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What does this mean? ex: 'Not another Deathstar list.'

Is it like saying glass cannon?

It basically a big near invincible and/or extremely deadly unit. As in they've thrown all their points into this one unit which is probably capable of destroying the enemy by itself.

djphranq wrote:Is it like saying glass cannon?

No, rather the opposite. A Deathstar (in WHFB) combines certain (maybe Special) characters, their abilities and certain magic items into a unit of troops that has certain qualities of its own (ubreakable for instance or having a Ward save etc. etc.) which results in a unit that is almost unkillable (and in the previous WHFB edition this meant it wasn't likely to go below half strength either) and who has a mix of characters that can either absorb huge amounts of damage (in Challenges for instance) or can dish out the damage destroying any enemy unit that gets in contact with it.

Clearly it's a enormous point sink so it's hard to get a big win vs such a list. And when it has above average movement it can be really hard to avoid it as well, while you try to kill the minimal support units. In the current WHFB edition the Deathstar isn't as prevalent anymore as it was in 7th Ed. because there is some downright unit-killing magic around atm.

I hope that clears things up, if there is a 40K equivalent Deathstar which means something else I'm sure somebody else will enlighten you.

It's basically the same for both I think.

Has the latest edition done anything to deal with deathstar lists? Reading forum banter they always seemed the least appealing aspect of WFB to me.

JOHIRA wrote:Has the latest edition done anything to deal with deathstar lists? Reading forum banter they always seemed the least appealing aspect of WFB to me.

There's quite a few different ways of using magic to weaken entire units, but generally what you'd do is throw cheap units at the deathstar to keep it out of your hair, if you can't avoid it altogether, and use the rest of your army to destroy the rest of theirs. Gunlines can do a lot of damage as well.

In 40K terms its talking about things like a SW army that has 4 wolf lords on TW mounts added to a unit of TWC between 3 or 5. Its a MASSIVE points sink, but on the otherhand since you can kit out almost every single one of them diffrently you can use wound allocation to spread all the firepower thats gona hit you around to keep the unit on the table as long as possible so it can get the charge and basicly wipe stuff off the table. Not always, but enough that its now though of as one of the spammy WAAC type lists. (weather thats true or not is up to the indavidual opponent of it).

40k deathstars are much the same as the fantasy ones. Difficult to kill, deals out massive damage, often faster than your average bear. Think of a unit as big and killy as the Death Star from Star Wars. Often deathstar units have few weaknesses too.


Here are some deathstars and why.

Abbadon and terminator bodyguard. Abbadon is dead tough, can't be insta-killed, t5 for saving wounds. 2+armor with 5(4?)+ invuln. He strikes before most leaders, can kill models outright with high str. and can get upwards of 11+ attacks. Put khorne terminators with lightning claws with him, each capable of putting out 5 attacks (rerolling wounds) on the charge. Nurgle terminators for high toughness and slaneesh to attack before just about any other army besides eldar. Mount them in a LR for speed and assault.

Ork Warbikers. Fast move 12, shoot 18 inches with 27 rerolling attacks. 3 power claws, 3 big choppas 3 regular attacks putting out 20+ attacks on charge half ignoring armor and insta killling. FNP with painboy often with 4+ sv in shooting and 5+ invuln. save. Wound allocation so you have to o 10 wounds before a model dies. Add a warboss on bike for more str. 10 power klaw attacks and wound allocation.

Both these are around 1000 pts to put on the table. There are many others but I am most familiar with these.

My unit which has become a deathstar in its own right.

Mad Doc Grotznick, 30 bionic boyz with cc weapons, nob. Runs about 500 points. FNP for the squad. 5+ invuln in cc and usually get a cover save in shooting. If all made it to combat they'd have near 200 attacks but usually end up around 70 with 7 power klaw attacks. It has weaknesses but they are hard to exploit. But on average attacks you'd need to wound around 120 wounds to kill off the unit with FNP and invuln save.

firmlog wrote:Ork Warbikers.

This one, I'm not so sure I agree with. Mostly because I don't know Orks that well. I don't get to fight them all that much. While you description sure reads as totally nasty, is it actually "Deathstar"?

firmlog wrote:Abbadon and terminator bodyguard.

This one I can flat out disagree with. I faced Abaddon and 5 Termies in a 1000pt. game (I know! Cheeeeese...). I had a WL, Farseer, Banshees(10), W. Serpent, 10 Guardians x2, 5 Rangers (recalling list from memory. Take it easy on me) and I lost the Farseer/Banshees due to a bad round of shooting that broke 'em beyond the point of return, but not before Mind War did it's damage. I ended up killing every single Termie, Abaddon included, and most of the rest of his army.

There is nothing anyone can say or do to convince me that Abaddon/Termies is a Deathstar unit.



King Ghidorah

Remember, little fighters, timing, and position actually killed the death star...

Just saying (it's kind of an ironic use of the term).

And a punk kid with the Force and script approval.

Ghidorah wrote:

firmlog wrote:Ork Warbikers.

This one, I'm not so sure I agree with. Mostly because I don't know Orks that well. I don't get to fight them all that much. While you description sure reads as totally nasty, is it actually "Deathstar"?

Ircc..... Ork bikes get a mobile cover save due to them generating tons of smoke and fumes.

12thRonin wrote:...script approval.

That's the only way that that hack salamander, Godzilla, and his buddies can beat me...



King Ghidorah

Those units are just examples, not hard set units and can often depend on the player using them. Abbadon and his termies has its weaknesses, and like I said all death stars do, they usually revolve around shooting/psykics. Now, if he teleported them in or walked them on the board, thats not a deathstar, its slow and not a problem.

Here's how I usually face it, I've killed it twice, so its not unkillable but it is pretty tough. Abbadon, 4 termies with lightning claws, slaneesh Icon (initiative 5 basically) so strikes before most units ties most eldar units. Icon provides scatter support for demon unit. Mount termies in a LR. It should be able to assault units and sustain no wounds before getting into assault. Nurlge icon is also good to get 5 toughness or FNP? I'm not sure what it gives. It's not the supreme deathstar, but it should be considered one. The demons who assault the turn they come in are also really helpfull.

Grey knights look like they have a nice deathstar unit as well as blood angels.

Ghidorah wrote:

firmlog wrote:Abbadon and terminator bodyguard.

This one I can flat out disagree with. I faced Abaddon and 5 Termies in a 1000pt. game (I know! Cheeeeese...). I had a WL, Farseer, Banshees(10), W. Serpent, 10 Guardians x2, 5 Rangers (recalling list from memory. Take it easy on me) and I lost the Farseer/Banshees due to a bad round of shooting that broke 'em beyond the point of return, but not before Mind War did it's damage. I ended up killing every single Termie, Abaddon included, and most of the rest of his army.

There is nothing anyone can say or do to convince me that Abaddon/Termies is a Deathstar unit.

Well if they were footslogging with a non-fearless unit then they aren't, They are good but there's worse things out there. But a 275 point HQ in a ~225 point transport with a ~200 point 'zerker squad is something to worry about.

Ok. Try swarmlord, 3 tyrant guard with tyranid prime attached.

Ghidorah wrote:

firmlog wrote:Ork Warbikers.

This one, I'm not so sure I agree with. Mostly because I don't know Orks that well. I don't get to fight them all that much. While you description sure reads as totally nasty, is it actually "Deathstar"?

He meant NOB bikers, not regular Warbikers. Yes, they're a deathstar.

Ghidorah wrote:

firmlog wrote:Abbadon and terminator bodyguard.

This one I can flat out disagree with. I faced Abaddon and 5 Termies in a 1000pt. game (I know! Cheeeeese...). I had a WL, Farseer, Banshees(10), W. Serpent, 10 Guardians x2, 5 Rangers (recalling list from memory. Take it easy on me) and I lost the Farseer/Banshees due to a bad round of shooting that broke 'em beyond the point of return, but not before Mind War did it's damage. I ended up killing every single Termie, Abaddon included, and most of the rest of his army.

There is nothing anyone can say or do to convince me that Abaddon/Termies is a Deathstar unit.

Then you've misunderstood the definition. A deathstar is not actually unkillable. They are USUALLY very durable, but can be countered (and sometimes even killed) with proper tactics. The main qualifying points are a) dead killy, and b) expensive, representing usually half or more of the points in the army. Remember, the thing they're named after was capable of killing planets, but was killed itself by smaller foes.

Nob Bikers were quite popular and won multiple GTs/GT-level events when they were new, though they largely dropped off the scene once SM armies started including TH/SS terminators as standard, since that unit can beat or at least cripple the Nobs, and costs less.

Eldar jetbike Seer Councils are another classic, which were all over the UKGT for years, but are now infrequently seen due to how common Librarians & Runepriests are in competitive armies; when your army's main strategy/strength requires casting a given psychic power, it's a big gamble when your opponent has ~40% chance of cancellling it. Also, with True LOS in 5th ed, there are far fewer places on most tables where you can actually hide the council if you're not going first. And you can't cast Fortune the turn you arrive from Reserve, so the Jetseer Council often suffers when going second.

Thunderwolf Cavalry, diversified with varying wargear and led by a (or multiple) Wolf Lord(s) is a presently-functional deathstar. It hits extremely hard, it has T5, 3+ armor, 2+ armor on the wolf lord to bounce ML or Battlecannon shots here and there, multiple wounds to abuse distribution and keep models alive until it hits, it moves fast, the characters can take anti-psyker wargear AND you can include a Runepriest in the army for more psychic defense, the WL gives it LD10 to resist being Tank-Shocked (which is a useful counter against regular TWC units, as they are only Ld8), it has big bases and long charge range to facilitate hitting multiple enemy units at once, and once you get close you have the option of splitting off the character(s) to charge different targets if necessary, mitigating the weakness of some deathstars of only being able to kill one unit/turn.

Deathstar units come in and out of fashion depending on the rules edition and the units commonly-seen. If a given deathstar starts to have easy counters show up, it falls out of fashion and you see it less.

Deathstars are also a bit less common in 5th ed in general, because only 1/3 missions are KP (which they have an advantage in), whereas in 3rd and 4th, games were most commonly based on VPs, in which they present a really nasty challenge to the enemy- he cannot get a big win against you unless he manages to kill or at least cripple the deathstar.

Ghidorah wrote:

12thRonin wrote:...script approval.

That's the only way that that hack salamander, Godzilla, and his buddies can beat me...



King Ghidorah

There was also that time that you walked into a gang war with just you, yourself and Poe.

Mannahnin wrote:

Ghidorah wrote:There is nothing anyone can say or do to convince me that Abaddon/Termies is a Deathstar unit.

Then you've misunderstood the definition. A deathstar is not actually unkillable.

Ok, so I'll amend my above quote to say, "There is one thing somebody can say or do to convince me that Abaddon/Termies is a Deathstar unit." ...and you just said it.

I get that they are not necessarily unkillable per se, but that single unit I faced, while scary at first, was decimated relatively easily. Due to them being shot to pieces (it took a few turns) by Shuri-Cats, Mind War and the occasional EML I figured that they were far less Death-Star-y than other units.

Your explanation makes complete sense though, so I retract my earlier statement.



King Ghidorah

I find it interesting that no one's gone over the definition of a glass cannon, which is a unit that dishes out wounds but suffers wounds/damage easily.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GlassCannon


Any examples?

Ghidorah wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

Ghidorah wrote:There is nothing anyone can say or do to convince me that Abaddon/Termies is a Deathstar unit.

Then you've misunderstood the definition. A deathstar is not actually unkillable.

Ok, so I'll amend my above quote to say, "There is one thing somebody can say or do to convince me that Abaddon/Termies is a Deathstar unit." ...and you just said it.

I get that they are not necessarily unkillable per se, but that single unit I faced, while scary at first, was decimated relatively easily. Due to them being shot to pieces (it took a few turns) by Shuri-Cats, Mind War and the occasional EML I figured that they were far less Death-Star-y than other units.

Your explanation makes complete sense though, so I retract my earlier statement.

Well, as I said, they're each killable with proper tactics. And you used the proper tactics to kill terminators. Delay, avoid, and pour firepower into them to make them take a jillion armor saves. If it had been an objective game and your avoiding the unit to shoot them had kept you from getting objectives, the deathstar would have been successfully used, even if it died.

There's counters to everything. Take today, I saw a GK army taken apart by 3 vindicators. Does that mean they aren't powerfull, or tough? Doesn't matter if the guy took paladins with different gear on each model for wound allocation, Vindi's kill all. t5 or less.

Gavin Thorne wrote:I find it interesting that no one's gone over the definition of a glass cannon, which is a unit that dishes out wounds but suffers wounds/damage easily.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GlassCannon


Any examples?

Dark Eldar.

Gavin Thorne wrote:I find it interesting that no one's gone over the definition of a glass cannon, which is a unit that dishes out wounds but suffers wounds/damage easily.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GlassCannon


Any examples?

Alot depend on use.... in the right situation..
Ork Coptas.
Vanguard Vet squads.
LS Squadrons.

Most of these can be Glass cannon units, though that would depend on use and opponant response.

Since everyone seems to be adding examples of a deathstar unit I shall as well.

A 6 man LC BT terminator squad with furious charge in a LRC. The force has accept any challange

I think a large portion of it is;

Almost all deathstars are close combat based.
Vehicles grant mobility to get away from death stars.
Vehicles can move 7+ inches and make the best death stars blocked---and needing 6's to move the obstacle.
Vehicles are as cheap and plentiful as they've ever been in 40k.

Deathstar units are simply expensive units that can do alot of damage and very quickly.
Usually involve a special character or a normal HQ or 2.

While not a normal one, it is something ive used for the fun of it:


Urien rakarth - 190
Haemonculus Ancient: agonizer, liquifire gun - 110
10 grotesques: extra strength, liquifier, aborration, flesh gauntlet - 440

740 points total.

Grotes get 42 S7 attacks on the charge, 5 with a flesh gauntlet.
Ancient gets 4 attac.ks that do enough to help out
Urien boosts thier strength and adds yet another token to the unit and is pretty decent in combat.

With the 3 pain tokens they get FNP, FC and fearless from the start.


All in all it can do alot of damage and take quite a bit in return, but nowhere near invincible.
Its slow as hell, but amusing to use.