat trimmed, and has played it so much they can use it in their sleep... are just better/more experienced players

I think you misread the post. Social bully was brought up by MVBrandt in reference to people who are nasty to others who have a different play preference. Certainly WAAC-offs can sometimes bully people too.

People try to use social status as a vet or supposed experience to force rule interpretations on people and bully people out of asking for proof or even discussing the rules. If you really know the rules in your sleep, then you are usually able to quote the rule, page number and related FAQ and know any opposing intepretations by heart. If you are right you want it to be clear and above board, not 'it is right because I clearly know more about the game than you do...'

If people are 'cheating' or pushing an advantagous intepretation they very much can be a social bully as a way to force people to submit to them especially in a tourney. Many times you will have people who go to a tourney in a group pile on someone and sometimes you have to remind them that a game is a 2 player situation and the only 3rd party involved in a dispute should be a FAQ or a TO.

Cottonjaw wrote:So. Threads like this make me never want to get into the tourney scene. There is exactly one TFG in my FLGS. Luckilly, he's not very good. So when his stuff moves 2 or 3 extra" or his scatters are rolled across the board and very inaccurately transcribed to the template... or when his assault moves basically boil down to "whatever the heck I want" I just let it go, because at the end of the day, he's TFG.

Ignore threads like this, unfortunately the internet is full of mislabeled/interpreted crap, and at time, it pertains to the tourney scene as well. There are no more dbags on the tourney scene then there are at the shop level. Actually, in my experience, there are less.

People may say that "prizes bring out the worst in people!" But when you're talking 50-60 dollars in models as reward for this rare, travelling douchebag who spent 100 dollars to go, it just doesn't mesh.

And at the GT level...yea...none of us have any illusions that we're "making money" or even breaking even. It's about the good times and comradery, the rest is just gravy. Any dbags you find, are, well, just dbags like anywhere else in life.

targetawg wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:So. Threads like this make me never want to get into the tourney scene. There is exactly one TFG in my FLGS. Luckilly, he's not very good. So when his stuff moves 2 or 3 extra" or his scatters are rolled across the board and very inaccurately transcribed to the template... or when his assault moves basically boil down to "whatever the heck I want" I just let it go, because at the end of the day, he's TFG.

Ignore threads like this, unfortunately the internet is full of mislabeled/interpreted crap, and at time, it pertains to the tourney scene as well. There are no more dbags on the tourney scene then there are at the shop level. Actually, in my experience, there are less.

People may say that "prizes bring out the worst in people!" But when you're talking 50-60 dollars in models as reward for this rare, travelling douchebag who spent 100 dollars to go, it just doesn't mesh.

And at the GT level...yea...none of us have any illusions that we're "making money" or even breaking even. It's about the good times and comradery, the rest is just gravy. Any dbags you find, are, well, just dbags like anywhere else in life.

Truth.

I find the people who are "I hate tourneys" are often TFG who can't get away with his shenanigans against experienced players who can't be intimidated.

Which is why I don't buy the traveling gamers are the source of cheating or jerks...

I have to agree with the OP of this posting. It is one of the reasons I got out of the GT tournaments. Seen enough Dbags through the years to choke a chicken for decades to come. I would rather lose to a power gamer who carries him/herself in a professional and/or friendly level than to "those" people".

The ones who come in as a so called group (I am not talking about team ups/partners they are generally decent people to begin with) that starts make comments about your playing style and/or loudly rooting for their partner in your game.

When I lose a game I generally ask the person across from me what I could improve on and what did wrong during the game and what would he/she do in my place. Those who are Hardcore and are personable are the ones you should learn from. Makes you a better player in the end.