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I never see a list where Space Marine vehicles sport extra armor. Is the upgrade considered too expensive or the benefit not worth the value? I normally play eldar and wouldn't think of taking a grav tank without Spirit Stones, which do essentially the same thing. So why not Rhinos, Predators, Vindicators, and Landraiders (not mentioning Whirlwinds here since I don't plan to play them)?

If you have a terminator/vanguard delivery LR, it's pretty much mandatory. If its just an ablative metal box, who cares? It all depends on the mission for it.

Because not being able to move for a single turn isn't that big a deal for most units, and in any case stunned results don't come up that often. On Rhinos you are paying for a 15pt upgrade on a 35pt vehicle, which isn't a great use of points on a relatively fragile vehicle. Units which use Rhinos don't tend to mind being stuck for a turn either, they don't usually need to rush to get in close as soon as possible (as Rhinos are a terrible way for delivering Assault units anyway) and in lists which do use Rhinos to get in close (like Sisters for example) there is usually plenty of redundancy so its not a problem. I should also point out that everything which can use Rhinos can do ok on foot anyway (3+ saves except in a few rare cases), which is completely different to Eldar units, who get squashed flat outside of a transport.

Land Raiders, Vindicators and assault based Dreadnought are the main candidates for extra armour. Land Raiders tend to be used to deliver assault units, and you don't want to delay that any more than you have to. Given that they are also more likely to end up in close its also nice being able to back out again rather than being stuck for a turn and then auto hit in assault. In can also be helpful on Vindicators, as their limited range means they usually need to move to be able to shoot in the first place. Assault Dreads can also benefit from Extra Armour, once you get to combat you don't care if it can't shoot.

I always take extra armor on a venerable dread or a landraider. It's really because of how much you've invested into dread or landraider. But a 35 point rhino? No point...skip it on a couple and you could afford a 3rd rhino. A 3rd rhino would be more useful, generally.

Gavin Thorne wrote:I never see a list where Space Marine vehicles sport extra armor. Is the upgrade considered too expensive or the benefit not worth the value? I normally play eldar and wouldn't think of taking a grav tank without Spirit Stones, which do essentially the same thing. So why not Rhinos, Predators, Vindicators, and Landraiders (not mentioning Whirlwinds here since I don't plan to play them)?

EA is something that only downgrades 1/6 of the possible outcomes when a vehicle is damaged. Not exactly a thrilling choice, at any point level. At 15 points it is absurd to take it more than once (if even that). WH get their EA at 5 pts, and I can't even recommend it even at that price point.

Eldar doesn't actually need the stones, though its nice to have. The biggest reason why eldar players take them, is they are justifiably afraid of being caught out in the open. Eldar grav tanks are fast, but not fast enough to make up for lost turns of moving. I feel its a take it or leave it option, but many people just assume the tanks cost 10 pts more than the book say it does (which is already overpriced)

My opinion for marines: skip EA, its not worth it, and if you have a lynchpin unit that needs to keep moving, maybe you shouldn't be putting your strategy into so few models (the typical LR carrying deathstar scenario).

I NEVER take EA in marines, even with termies riding LRs

On termie landraider, EA is mandatory IMO. Without it, it is much easier to stop your big hitters. You'll hit yourself when that 15 "saving" loses you the game.

On rhinos, preds etc it's a waste

On dreads it can be worth it sometimes, f.ex. on a BA libby dread. On normal dreads, it is too expensive

EA is something that only downgrades 1/6 of the possible outcomes when a vehicle is damaged. Not exactly a thrilling choice, at any point level.

But take into account that glances now have to roll a 6 on the damage table (Assuming non-AP1) to stop your vehicle from rolling forward and it starts being a little more appealing. Especially on a land raider where missle launchers and powerfists and similar can only glance you to begin with.

Not something to take on your tactical squad transporting rhino generally, heck all I really want my tacticals to do half the time is sit on an objective and just manage to not die...But on a vehicle that starts at around 250 points, transporting at least another 200 points inside..an extra 15 points is insurance so cheap you deserve everything you get should you go without.

My vanguard or TH terminators NEED to get into combat. 15 points make that a lot more likely.

SOFDC wrote:

EA is something that only downgrades 1/6 of the possible outcomes when a vehicle is damaged. Not exactly a thrilling choice, at any point level.

But take into account that glances now have to roll a 6 on the damage table (Assuming non-AP1) to stop your vehicle from rolling forward and it starts being a little more appealing. Especially on a land raider where missle launchers and powerfists and similar can only glance you to begin with.

Not something to take on your tactical squad transporting rhino generally, heck all I really want my tacticals to do half the time is sit on an objective and just manage to not die...But on a vehicle that starts at around 250 points, transporting at least another 200 points inside..an extra 15 points is insurance so cheap you deserve everything you get should you go without.

My vanguard or TH terminators NEED to get into combat. 15 points make that a lot more likely.

Glances happen 1/6 times with the pen roll. Stunned happen 1/6 on the glance roll (shaken happens on 1/2). Soooo stunned is even less likely than you would think from weapons that can only glance. Its 1/6 chance period. The chance to immobilize has no bearing on stunned results or whether EA is a good investment. You are not paying 15 points to "halve" your chances of not moving, you are paying 15 points insurance that an event that only happens 1/6 times when a damage roll is being made. On rhinos, this almost would make sense, except it costs too much. On LRs it doesn't make much sense because not much will get a chance to make a roll against it. The only LR I think EA is worth it on is the redeemer, because it is 10 pts cheaper than the regular LR and LRC (which makes the upgrade effectively 5 pts) and the fact that it is completely and utterly useless if it can't move (1 assault cannon as its ranged weapon is not too good).

Really Vanguard? How do you arm them? I can't think of any way to make them anything resembling cost efficient and effective at the same time. TH/SS don't "need" to get into combat. They can do a fine job creating a "don't go here" bubble, and/or absorbing fire.

Thanks for the feedback here, I appreciate helping me make the modelling and list choices for my burgeoning Crimson Fists. Now I don't have to worry about casting up copies of the armor I've sculpted for my rhino.

I'm planning on using vanguard in conjunction with a drop pod list, 4 vets with LC's and a TH/SS sarge. They'll DS with assistance from locator beacons on the pods, hopefully in range of Kantor's +1A bubble. It's overcosted and more fragile compared to Assault Termies, but fits the fluffy theme of my army having lost many of it's tactical dreadnought suits and having to compensate in other ways.

Only on expensive assault vehicles. On rhinos your payin half a rhino for a small chance to negate somethin, and on shooty tanks, they need to be doing more shooting, and less moving. As an ork player, I take armour plating(same thing) on my battlewagons because they need to move move move, and because it costs 5 less for orks.