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hey guys and gals, quick question.

Does mind worm affect BA Librarian dreads?

Now the rule states it affects anything with a LD value, no matter how unlikely it seems, but i thought id ask any way.

Thanks

well a BA dread doesn't have a LD value and "counts as" LD 10 for the purpose of psychic tests and nothing else so i would say no.

but if it "counts as" a ld value, it has a LD value, Yes?


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just got my mates BA codex, and i think it does affect it, here is why

"counts as ld 10 for all psychic purposes"
Mind worm is a psychic attack, so it would work as the BA codex says as above and the DA one says all i need is a ld value, even if it doesn't make sense

The BA FAQ attempts to clarify this.

Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for
all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620224a_Blood_Angels_Version_1_1.pdf

cheers guys that is exactly what i needed,thank you

so it does affect it

Actually for the BA librarian dreadnought Mind worm does not affect the dreadnought. The question why does it not count may come up, and the reason is that Mind worm does not target psykers. The only time a librarian dreadnought has a leadership is when he uses his psychic hood, uses a psychic power, rules or wargear that affect psykers AND require a LD value.

Mind worm must specifically target psykers only for the LD of the dread to be of consequence. It's like if you were to use mind war on a Librarian dread, the Libby can attempt to nullify, but as it is a vehicle it has no LD value, so is unable to test for mind war. Mind worm is the same, the librarian is a dread and has no leadership (Unless something specifically targets psykers) so it cannot take the leadership from the psychic power.

Mind War fails twice - vehicles have no wounds to lose anyway.

This is Mind Worm we're talking about, not Mind War. Mind war is an Eldar power, mind worm is a space marine (DA?) power

I realize it's mind womr we're talking about, I was using it as a fairly common occurence of a psychic power that can target any model with a leadership, hence mind war. Mind worm is the same, unless it specifically targets psykers (because the librarian dreadnought only has leadership for psychic purposes) the power isn't useable on the librarian dreadnought.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Mind worm is the same, unless it specifically targets psykers.

The only one I can come up with would be the WH psychic power "Hammer of the Witches" that forces enemy psykers to roll LD or take a Perils hit. Then there's some anti-psyker wargear in different books, some of which does go on Leadership.

huh?? it clearly says it will be affected by mind worm in that FAQ you put up?

Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for
all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10.

it says "for being affected by psychic powers (mind worm) special rules (mind worm again) or wargear that affect psykers AND (the important bit) require a LD value, mind worm requires a LD value this FAQ says that wargear powers and special rules that require a LD value work..

mind worm can attack a Dread, if it fails it dies

Spetulhu wrote:

The only one I can come up with would be the WH psychic power "Hammer of the Witches" that forces enemy psykers to roll LD or take a Perils hit. Then there's some anti-psyker wargear in different books, some of which does go on Leadership.

Also The Crucible of Malidection.

It does not affect the furioso, as it only counts as having ld 10 for the purposes of casting psychic powers. Spells, or wargear that cause enemy psykers to do things affect the furioso as he is a psyker but those that just target enemy units with a leadership value do not count.

Check The Rulebook it says that walkers do not have a ld value and count as fearless, fearless does not affect this, but THEY DO NOT HAVE A LD VALUE

this does affect fearless models, it affects ANYTHING with a ld value, the FAQ makes it cut and dry, it has a LD value for ANYTHING that requires a LD value its the "And" part that makes it so.

"Note that the attack can affect any creature with a LD value, No matter how unlikely it may seem that they can have feelings of guilt. by the same token, models without a LD value can not be affected, no matter how likely that they should be"
Page 39 DA codex

the FAQ states that
Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for
all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for BEING AFFECTED BY PSYCHIC POWERS, special rules or wargear that affect psykers AND require a Leadership value, they are counted as being Leadership 10.

emphasis mine.

so for the purposes of this psychic attack, it has a LD of 10

Does Mind Worm ONLY effect Psykers?

If it does then it effects the Liby Dread, if it does not then it does not work on the Dread.

does it affect psykers.. yes and it affects anything else with a ld value, the FAQ clearly says that if it is being "affected by psychic powers" which mind worm is, And requires a LD value, which mind worm does, then it had ld 10.

i wasn't sure before, but now i am, i cannot see what the issue here is? it ticks all the boxes that Mind worm And the FaQ require.

The key part of the FAQ ruling is;

special rules or wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership value

With the dread you have a leadership value for rules, psychic powers, etc that affect psykers. The crucible of malediction is one piece of wargear that goes after psykers, and specifically states it affects psykers. Can you target a psyker with mind worm? Yes you can target any model on the table with it, even a vehicle which has no leadership value. If I can target any model why can't I target the Librarian dreadnought with Mind Worm? The answer is, that the Dread is a special case where it is a vehicle that can cast psychic powers, nullify psychic powers, and be affect by rules and wargear that affect psykers. If you target the dreadnought with a psychic power that forces you to take a leadership test like every other model (And does not specify psykers), it is covered under models with no leadership because vehicles cannot take leadership tests. Unless something specificies it targets/affects psykers, such as the Crucible of Malediction (or the aforementioned Hammer of Witches), you do not take a leadership test with a vehicle because they have no leadership value.

"that affect pskers AND require a ld value"
"Note that the attack can affect any creature with a LDvalue, No matter how unlikely it may seem"

Mind worm affects EVERYTHING, with a LD value, this requires a LD value AND it affects psykers, because it affects EVERYTHING with a LD value, this vehicle HAS a LD value for attacks that require a LD value, therefore it takes the test.

things like mind war put wounds on anything with a LD value, vehicle's dont take wounds , so are immune, Mind worm removes from play, so it does affect vehicle's, but only if it has a LD value, which this "special" vehicle does.

all arguing aside.. what are the odds LD 10 would fail anyway? assuming psychic fails?


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"that affect pskers AND require a ld value"
"Note that the attack can affect any creature with a LDvalue, No matter how unlikely it may seem"

Mind worm affects EVERYTHING, with a LD value, this requires a LD value AND it affects psykers, because it affects EVERYTHING with a LD value, this vehicle HAS a LD value for attacks that require a LD value, therefore it takes the test.

things like mind war put wounds on anything with a LD value, vehicle's dont take wounds , so are immune, Mind worm removes from play, so it does affect vehicle's, but only if it has a LD value, which this "special" vehicle does.

all arguing aside.. what are the odds LD 10 would fail anyway? assuming psychic hood fails?

Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for
all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10.

Situations where a Lib dread has a LD value
When using a psychic power
When using psychic hood
Targeted by a psychic power that affects psykers and requires LD
Targeted by a special rule that affects psykers and requires LD
Targeted by wargear that affects psykers and requires LD

"Affect psykers and requiring LD" are both requirements for the conditions preceding it.
Mind worm does not specifically target Psykers, so for the case you are putting forth the dread would have no LD value and the power would have no effect.
"It affects everything" isn't a valid argument for this, because the dread itself has the conditions and not the psychic power.

Thank you Dok, you managed to get across the point I was trying to make.

The part that says "that affect psykers and require a leadership value" is not merely describing wargear. It is describing psychic powers that affect psykers, special rules that affect psykers, and wargear that affect psykers.

I'm sure Formosa will wonder how we came to that conclusion, I'll show you how I came to it at least


(It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood) and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership value, they are counted as being Leadership 10.

The first set of parentheses points out one part of a runon sentence. It can stand on it's own, though the grammar is a mess, it is a complete sentence. By putting the word and in there they are stating that the new list with powers, rules, and wargear is one item on the list. Then they are explaining that those three things must affect psykers for the leadership value to count.

I think Formosa is right here.

A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10.

"...that affect psykers and require a leadership value" does not say "that ONLY affect psykers". Psykers are among the models which can be affected by Mind Worm; you are reading the passage from the FAQ answer as if it is exclusive, but it doesn't appear to be.

Imagine I have a psychic power called "Ring Worm", which affects dogs, attacking them based on their LD value. You have a special Collie model which only counts as having a LD value for the purposes mentioned in the FAQ answer. Well, since Ringworm affects dogs, and a Collie is a kind of dog, then Ringworm would appear to affect your Collie just as it does other dogs.

Not that it matters all that much, as Mind Worm is an absolutely terrible power, and only one model in the game has it. If you're terrified of Ezekiel using this power, which has an 18" range and counts as firing a heavy weapon, to force your Dread to test on Ld10 or die, then I don't know what to tell you.

There's just a couple of hitches in the whole argument for it working. Here's a different example that fits too; All librarian dreadnoughts are dreadnoughts. All dreadnoughts are models. All dreadnoughts have no leadership value. Therefore all librarian dreadnoughts are models with no leadership value.

I'll admit, mind worm can target models with or without a leadership. If it is used on a model with no leadership it cannot affect models with no leadership. The Librarian dreadnought is laid out in the faq as having a leadership for the following purposes;
1. For Psychic tests
2. For using a psychic hood
3. For Psychic powers affecting psykers.
4. For Special rules affecting psykers.
5. For wargear affecting psykers.

Mind worm can target any model within 18" on the table. It is not something that specifically states it affects psykers, it affects models. Now you can make the argument that psykers are models, but psykers is not a type of model. Psykers have a special rule that makes them psykers, and it is the fact that they have the special rule 'Psykers" that makes it so that the librarian dreadnought can only be targetted by something that says psykers for leadership value. Otherwise it's model type is vehicle, and vehicles have no leadership value thus preventing it from being affected.

You are arguing as if the FAQ answer limited the uses of LD for a Furioso Librarian to psychic powers, special rules, and wargear which ONLY affect psykers. Which is not what it says.

3., above, is satisfied if the psychic power in question affects psykers. Not just if the psychic power ONLY affects psykers.

It says CREATURE not UNIT or VEHICLE, which RAI suggests that it doesn't affect it.

But RAW sure, it does, but RAW is BS

A model can have the special rule: Psyker, but mind worm affects models with a LD value and not models with the special rule: Psyker

Dreads do not have a LD value.

if something targets a model with the Special Rule: Psyker, then it can affect the dreadnought. (Because of the Psychic purposes clause)

Since mind worm affects models with a LD value and not models with the special rule: Psyker, I would be inclined to believe it has no affect on the Librarian dread.


"that affect psykers" is the telling part of the FaQ, the power has to say it affects psyckers for the dread to even consider using its LD value.

Deathreaper (as well as others earlier) is right here.

Mind Worm says"... models with no Leadership characteristic are immune to the attack".

Furiouso Librarians do not have a Leadership characteristic - "... counts as being Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes."

Also, Mind Worm is not a "psychic purpose" as defined by the FAQ. A "special rule or wargear that effect[s] psykers and require[s] a Leadership value" would have to be something which specifically mentions Psykers. Otherwise, it doesn't affect psykers, it affects all models with a Leadership. That is a completely different class of targets.

DR et al are not right.

You are reading the "effect psykers" clause as restrictive; you are reading "that ONLY effects psykers" which is not what the sentence states. Adding words to a rule to make it read something entirely separate is not kosher!

Mann has this exactly right.

"that affects psykers AND Requires a LD test"

Mind worm affects psykers, it effects anything with a LD value, PSYKERS HAVE A LD VALUE, AND IT REQUIRES A LD TEST.

this is pretty cut and dry, mind worm fills both criteria for affecting the Dread

Does power affect psykers: yes
does power require LD test: Yes

But that is where you are off formosa.

Does it say it affects Psykers: no

It affects models, and Models =/= Psyker

Mind worm does not specify that it has any affect on models with the special rule Psyker. So it can not affect them, unless they are models with a LD value. (which dreads are not).

A model can have the special rule psyker, but for something to affect psykers it has to say that it has an affect on psykers, not just models. (all models with the special rule psyker are models, but not all models have the special rule psyker)

It all boils down to the faq, and how it is interpretted I suppose. The faq has laid out what psychic purposes means. Since I've listed them already I won't do it again, but what we can take from it is psychic purposes essentially boils down to anything that interacts specifically with the Psyker special rule.

A couple of examples of rules and wargear that effect "enemies" and/or "models";

Asdrubael Vect's Obsidian orbs can target any model. Is the librarian dread susceptable to it since it has a leadership 10 and is being targetted by a piece of wargear that doesn't specifically state it affects psykers? By the interpretation of some people, it can. Therefore Vect can roll to wound against the leadership of the Libby dread each turn he's not in assault with it, and since it doesn't have wounds every time he rolls over a 4+ he gains a wound back because he caused a wound, even though the dread has no wounds and has no save against it.

A sanguinary guard's death mask for a target unit to take a leadership test. Again is it susceptable to it? The death mask says enemy assaulted by the death mask must make a leadership or fight at WS 1. Again it doesn't specify psykers, so it must be a piece of wargear that affects psykers.

Direswords (Granted wielded by DA and Asurman they cannot do damage to the dread, but the rules can still be pointed out) are another weapon. As we know glancing and penetrating hits count as unsaved wounds for combat resolution. So if we inflict glancing or penetrating hits against the dread, we count as having wounded it, and thus the Librarian dread would be forced to pass several leadership tests or be removed. Again it doesn't specify it affects psykers.

These are just a few examples I pulled at random from my head. The books are full of wargear, special rules, and psychic powers that affect all sorts of models with leadership. Since the librarian dread is also a vehicle we are forced to limit what affects models to something that specifically states it affects psykers, or we'll have some absolutely silly RAW and RAI arguments going on.

DR - are psykers models?

A: Yes

then they are affected by Mindworm.

Hideously simple.