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Does 2 castings of hammer hand on the same unit stack so you can have strength 6? Say you have a Grey Knight Strike Squad with attached Grandmaster. The Justicar casts hammer hand. The Grandmaster also casts Hammer hand. Is your unit Strength 6 because they stack or only Strength 5 because you can only get the benefit of a power once? This is potentially very nasty to multi wound units toughness 4 if you give the grandmaster rad grenades the enemy multi wound unit would be toughness 3 and subject to insta death by your strength 6 or does it not work that way?

They stack, as it is from two different sources and at two different stages.

If hammer hand does indeed stack to give you strength 6 do you insta kill nobs that are now toughness 3 from the grandmaster's rad grenades?

There's nothing stopping you using Hammerhand twice on a unit. Couple with Rad grenades, and indeed you can be S6 vs T3 on T4 enemies. There aren't many T4 enemies with 2 or more wounds though, Nobs are the only that spring to mind.

Rad grenades however, do not stack.

GCMandrake wrote:There's nothing stopping you using Hammerhand twice on a unit. Couple with Rad grenades, and indeed you can be S6 vs T3 on T4 enemies. There aren't many T4 enemies with 2 or more wounds though, Nobs are the only that spring to mind.

Tyranid warriors are probably the other prominent one. However, rad grenades specifically say they do not change the instant death threshold. So those nobs/warriors would be T3, but still only suffer instant death from things that are strength 8. You would ignore feel no pain with your non-power weapons though, so there's some benefit.

I thought Rad Grenades did change the ID threshold.

Valkyrie wrote:I thought Rad Grenades did change the ID threshold.

They do, it is super explicit on this in the codex. Reading is fundamental.

Culler wrote:

GCMandrake wrote:There's nothing stopping you using Hammerhand twice on a unit. Couple with Rad grenades, and indeed you can be S6 vs T3 on T4 enemies. There aren't many T4 enemies with 2 or more wounds though, Nobs are the only that spring to mind.

Tyranid warriors are probably the other prominent one. However, rad grenades specifically say they do not change the instant death threshold. So those nobs/warriors would be T3, but still only suffer instant death from things that are strength 8. You would ignore feel no pain with your non-power weapons though, so there's some benefit.

Please read the rule WAY more carefully next time. It explicitly states the exact opposite of what you just posted.

Wait, we are using it doesn't say it doesn't as logic now? Hammerhand nowhere says a unit can benefit from multiple sources of the same effect. It is binary- A unit affected by hammer hand has +1 str. Do it again? Still +1 str.

Rad grenades + HH should be enough with Force Weps most of the time anyway...

jmurph wrote:Wait, we are using it doesn't say it doesn't as logic now? Hammerhand nowhere says a unit can benefit from multiple sources of the same effect. It is binary- A unit affected by hammer hand has +1 str. Do it again? Still +1 str.

Rad grenades + HH should be enough with Force Weps most of the time anyway...

I approve of this message.

jmurph wrote:Hammerhand nowhere says a unit can benefit from multiple sources of the same effect. It is binary- A unit affected by hammer hand has +1 str. Do it again? Still +1 str.

I can't fathom how people make this assumption which isn't based on a rule at all.

jmurph wrote:Wait, we are using it doesn't say it doesn't as logic now? Hammerhand nowhere says a unit can benefit from multiple sources of the same effect. It is binary- A unit affected by hammer hand has +1 str. Do it again? Still +1 str.

Rad grenades + HH should be enough with Force Weps most of the time anyway...

No, not at all.

The unit chooses to cast HH and passes. They are now S5

The libby chooses to cast HH and passes, they are now S+1 == S5+1 == S6

They stack because they are not taken at the same time, and the strength modification applied applies to their profile.

If HH gives +1 and a second HH is cast, it already has +1, so no stacking. It does however kick in prior to doubling for Thunderhammers. So your S4 unit becomes S5 and then gets doubled. That is Instant Killing stuff.

Powers that stack are clearly labeled as such. Contrast HH with Might of Titan. So, HH + MoT gets you S6.

Also, Rad Grenades clearly state they lower ID threshold.

The book seems strong enough, quit hunting for Easter Eggs!

Homer

I really don't think that Draigo, a Librarian, Terminators, and Justicar Thawn are going to be allowed to go running around at S9/I10 (Hammerhand, Hammerhand, MoT, Hammerhand, Hammerhand, Quicksilver) against -1T enemies in the assault phase.

sourclams wrote:I really don't think that Draigo, a Librarian, Terminators, and Justicar Thawn are going to be allowed to go running around at S9/I10 (Hammerhand, Hammerhand, MoT, Hammerhand, Hammerhand, Quicksilver) against -1T enemies in the assault phase.

When I read this I got an image of 40k whack-a-mole with the 4 guys running around franticly with hammers.

targetawg wrote:When I read this I got an image of 40k whack-a-mole with the 4 guys running around franticly with hammers.

LOL

Now I have that image in my head, with a big roll of tickets scrolling at their feet!

Homer

GCMandrake wrote:There's nothing stopping you using Hammerhand twice on a unit. Couple with Rad grenades, and indeed you can be S6 vs T3 on T4 enemies. There aren't many T4 enemies with 2 or more wounds though, Nobs are the only that spring to mind.

Rad grenades however, do not stack.

Paladins are T4 two wounds. Most of the "lesser" MEQ HQ choices (librarians, Chaplains, Rune Priests, Wolf Priests, WGBL etc.)

As an aside I believe the wording is a unit affected by HH gains +1 str. +1 to the base str of the unit so casting it a second time would only give a +1 to the base str again meaning it doesn't stack. Rules that can stack clearly state it usually. Yet another thing we will be waiting for GW to FAQ I feel...

Homer - the first HH modifies your profile. The second modifies your already modified profile. Easy.

Sorry, it DOES stack currently. The same bonus from different sources has been repeated FAQ'd to Stack, e.g. Lictor and Hive Commander (exact same +1 bonus to reserves, different sources)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Homer - the first HH modifies your profile. The second modifies your already modified profile. Easy.

Sorry, it DOES stack currently. The same bonus from different sources has been repeated FAQ'd to Stack, e.g. Lictor and Hive Commander (exact same +1 bonus to reserves, different sources)

That's not a very good comparison. Lictor + Lictor does not stack and Hive Commander + Hive Commander does not stack. Lictor + Hive Commander are 2 different abilities that have a similar effect, not the exact same ability. That seems to be a point of contention in a lot of places, and while I don't really know the wording on Hammer Hand all that well, comparing it to Lictor and Hive Commander working together is not a fair comparison.

Would anyone mind quoting the special rule in question?

It was pointing out the rule from different sources, at different steps. Reserves isnt great especially as they all occur simultaneously. Psychic powers are NOT cast simultaneously.

GK Dex, page 25 wrote:.....If the Psychic test is passed, all models in the unit (including Independent Characters) have +1 Strength until the end of the ASsault phase. Note that this strength bonus is applied before....

You pass 1 psychic test, your unit is at S4+1 = S5. Their profile now says S5

You cast it again, you now increase their strength by 1. Their strength is now S6, as it increases the strength on their statline (which has been modified) by 1

If you attempt to claim modifiers dont count, then a unit with I4(5) gaining furious charge still strikes at I5 with that logic, and ID would not need to change the rules to make it clear that modifiers to toughness dont count.

This combo looks legal, and far more horrifying to an Ork player than S8 Rifleman dreads.

Agree, seems perfectly fine. Stuff that is not supposed to stack is worded that way (Waaagh! banners for example).

If Furious Charge from multiple sources doesn't stack, why would Hammerhand from multiple sources stack?

Because the rule says so? Any model with FC gets +1 I/S. If it has 42 instances of that USR it is still a model with Furious Charge.

sourclams wrote:If Furious Charge from multiple sources doesn't stack, why would Hammerhand from multiple sources stack?

Because FC is not the same as Hammerhand?

This is similar to the stealth issue. Long ago I postulated that since stealth gives the unit +1 cover saves, each model with stealth would add their bonus together. There is no real reason it doesn't, but no one plays it that it does. I expect hammerhand will be the same.

There is nothing saying it doesn't stack, but I somehow doubt anyone will allow it. I also expect it will be FAQ'd if it becomes an issue.

Given the points cost investment in a unit that is required to get doublehammer hand, that doesnt seem to be an issue that needs resolving away from alllowing it.

Nerrik wrote:
Lictor + Lictor does not stack and Hive Commander + Hive Commander does not stack.

And we know why. Because the book says they specifically do not stack.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

GK Dex, page 25 wrote:.....If the Psychic test is passed, all models in the unit (including Independent Characters) have +1 Strength until the end of the ASsault phase. Note that this strength bonus is applied before....

What's the last part say? Do you actually add the hammerhand bonus prior to doubling str as with a power fist or thunder hammer?