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Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







Here's the first of five general templates for Dark Eldar army construction. I may not get around to the others for a while though, got quite a lot of work to do....

The Kabal Template ~A Competitive Guide~

The Kabal template is the basic Dark Eldar list. Most new players gravitate to it instinctively, as its the easiest general strategy the DE have to play with on the tabletop, and mastering it will give you the capability to move on to more complex styles. It embodies the 'Glass Hammer' style of the Dark Eldar at its finest, in that it cannot take a tremendous amount of punishment, and will fail quite miserably should it be misplayed, but, by applying the right amount of force to the right place on the battlefield, will crush a foe. That is the Kabal template strategy at its most basic level.

To expound in more detail, the Kabal list relies on three elements upon the battlefield. The first is speed. Just about every unit in a Kabal list will be mounted, count as beasts/jump infantry, or deep striked. This general army wide maneovrability, being far in excess of anything most foes are capable of, allows you to follow the basic 40K recipe for success, otherwise known as, 'Shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones'. You annihilate combat units with firepower before they can touch you, and bring down enemy support fire units in combat, where they are weak. Every Rnaged unit you take should be specialised, carrying either solely anti-tank, or anti-infantry firepower as a general rule of thumb. You should only multi-task a unit if you can do so for a minimum of cost, and if the capability to multi-task does not dilute a units capbilities seriously in one field.

The second element is general firepower. The Kabal list makes use of the ability to cram as many effective guns in as possible. It will usually be of a decent range as well, so Dark Lances and Splinter Cannons are your friends. Ideally, a Kabal list should outgun any opponent not entirely dedicated to long range firepower, and be capable of exchanging equal shots with those that are. However, a Kabal list should possess one other thing, to give them an edge in such a scenario, the third element.

That third element is the counter-attack. 'Sounds like pretty basic strategy' I hear you say? Yes. It is basic strategy. But in order to play successfully with Dark Eldar, you must have honed your basic strategy to a near-perfect level. Marine players can afford to make a few mistakes. Dark Eldar cannot. They are too fragile. And so the counter-attack must be perfectly executed. Ideally, a Kabal list should have a minimum of one solid close combat unit. And they cannot afford to be of minimum size either. No skimping. The Counter attack must be capable of demolishing an enemy unit in the space of two combats, and being able to continue the charge, and roll up a foe's battle line. However, the key is knowing when and where to commit your assault troops. And that's where the basics come into play.

For the Kabal List, launching a perfectly synchonised attack is everything. The strategy is basic, simple, and difficult for an unskilled player to pull off. Your speed allows you to dictate where on the battlefield you engage the enemy. Being able to do this means that even if your foe has equal shooting power to you, odds are that they cannot move and shoot. Your capability to do just that means that you can bring the full might of your guns to bear on one section of the enemy army, whilst being out of range of the rest. Having eliminated any serious threat to your assault troops, you then counter-attack, and obliterate the enemy. Therefore unit placement at the start of a game is integral. You must know, as soon as you've taken a look at what you're facing, and seen the board, exactly what your strategy is going to be. You must have examined your opponents units, analysed the greatest threats in priority order, figured out the greatest terrain advantage and fire lanes, and deployed accordingly. For the Kabal list, half the battle is won in the deployment phase. You should have formulated your strategy, and deployed accordingly. If you screw it up, odds are that you won't get a second chance. The basics are essential. Master them and win. Ignore them and lose. As simple as that.

So. Target Priority. Simply put, you must label each enemy unit in roughly the following order:
1.Enemy Long Range firepower
2.Enemy Mobility
3.Enemy Combat Troops
4.Everything Else in threat order.

Your first target is the Enemy Long Range Firepower. Your vehicles are weak. Any long range heavy weapons pose a serious threat to them, and so should be destroyed accordingly. Lascannons, Shuriken Cannons, Heavy Gauss Cannons, Autocannons, Multi-lasers and so on. However, if you succeed in rendering a enemy gun useless for a turn, move on. The trick is to negate the enemy firepower. Destroying it entirely is secondary. If I see an enemy Vendetta, and succeed in Shaking it, and there are two more Vendettas in range, I will focus on the remaining two. Because the simple fact is, it cannot return fire next turn. The other two can. Therefore the other two will now rank higher in the Target Priority list. Simple as that really.

Second is enemy mobility. To phrase it differently, their ability to get around the board. Assuming you've picked out and silenced the long range firepower, the only options a foe should should have is to get into medium firepower range (so 24 inches maximum usually), or close combat. And that's the beauty of the splinter cannon and dark lance. If you outrange a foe, you can weaken them with firepower at your leisure. If they move and don't shoot, so as to be in range the following turn, you can move out of range AND shoot. If they're combat troops, they likely have a delivery method, usually a transport. Blow the transport, and the combat soldiers are forced to slog across the board, chasing you in a race they can never win. You, in the meanwhile, get to shower them with firepower, and dance around one step ahead of them, never quite within assault range. By eliminating an enemies mobility, you also destroy their capability to deploy onto objectives at the last minute.

Third, enemy combat troops. This is for those combat troops capable of moving more than six inches a turn. So those with jetpacks, cavalry, jump infantry, beasts, and so on. You'll note deep strikers aren't included here, that's because a deep striker can't assault immediately after hitting the board generally, allowing you to quickly jump out of assault range. Destroying mobile combat troops is essential, because they can swamp your vehicles, and generally keep up with them, which is a most undesirable feature in prey. Sometimes, destroying them can even be more important then enemy mobility, that's something you have to decide on the fly, depending on what you're facing.

Fourth, everything else. And to be frank, everything else is irrelevant. If you've taken out the above, you've won. You're faster, and will have more firepower.

Now things don't usually go to plan. If your enemy has too much firepower, or too many combat troops, or just generally too much for you to handle feasibly, that's where the counter-attack comes in. The counter-attack should be at the turning point, dedicated to the most critical point of the battle. It should, in short, be the thing that defeats your opponents weakest point. The application of suitable pressure at just the right spot. Two combat units usually, thrown in to finish off a weakened foe's death star combat unit just before it hits your lines, to intercept the unit they're planning on committing to holding an objective, to taking out their most troublesome ranged squad. Your combat units should be carefully husbanded until you know the precise time to commit them. Do it too early, and watch them getting munched by the not weakened death star, or shot up because they destroyed one enemy unit and got caught out in the open. It's basic, but key.

That, in a nutshell, is the Kabal engagement strategy.

So. The Kabal Army List. As mentioned, you want as many guns as you can cram in whilst still maintaining a combat edge. The trick is to capitalise on points to guns cost for maximum efficiency. So presuming you want Dark Lances, points for guns wise, these are the best units in ascending preference.

1. Ravager. 105 points for a ravager with 3 Dark Lances = 35 points per Dark Lance
2. Trueborn. 86 points for 3 Trueborn with 2 Dark Lances = 43 points per Dark Lance
3. Raider. 60 points per Raider with 1 Dark Lance = 60 points per Dark Lance
4. Scourges. 140 points for 5 Scourges with 2 Dark lances = 70 points per Dark Lance
5. Razorwing. 145 points for 2 Dark Lances = 72.5 points per Dark Lance
6. Warriors. 115 points for 10 Warriors with 1 Dark Lance = 115 points per Dark Lance

As can be seen, The Ravager is clearly the optimum platform with which to mount Dark Lances in terms of points efficiency.

To do the same again for Splinter Cannons.

1. Trueborn. 56 points for 3 Trueborn with 2 Splinter Cannons = 28 points per Splinter Cannon
2. Venom. 65 points for a Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons = 32.5 points per Splinter Cannon
3. Scourges. 130 points for 5 Scourges with 2 Splinter Cannons = 65 points per Splinter Cannon
4. Warriors. 100 points for 10 Warriors for 1 Splinter Cannon = 100 points per Splinter Cannon.

Using the figures outlined above, Trueborn shine once again. As can be evidently seen, Trueborn are the choice to make when examining optimum fire output. However, Venoms fall only ever so slightly behind them in points cost, and being a transport and vehicle to boot, are infinitely hardier, making them clearly preferable when looking to take the maximum number of splinter cannons.

For Blasters and Heat Lances (grouped together as they have similar intention -to tank bust- and range).

1. Trueborn. 108 points for 4 Trueborn with 4 Blasters = 27 points per Blaster
2. Warriors. 60 points for 5 Warriors with 1 Blaster = 60 points per Blaster
3. Scourges. 134 points for 5 Scourges with 2 Heat Lances = 67 points per Heat Lance
4. Scourges. 140 points for 5 Scourges with 2 Blasters = 70 points per Blaster
5. Reavers. 78 points for 3 Reavers with 1 Heat Lance = 78 points per Heat Lance
6. Reavers. 81 points for 3 Reavers with 1 Heat Lance = 81 points per Blaster
7. Talos. 115 points for Talos with Twin Linked Heat Lance = 115 points per Heat Lance

As ever, the Trueborn top the charts. It quickly becomes apparent why 3 units of Trueborn are the obvious choice for any competitive Kabal List. Yet Warriors, despite falling near the bottom in the other two weapon for points comparisons, strike near the top in this one, clearly indicating their optimum use and configuration.

Whilst the simple displays I have laid out above do not account for other capabilities of the units in question, like transport capacity, objective holding, shardcarbines, and so on, the trick is to try and get the most bang for your buck whilst retaining maximum usefulness. By gauging the best way to put guns on the table, you can construct your army around that in the best possible fashion.

In terms of combat, it is generally presumed that a Kabal List will have all 3 Elites and Heavy Support slots filled up for the reasons given above. As such, this leaves only the Troops, HQ, and Fast Attack options open for your combat units.

Now as troops choices to hold objectives are clearly desirable, with the conditions for winning missions what they are, Wyches become an obvious selection. Taking a unit of 9 in a Raider (with a flickerfield), with a shardnet and Impaler to help combat HQ'S and MC's, a Hekatrix with an Agoniser & Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Haywire Grenades, and a Haemonculus with a Liquifier Gun may weigh in at a hefty 288 points, but gives a solid close combat unit capable of counter-attacking with considerable force.

The second option for causing serious damage remaining in the available slot would be a Beastmaster unit. The usual cheap and cheerful minimum unit available consists of 3 Beastsmasters, 5 Khymerae, and 4 Razorwing Flocks, at 156 points. Such a unit has a large quantity of wounds of different types for allocation purposes, an invulnerable save where necessary, and several rending attacks.

Presuming you leave a Elites slot open, a small unit of Incubi can be of use. 5 Incubi in a Venom with a second splinter cannon, equipped with a Klaivex with Onslaught costs a mere 205 points. An Incubi can be subtracted to make room for a suitably tooled up Archon, or Haemonculi as well.

The last and final option available for a Kabal list is units of Wracks, presuming you take a minimum of 1 Haemonculi. At 10 points apiece, a squad of 5 can fit inside a Venom and take a liquifier gun for a cheap 125 points. Probably the worst possible support combat unit for the counter-attack, as the cheapest of the lot, it can be squeezed in, assuming you don't have many points to spare. They also double up as being capable of holding objectives.

Ultimately, the trick when creating your army list is to combine the points efficiency given for guns above, with the combat units given above, and vary the amount of points given over to firepower, and the amount of points given over to assault units based on personal preference. As you learn how to wield your army, and what your local meta and tournaments are running, you'll come to adapt your list for what is ultimately best suited for it. At least, that's the theory.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/03/27 21:09:20



 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Great guide Ketara!

I recently switched to a wych cult (which I'm sure will get an archetype article from you soon). For the reader, culminating his advice into a sample army 2,000 point list:

Darklight Storm:

HQ: Baron Sathonyx
HQ: Haemonculi with Shattershard and Crucible of Malediction

Troop1: 5x Warriors with one Blaster in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Troop2: 5x Warriors with one Blaster in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Troop3: 5x Warriors with one Blaster in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Troop4: 5x Warriors with one Blaster in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Troop5: 5x Warriors with one Blaster in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Troop6: 9x Wyches with Haywire Grenades, 1x Hydra Gauntlet in a Raider with a Dark Lance and Flickerfield

Elite1: 4x Trueborn with 4x Blasters in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Elite2: 4x Trueborn with 4x Blasters in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Elite3: 3x Trueborn with 3x Blasters in a Dual Splintercannon Venom

Fast Attack1: 3x Beastmasters, 5x Khymerae, 4x Razorwing Flocks

Heavy Support1: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances and a Flickerfield
Heavy Support2: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances and a Flickerfield
Heavy Support3: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances and a Flickerfield

Tactical Analysis:
The advice I give people regarding kabal armies tends to aim at this kind of archetype, and I see its use becoming more prevalent.

1. A kabal is heavily vested in its ability to shut down enemy firepower to preserve itself - getting the "Alpha Strike" is critical. Having Baron Sathonyx along to grant +1 to your roll to go first is an asset without equal in this regard.

2. The wyches provide a solid close combat unit, and the haemonculi gives them a pain token from the start for Feel No Pain to extend their survivability. I consider them a mandatory unit in a TAC army because of the haywire grenades - they are the only answer to Monoliths and Blessed Hull landraiders; while also being a powerful tool against any other vehicles.

3. Baron Sathonyx runs with the beast unit to give them +1 cover to extend their survivability. He also grants them offensive and defensive grenades, letting them assault at their normal initiative through cover. I juggle between 5x Khmerae and 9-10 Khymerae (at the cost of a trueborn or two and wargear). The unit has flexiiblity - the Razorwing rending can penetrate rear armour, khymerae can glance it, and against infantry, they can use the Baron to pile in and generally strike first, or separate to get a 12" assault.

4. This army has enough Darklight weaponry to literally cover the battlefield in it - if 40k happened in realtime, there would literally be a storm of darklight weaponry streaming across the battlefield - thus the name 'Darklight Storm." While it doesn't guarantee a vehicle-less enemy army in one turn, Ketara has outlined the spirit of it; a shaken enemy vehicle means that a DE vehicle will likely survive as a result.

5. Just as important is the prevalence of splinter weaponry amongst the venoms and warriors. Against Spacewolves, two squads of longfangs will statistically fall to splinter cannons....BEFORE darklight weaponry even opens fire. Dealing with the infantry that spill out of a wrecked or exploded transport is important - and depending on their contents, can be just as important as neutralizing the vehicle itself.

This is my vision of the perfected kabal taking the field. It isn't the only working kabal theme, but it is the one that I've tailored to what I consider to be the height of competitive possibility, and encouraged others to try continuously. I've since returned to my roots as a Wych Cult player, but this army in the hands of a capable player is literally unparalleled on the field in its ability to inspire terror in your feeble enemies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/27 23:06:12


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Eternal Plague

I think this is the best explanation of how to start DE I have ever seen.

Definately something to add towards the stickied thread for compiled tactica.

So when are you going to square off versus DoP in a DE Mirror Match (that reminds me to lern Vassal to face DoP one day...)?

   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

It is a good start. It asumes two things, or hinges on two things.

No I am saying it wrong. Anyway. Lances are very good. A good range. But a blaster is the same, you can move, and as long as you are withing range the blaster is as good as the lance.

This also asumes a bit that you are facing mech (witch will be true most of the time.) If you fight units withouth MC's or tanks (foot imperial guard or foot eldar comes to mind) your lances do very little, and you poison weaponds only damadge on 4+. In those circumstances it could be good to have some CC abilaties. This is very rare, and usualy they will also have a lott of weaponds designed to take out tanks and not foot, so it will not be so bad against a WWP list but a good matchup against a transport heavy.

This will almoast never happen. Dark Eldar are good and it is a very good breakdown.

Also, you can unclude a small unit of wytches (or use trueborn) for the haywire greandes vs landraiders and monoliths.

Edit: OK, I skimmed the post. I am an ass, I saw the part about blasters further down. That is what you get for watching doctor who and reading at the same time.

It is very very good.

Edit edit: It apears I am running a mild fewer. sorry for the sillynes of my posts.

Anyway, I have had some time to sober up my thoughts and these are to the creator of this good post. :-)

1: I should be worth noting that the splinter cannon is really all about poison attacks and not the splinter cannon per say. Should it not be worth posting points per attack at warriors splinter rifle (both at 24 and 12) and notice that the venom splinter cannon is better then the other since they are on a mech and so always can shoot 6 instead of 4?

2: Under blasters, mention that the arcon blaster is expensve, but it is a higer BS. (and this includes pistol of you get it in CC range.)

3: Is there anyway to calculate in the survivabilaty of the guns vs cost? A spliter cannon in a warrior squad has a mutch higer survivabilaty then one in a 3 man trueborn squad.

4: A blaster in a warrior squad / lance is not as cool as a spliter cannon since all the other units spliter attacks will also be abel to damadge. (And sutch a unit of 10 warriors with a splinter cannon is that mutch better at 12" then full splinter cannon range.)

5: while dark eldar tend to winn big or lose big, is it posible to do a mathhammer survivabilaty of units that will hold objectives? This might be hard to do with wytches as it really depends on weather they are in CC but something like how many laser cannon shots it takes to kill 10 wracks vs lasergun, bolters, autocannons, missile launcher contra warriors with a haemoncyly and not a haemonculy. And is there anyway to calculate in a survivabilaty of a transport in there? And a transport vs the same weaponds.

6: There should be an entry of MSU, wasted attacks vs multi purpose units etc.

7: I know this is an IMPOSIBLE question, but is there an averedge attack expectancy strategy of top tournament lists with how many weaponds to expet at direfent point levels and how many weehekels with flcikerfield/cover to expect at direfent point levels mathhammer. Or some sort of calculating you can do. Say a las cannon is a certain % and a twinlinked lascannon a slightly higer % and then you can calculate yourself up to how many of your transports that you will get shot down turn 1, and then you can count the number of %, look at the amount of wehekels you have and then you can do a ruff estemate if you should deploy in reserves or not?

Dash regarding your 'Darklight Storm.', aparantly the dark eldar enjoys fighting in the shade. (Yes a 300 joke)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/03/27 23:45:31


   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







Niiai wrote:It is a good start. It asumes two things, or hinges on two things.

No I am saying it wrong. Anyway. Lances are very good. A good range. But a blaster is the same, you can move, and as long as you are withing range the blaster is as good as the lance.

This also asumes a bit that you are facing mech (witch will be true most of the time.) If you fight units withouth MC's or tanks (foot imperial guard or foot eldar comes to mind) your lances do very little, and you poison weaponds only damadge on 4+. In those circumstances it could be good to have some CC abilaties. This is very rare, and usualy they will also have a lott of weaponds designed to take out tanks and not foot, so it will not be so bad against a WWP list but a good matchup against a transport heavy.

This will almoast never happen. Dark Eldar are good and it is a very good breakdown.

Also, you can unclude a small unit of wytches (or use trueborn) for the haywire greandes vs landraiders and monoliths.

Edit: OK, I skimmed the post. I am an ass, I saw the part about blasters further down. That is what you get for watching doctor who and reading at the same time.

It is very very good.

Edit edit: It apears I am running a mild fewer. sorry for the sillynes of my posts.

Anyway, I have had some time to sober up my thoughts and these are to the creator of this good post. :-)

1: I should be worth noting that the splinter cannon is really all about poison attacks and not the splinter cannon per say. Should it not be worth posting points per attack at warriors splinter rifle (both at 24 and 12) and notice that the venom splinter cannon is better then the other since they are on a mech and so always can shoot 6 instead of 4?

2: Under blasters, mention that the arcon blaster is expensve, but it is a higer BS. (and this includes pistol of you get it in CC range.)

3: Is there anyway to calculate in the survivabilaty of the guns vs cost? A spliter cannon in a warrior squad has a mutch higer survivabilaty then one in a 3 man trueborn squad.

4: A blaster in a warrior squad / lance is not as cool as a spliter cannon since all the other units spliter attacks will also be abel to damadge. (And sutch a unit of 10 warriors with a splinter cannon is that mutch better at 12" then full splinter cannon range.)

5: while dark eldar tend to winn big or lose big, is it posible to do a mathhammer survivabilaty of units that will hold objectives? This might be hard to do with wytches as it really depends on weather they are in CC but something like how many laser cannon shots it takes to kill 10 wracks vs lasergun, bolters, autocannons, missile launcher contra warriors with a haemoncyly and not a haemonculy. And is there anyway to calculate in a survivabilaty of a transport in there? And a transport vs the same weaponds.

6: There should be an entry of MSU, wasted attacks vs multi purpose units etc.

7: I know this is an IMPOSIBLE question, but is there an averedge attack expectancy strategy of top tournament lists with how many weaponds to expet at direfent point levels and how many weehekels with flcikerfield/cover to expect at direfent point levels mathhammer. Or some sort of calculating you can do. Say a las cannon is a certain % and a twinlinked lascannon a slightly higer % and then you can calculate yourself up to how many of your transports that you will get shot down turn 1, and then you can count the number of %, look at the amount of wehekels you have and then you can do a ruff estemate if you should deploy in reserves or not?

Dash regarding your 'Darklight Storm.', aparantly the dark eldar enjoys fighting in the shade. (Yes a 300 joke)


Niiai, I think you're getting the wrong idea here about the purpose of my post (which shall be an article tomorrow). When it comes down to figuring other factors into the decision over which to unit to take for firepower, you'll note I added the disclaimer:-
Whilst the simple displays I have laid out above do not account for other capabilities of the units in question, like transport capacity, objective holding, shardcarbines, and so on, the trick is to try and get the most bang for your buck whilst retaining maximum usefulness.


I'm not trying to say one combo is better than another, because ultimately it comes down to personal taste past a certain point. For example, Dash likes 4 Blasters on his trueborn. I'm quite partial to 3 blasters and 2 splinter cannons on mine. So yes, Warriors do get additional shots along with splinter cannons, but venoms get transport capacity, etc. There really is no way to quantify what is 'better', bar personal judgement.

Also, I didn't include pistols in the lineup of guns above, because to be frank, if you're trying to structure a firepower army around pistols, you have the wrong idea altogether.

This is a template on the basic construction and strategy behind a kabal style list, not an exhausting mathematical breakdown of which unit is better than which unit.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/28 00:02:58



 
   
Made in us
Lethal Lhamean






Venice, Florida

Ketara wrote:Here's the first of five general templates for Dark Eldar army construction. I may not get around to the others for a while though, got quite a lot of work to do....

Oi! Now you're just trying to make it hard for me to write up Army types in my Tactica without just sourcing you, aren't ya?

Pretty strongly disagree about the way you're talking about assault in there. There are so many levels of assault within Kabals (from non-existent/speedbumps up to taking 3-4 Wyches/Incubi) that I think you're oversimplifying it with the commentary about massed squads and even in calling it counterstriking (I consider it attacking for defensive purposes, and I'll admit I don't have a perfect turn of phrase for it - but certainly it's more than counterstriking). I dunno, I don't consider what I field to be a mixed army of Kabal/Cult - and have always considered myself a Kabal style player, but Kabal can be and is far more varied on the assault element than I think you're implying.

*Love* the point breakdown on the weapons. Fascinating to see because I never did that, but sort of just "felt" where the values were good. Nice to see my gut was backed by glorious math. That was an excellent idea to include and really helps strike home why certain units are advocated so much above others.

@Dash - Baron with Beasts? That's actually, by far, the best use for him I've ever seen. Nice.

Thor665's Dark Eldar Tactica - A comprehensive guide to all things DE (Totally finished...till I update bits and pieces!)
Thor665's battle reports DE vs. assorted armies.
Splintermind: The Dark Eldar Podcast It's a podcast, about Dark Eldar.
Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665 is actually a Dark Eldar god, manifested into electronic bytes and presented here on dakkadakka to bring pain and destruction to all lesser races. Read his tactica, read his forums posts, and when he deigns to critique or advise you directly, bookmark it and pay attention.
 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

"There are no bad ideas during brainstorming." - Alec Baldwin.

I agree that you should not mention pistols but it is hard to talk about blasters and not mention the jevel that is the high bs arcon. If you where to do a diferent representation witch is % of hitting with a darklight weapon the arcon will come ut ahead of the warriors per point cost. Add that to the fact that you can attach the arcon to a small trueborn squad in a venom/raider or a blaster squad of warriors in a raider it is odd that he is not included as he runs at 75 points for BS 7.

The blasters and lances are cool but the splinter cannon is the same splinter shot only with better range. It could be good to include a breakdown of splinter weaponds in general under splinter cannons if this is to become a DE sticky.

On scourges you are paying 65 per splinter cannon - true, but you are only paying 6,1 (7,6) for each splinter shot up to 18" away (7,6 if you want to be abel to charge afterwards) while on the venom you are paying 5,41 per splinter shot up to full range.

On warriors you are paying 4,5 per shot up to 12". I agree that this sods up the statistics and sutch will be confusing. What if you put up some slinter cannon attacks per range profile? One for splinter shots fiered up to 36" (moving and non moving) shots up to 24 (moving and non moving) up to 18 (moving and non moving) and up to 12 (moving and non moving.) Some of the entries that come worse out then the venom on the original scematic will get increasingly better as the distance is closed. (And no do not include guns.)

I agree that while your breakdown is exelent, it can become even better. Since you never know how smart the person reading your post is at looking at the flippside of facts like this post (cost efiency) it might contribute to even more people giving bad advice about dark eldar:

To ilustrate, say 10 people read this and then start saying that the trueborn is the best way to get splinter cannons and hence poison weaponds. While that is true at a 36" range the venom is better for moving and shooting as you are paying less for each shot. Also, you are not factoring in the distance as shard carbines and rifels easaly outdo the venom when it comes to shot fiered at fiferent ranges. (and it is basisyly the same shot.) (A venom at 65 points throw out a cost of 5,41 per shot fiered while a warrior squad are at 4,5 points per shot at a range of 12".)

People are always saying that you, dash, bosso(?) and the blessing are the best people on dark eldar advice, so we might as well make it as fool proof as posible when rasing dark eldar awarenes. (Sorry if I seem rude, I know I am but I am only trying to make this good guide even better.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/28 00:41:40


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Thor665 wrote:

@Dash - Baron with Beasts? That's actually, by far, the best use for him I've ever seen. Nice.


The Dark Eldar God himself praising me? I think I just made a mess in my pants.

Seriously though, while I've picked up flack for doing it because it takes away the beasts 12" charge...he doesn't *have* to stay with them.

   
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Venice, Florida

Niiai wrote:I agree that you should not mention pistols but it is hard to talk about blasters and not mention the jevel that is the high bs arcon. If you where to do a diferent representation witch is % of hitting with a darklight weapon the arcon will come ut ahead of the warriors per point cost. Add that to the fact that you can attach the arcon to a small trueborn squad in a venom/raider or a blaster squad of warriors in a raider it is odd that he is not included as he runs at 75 points for BS 7.

That's actually a good point, though I think the BS goes beyond the scope of what Ketara was trying to do. He also didn't do a breakdown of the viability of Blasters vs. Heat Lances which is a whole different kettle of fish as well. You could always generate the more in-depth charts and I'd be happy to utilize them within the DE Tactica. I do think you're looking for information that is beyond the point of general heavy/special weapon spam, which is what Ketara was illustrating.

Niiai wrote:People are always saying that you, dash, bosso(?) and the blessing are the best people on dark eldar advice

Man! Personal stock drops really quick on internet forums, doesn't it? I need to fire my publicist.

Isn't Bosso that '100 Games with DE' guy? I definitely need to fire my publicist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dashofpepper wrote:The Dark Eldar God himself praising me? I think I just made a mess in my pants.

I hope you were not in a public place...

Dashofpepper wrote:Seriously though, while I've picked up flack for doing it because it takes away the beasts 12" charge...he doesn't *have* to stay with them.

Flak for that? Dude, that's the closest anyone has ever gotten me to really wanting to try to field him in a competitive mix, I actually feel dumb for not thinking about it myself. With Beasts you're actually fielding him with an affordable and functional unit (unlike the Hellions) and his abilities are even in line with what their mission goal is. The only thing I had was adding him into a Footdar DE list with Wracks or Harlequins for a very gnarly cover save front line but yours is way better and is actually something I'd field. I'm going to have to test that one out in some friendly play and consider giving it a whirl in competitive.

The beasts would still get Sathy's 3d6 though, yes? But, yeah, you could always split too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/28 00:58:46


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Thor665's battle reports DE vs. assorted armies.
Splintermind: The Dark Eldar Podcast It's a podcast, about Dark Eldar.
Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665 is actually a Dark Eldar god, manifested into electronic bytes and presented here on dakkadakka to bring pain and destruction to all lesser races. Read his tactica, read his forums posts, and when he deigns to critique or advise you directly, bookmark it and pay attention.
 
   
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Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Thor I am sorry, I am a dabler in dakkadakka and I am not very good with names. Sorry if you are a good DE player, you should have been mentioned.

Ketara has struck gold, this is a good strategy. He could add:

"Archon w. Blaster 75 points (42,85 points on a point per BS hit statestic.)"

While he is an expensive unit his blaster will boost the gunline enormusly.

I am going to bed now, sorry for all the rambeling. I will some time tomorrow do a point per spliter shot up to diferent ranged and moved vs non moved if I can press it into the schedual. It depends a bit on how some meetings at the universaty goes. :-)

   
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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Yes - on a combined unit assault, the unit assaults at the speed of the slowest unit (Baron Sathonyx), the highest of 3D6.

   
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Venice, Florida

Niiai wrote:Thor I am sorry, I am a dabler in dakkadakka and I am not very good with names. Sorry if you are a good DE player, you should have been mentioned.

No worries, I'm actually not good at all but I fake it really well and nobody ever questions me because my beard is intimidating.

Thor665's Dark Eldar Tactica - A comprehensive guide to all things DE (Totally finished...till I update bits and pieces!)
Thor665's battle reports DE vs. assorted armies.
Splintermind: The Dark Eldar Podcast It's a podcast, about Dark Eldar.
Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665 is actually a Dark Eldar god, manifested into electronic bytes and presented here on dakkadakka to bring pain and destruction to all lesser races. Read his tactica, read his forums posts, and when he deigns to critique or advise you directly, bookmark it and pay attention.
 
   
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Thor665 wrote:
Ketara wrote:Here's the first of five general templates for Dark Eldar army construction. I may not get around to the others for a while though, got quite a lot of work to do....

Oi! Now you're just trying to make it hard for me to write up Army types in my Tactica without just sourcing you, aren't ya?


If you look into the articles section, you'll note I did a quick rundown of 5 different army types with the new codex. I mentioned when I did that I planned to do a more in depth post for each one, and that was a month or so back my dear sir.

Thor wrote:
Pretty strongly disagree about the way you're talking about assault in there. There are so many levels of assault within Kabals (from non-existent/speedbumps up to taking 3-4 Wyches/Incubi) that I think you're oversimplifying it with the commentary about massed squads and even in calling it counterstriking (I consider it attacking for defensive purposes, and I'll admit I don't have a perfect turn of phrase for it - but certainly it's more than counterstriking). I dunno, I don't consider what I field to be a mixed army of Kabal/Cult - and have always considered myself a Kabal style player, but Kabal can be and is far more varied on the assault element than I think you're implying.


I'm actually separating 'Kabal' and 'Cult' here. Since the new codex came out, no-one else has really bothered reclassifying for all the new builds that are possible. With 'Kabal' I'm referring to a much shootier type of force, with assult only being the cleanup function, so to speak. I'll probably extend the assault section and detail a bit, as I just realised I left out the Archon+retinue as a potential assault unit. I'll clean up the assault bit and break it down a bit more for you as well, see if we can come to some agreement on it.

Thor wrote:*Love* the point breakdown on the weapons. Fascinating to see because I never did that, but sort of just "felt" where the values were good. Nice to see my gut was backed by glorious math. That was an excellent idea to include and really helps strike home why certain units are advocated so much above others.


Nice to see you back on the site too old boy, hasn't been the same without you.

Niiai wrote:I agree that you should not mention pistols but it is hard to talk about blasters and not mention the jevel that is the high bs arcon. If you where to do a diferent representation witch is % of hitting with a darklight weapon the arcon will come ut ahead of the warriors per point cost. Add that to the fact that you can attach the arcon to a small trueborn squad in a venom/raider or a blaster squad of warriors in a raider it is odd that he is not included as he runs at 75 points for BS 7.


You're correct on the Archon with Blaster, he's cheap enough he should be included. I'll throw him into the mix when I amend it.

Niiai wrote:On warriors you are paying 4,5 per shot up to 12". I agree that this sods up the statistics and sutch will be confusing. What if you put up some slinter cannon attacks per range profile? One for splinter shots fiered up to 36" (moving and non moving) shots up to 24 (moving and non moving) up to 18 (moving and non moving) and up to 12 (moving and non moving.) Some of the entries that come worse out then the venom on the original scematic will get increasingly better as the distance is closed. (And no do not include guns.)


I'm not indicating that scourges are better than a mass squad of Warriors tactically necessarily, rather I was illustrating the respective points breakdowns of the heavy weapons. However, if you intend to bring in other factors, you then have to take into account 3 shardcarbines, which pump out another 9 shots each, and the fact that they are jump troops, have a 4+/6+ save, and can deep strike. Oh, and the warriors objective holding capacities.

It really becomes quite difficult to quantify whether Y is better than X at this level, and its kind of beyond the scope of the article to begin with. Considering this a guide to possibly help some newbies along, probably best not to confuse them too much, no?

Dashofpepper wrote:
Seriously though, while I've picked up flack for doing it because it takes away the beasts 12" charge...he doesn't *have* to stay with them.


No, it was a nice combo you came up with there Dash. I've got a list of six or seven of them I've picked up from various people across the internet, those little tips that make you nod to yourself and think, 'Nice'.

Man! Personal stock drops really quick on internet forums, doesn't it? I need to fire my publicist.

Isn't Bosso that '100 Games with DE' guy? I definitely need to fire my publicist.


Yeah, that's Buffo. But you might want to avoid poking that particular badger, he gets a little....loud when people disagree with him.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/28 01:18:11



 
   
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Venice, Florida

Ketara wrote:Yeah, that's Buffo. But you might want to avoid poking that particular badger, he gets a little....loud when people disagree with him.

But I'm loved by all...I'm pretty sure that's in my contract.

Yeah, I saw your article about list types and was planning to hit you up to steal parts for the Tactica. Are you planning to do all these into Articles eventually? I might just do a extremely limited analysis of army types and provide linkage to you if that's the case and you're cool with that.

Thor665's Dark Eldar Tactica - A comprehensive guide to all things DE (Totally finished...till I update bits and pieces!)
Thor665's battle reports DE vs. assorted armies.
Splintermind: The Dark Eldar Podcast It's a podcast, about Dark Eldar.
Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665 is actually a Dark Eldar god, manifested into electronic bytes and presented here on dakkadakka to bring pain and destruction to all lesser races. Read his tactica, read his forums posts, and when he deigns to critique or advise you directly, bookmark it and pay attention.
 
   
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Ryza

I'm curious why all the venoms? Aren't raiders similar in cost but get a lance, why would 2 splinters be better than a lance?

What about the razorwing, for anti-infantry alpha strike it looks interesting, what are your views on it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4qdgno-huo the perfect song for Dark Eldar

Four scholars at Oxford were making their way down the street, and happened to see a group of ladies of the evening. “What’s this?” said the first. “A jam of tarts?” “Nay,” said the second, “an essay of Trollope’s.” “Rather, a flourish of strumpets,” advanced the third. “No, gentlemen,” concluded the last. “Here we have an anthology of pros.” 
   
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Osyr wrote:I'm curious why all the venoms? Aren't raiders similar in cost but get a lance, why would 2 splinters be better than a lance?

Why is a lascannon better than a flamer?

You're comparing an apple to an orange. Venoms are awesome at killing infantry.
Dark Lances are awesome statistically okay at killing armor.

Both are useful tools.

The Razorwing invites the question of Razorwing vs. Ravager. The basic answer is you can get anti-infantry options very easily in Troops, but not anti-armor. You can get both anti-armor and anti-infantry from the heavy slots. Most players use the Troops to fill anti-infantry and allow Heavy to serve as anti-armor. You can use the Razorwing quite well, but you need to pick up the anti-armor slack somewhere else in your list. Alo, anti-infantry alpha strike is not optimal in competitive (tourney) enviroments since usually everything is starting in vehicles. Anti-armor alpha and anti-infantry beta strike works better.

Thor665's Dark Eldar Tactica - A comprehensive guide to all things DE (Totally finished...till I update bits and pieces!)
Thor665's battle reports DE vs. assorted armies.
Splintermind: The Dark Eldar Podcast It's a podcast, about Dark Eldar.
Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665 is actually a Dark Eldar god, manifested into electronic bytes and presented here on dakkadakka to bring pain and destruction to all lesser races. Read his tactica, read his forums posts, and when he deigns to critique or advise you directly, bookmark it and pay attention.
 
   
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The great state of Florida

One rules note - i think that beasts (calvary) cannot benefit from stealth.

Let the Galaxy Burn


...errata aren't rules, they are corrections of typos.
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I agree with Ravagers over all other heavy choices initially as a starting point for any list. Ravagers are just the best anti-tank platform we have for it's cost. The chances are that most metas are MECH heavy, so that pretty much seals the deal for 3xRavagers in most DE lists competitively.

Now, on an individual gaming level, Razorwings are the absolute bane of Space Wolves. I have taken Razorwings against Space Wolves thrice, and in two games I cleaned off all three Long Fang units on turn one off the board. My opponent conceded the game at the end of his turn 1 on the first game, and tried to play longer the second game, but ended up conceding as well on turn 2. I went second the third game, reserved everything, and when my Razorwings came onto the board, the same thing happened.

So if you are entering a tourney, I would probably stick with Ravagers all the way.

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Afrikan Blonde wrote:One rules note - i think that beasts (calvary) cannot benefit from stealth.

Source?

Can't find it under either their unit type description or the USR of Stealth.

Thor665's Dark Eldar Tactica - A comprehensive guide to all things DE (Totally finished...till I update bits and pieces!)
Thor665's battle reports DE vs. assorted armies.
Splintermind: The Dark Eldar Podcast It's a podcast, about Dark Eldar.
Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665 is actually a Dark Eldar god, manifested into electronic bytes and presented here on dakkadakka to bring pain and destruction to all lesser races. Read his tactica, read his forums posts, and when he deigns to critique or advise you directly, bookmark it and pay attention.
 
   
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Gothenburgish

Damn good article.
To develop ketaras breakdown of the weapons obove, the blaster archon should be added (though imo he's better of leading the countercharge) all points per weapon should also be divided by bs points (ie split by four on a bs 4 unit etc.

I'm a bit dissapointed that haywire blasters and the void lance isn't brought up...
I'd do the math if i wasn't on my iphone, but haywire blasters and void lances could be added if we also factored in % to glance and pen depending on armour values. Or just against av 12 to keep it easy.

For instamce (made up figures to sjow my point) trueborn with blasters cost "x" points per "z" glances, and "y" pens against av 12.

//Calle (who still think voidbombers has a place in the kaabal lists due to the sheer "longfangsgoaway" alpha missile barrage, followed by anti tank with twinlinked über lascannons the rest of the game...)

 
   
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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Osyr wrote:I'm curious why all the venoms? Aren't raiders similar in cost but get a lance, why would 2 splinters be better than a lance?

What about the razorwing, for anti-infantry alpha strike it looks interesting, what are your views on it?


The three most worrisome enemy opponents to Dark Eldar are Longfang/Razorspam Spacewolves, Mechanized Blood Angels, and Mechanized IG. My personal take on it:

-Longfangs are amongst the deadliest tools to face against us since they can split fire. My 2,000 list statistically kills 11 long fangs just from venom splinter cannon fire; if I deploy first, that's two units out of the way. If I deploy second, I can move on 12" and range 36" across the board and *still* alpha-strike the long fangs.

-Against Mechanized IG, those Chimeras usually have a HWT in them. Splinter cannons are important for taking out vehicle contents.

-They fill a significant hole against other threats: TWC, everything daemon, Orks, the growing popularity of horde IG (ohai 27 HWTs!)

Taking full lances across all your vehicles certainly helps *more* against fully mechanized lists than having splinter venoms, but not every opponent *is* fully meched up - and some are not meched up at all. I'm an advocate of armies capable of dealing with *every* enemy that can take the field against you, and a kabal without the ability to deal with non-mechanized armies doesn't qualify.






@African Blonde: Not true. It will be worth your while to consult the rulebook.

   
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Thor665 wrote:
Ketara wrote:Yeah, that's Buffo. But you might want to avoid poking that particular badger, he gets a little....loud when people disagree with him.

But I'm loved by all...I'm pretty sure that's in my contract.

Yeah, I saw your article about list types and was planning to hit you up to steal parts for the Tactica. Are you planning to do all these into Articles eventually? I might just do a extremely limited analysis of army types and provide linkage to you if that's the case and you're cool with that.


I am planning on slowly knocking all 5 of those army types up into detailed templates. So yeah, feel free to link.

Dashofpepper wrote:Great guide Ketara!

I recently switched to a wych cult (which I'm sure will get an archetype article from you soon). For the reader, culminating his advice into a sample army 2,000 point list:

Darklight Storm:

HQ: Baron Sathonyx
HQ: Haemonculi with Shattershard and Crucible of Malediction

Troop1: 5x Warriors with one Blaster in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Troop2: 5x Warriors with one Blaster in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Troop3: 5x Warriors with one Blaster in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Troop4: 5x Warriors with one Blaster in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Troop5: 5x Warriors with one Blaster in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Troop6: 9x Wyches with Haywire Grenades, 1x Hydra Gauntlet in a Raider with a Dark Lance and Flickerfield

Elite1: 4x Trueborn with 4x Blasters in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Elite2: 4x Trueborn with 4x Blasters in a Dual Splintercannon Venom
Elite3: 3x Trueborn with 3x Blasters in a Dual Splintercannon Venom

Fast Attack1: 3x Beastmasters, 5x Khymerae, 4x Razorwing Flocks

Heavy Support1: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances and a Flickerfield
Heavy Support2: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances and a Flickerfield
Heavy Support3: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances and a Flickerfield

Tactical Analysis:
The advice I give people regarding kabal armies tends to aim at this kind of archetype, and I see its use becoming more prevalent.

1. A kabal is heavily vested in its ability to shut down enemy firepower to preserve itself - getting the "Alpha Strike" is critical. Having Baron Sathonyx along to grant +1 to your roll to go first is an asset without equal in this regard.

2. The wyches provide a solid close combat unit, and the haemonculi gives them a pain token from the start for Feel No Pain to extend their survivability. I consider them a mandatory unit in a TAC army because of the haywire grenades - they are the only answer to Monoliths and Blessed Hull landraiders; while also being a powerful tool against any other vehicles.

3. Baron Sathonyx runs with the beast unit to give them +1 cover to extend their survivability. He also grants them offensive and defensive grenades, letting them assault at their normal initiative through cover. I juggle between 5x Khmerae and 9-10 Khymerae (at the cost of a trueborn or two and wargear). The unit has flexiiblity - the Razorwing rending can penetrate rear armour, khymerae can glance it, and against infantry, they can use the Baron to pile in and generally strike first, or separate to get a 12" assault.

4. This army has enough Darklight weaponry to literally cover the battlefield in it - if 40k happened in realtime, there would literally be a storm of darklight weaponry streaming across the battlefield - thus the name 'Darklight Storm." While it doesn't guarantee a vehicle-less enemy army in one turn, Ketara has outlined the spirit of it; a shaken enemy vehicle means that a DE vehicle will likely survive as a result.

5. Just as important is the prevalence of splinter weaponry amongst the venoms and warriors. Against Spacewolves, two squads of longfangs will statistically fall to splinter cannons....BEFORE darklight weaponry even opens fire. Dealing with the infantry that spill out of a wrecked or exploded transport is important - and depending on their contents, can be just as important as neutralizing the vehicle itself.

This is my vision of the perfected kabal taking the field. It isn't the only working kabal theme, but it is the one that I've tailored to what I consider to be the height of competitive possibility, and encouraged others to try continuously. I've since returned to my roots as a Wych Cult player, but this army in the hands of a capable player is literally unparalleled on the field in its ability to inspire terror in your feeble enemies.


Hey Dash, would you mind if I included a slightly cut down version of that post as an example army list when I turn this into an article? It'll be sourced to you in Quote tags of course. It just saves me the the bother of having to do one.


 
   
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MD. Baltimore Area

Some thing you might want to consider adding in the section on splinter canons is their ability to move shoot.

A Venom can move 12" and fire 12 shots

5.417 pts per shot while on the move


the two trueborn in the venom can move 6" and fire 8 shots, or move 12" hop out of the venom and fire 8 shots.

6 pts per shot while on the move.

ect...


Since the basic tactic seems to be a shoot on the move while staying out of range, it might be a good idea to incorporate that into the price comparison.

40k: 2500 pts. All Built, Mostly Painted Pics: 1 -- 2 -- 3
BFG: 1500 pts. Mostly built, half painted Pics: 1
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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

That's fine Ketara.

When your wych cult template comes out, I'll probably post there too.

   
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Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Alabama

I'm going to second Jag here: I would really like to see haywire blasters thrown into the mix. They are great for ranged AT alpha strike based armies.

Granted, there are only 2 units that can take it, scourges and talos. I do not take taloi, but the scourges have earned their keep on more than 1 occasion. The ability to hit something with a haywire grenade on turn 1, imho, negates the less fire power for the same points against other squads. I typically assign 1 scourge squad to a tank and ignore that tank with the remainder of the army, knowing that almost every round, it's not shooting at me. Cover really isn't that hard to come by since wings can't be targeted. They also bring 9 shardcarbine shots.

By the math, 2 haywire blasters will glance more often than 3 blasters or dark lances agaisnt AV12.


   
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Bergen

Hmmm...that is a compelling arument for the haywire blaster.

I personaly would think haywire blasters would be better on a tallos. Then you can stunn it and advance. A scourge with 2 blasters is so mutch deadly vs everything else also if you ever meet non-mechanised. It seems odd to throw off the shardcarbine shots midgame. If you have a talos you can run closer vs other MC's if they do not have mech.

I think blasters have an argument more long term as you can't stunn things forever as things start to die on both sides.

   
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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Haywire blasters may statistically cause more glances, but I find that irrelevant.

Glancing is a potential "good enough" solution to get you by another turn until you penetrate/wreck/explode! something. While haywire blasters give you more "potential" to shake/stun something for a turn, they don't add more killing power than a lance or a blaster does.

The only time that haywire blasters should really be considered for a ranged AT alpha strike army is at 2500ish points, when your force org is already full of killy stuff, and you've got points to spare - and you start considering haywire blasters. But even then, they're probably not going to get chosen because you could fit in more beastmasters.

   
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Whorelando, FL

Razorwings with shatterfield missiles seem to be getting my attention a lot lately as I've been struggling vs. horde armies, especially orks. 3 venoms, 2 trueborn units with 3 blasters/ 2 cannons (my main anti-infantry core) can't seem to get it done over the course of at least 5 turns. They simply run out of gas. Having large blasts will keep the opponent honest with spacing etc. if they know that there is a possibility of blasts being lobbed at them. Once GW makes a Razorwing, I will try them out. Razorwings have the possibility to do way more wounds per turn than Venoms. While I would most definitely have Venoms in my army, the ability to saturate a unit with 4 5" blast markers with a Str7 reroll wounds template seems fairly potent for the points spent. Versus a more meched army the shatterfield missiles essentially become autocannons against armor. I think targeting transports with the darklight weapons and popping them will set the table for a nice missile barrage since the opponents units will be bunched up. It's something worth considering.

Beasts are cool and Beasts are very points efficient, but I've seen them suffer from two things: Leadership and Ruins. Leadership is a problem as the beast masters can sometimes be quickly be eliminated with volume of fire. Once that happens they usually will be useless. Weaken Resolve, Fear of Darkness are huge counters that can be beast unit busters. Lastly, Calvary hate ruins as any smart player will deploy as much of his forces in the upper levels until the beasts have been neutralized. These are all things I have experienced at one point or another in my games. Again, something worth considering.

   
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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

CaptKaruthors wrote:
Beasts are cool and Beasts are very points efficient, but I've seen them suffer from two things: Leadership and Ruins. Leadership is a problem as the beast masters can sometimes be quickly be eliminated with volume of fire. Once that happens they usually will be useless. Weaken Resolve, Fear of Darkness are huge counters that can be beast unit busters. Lastly, Calvary hate ruins as any smart player will deploy as much of his forces in the upper levels until the beasts have been neutralized. These are all things I have experienced at one point or another in my games. Again, something worth considering.



Baron Sathonyx is worth taking simply for the +1 to go first in a kabal army. In my mind, he's literally an auto-include. Pairing him with the beasts has the benefit of making them LD10, and generally turning their 4+ cover into 3+ cover. They're incredibly resistant to random fire with a combination of 3+ cover saves, 4+ invulnerable saves, and 5 wound models using 3+ cover to fend off casualties of anything STR5 or below. Opponents who *know* what kind of saves and statlines they have generally don't shoot them, yet every game I pray that my opponents *will* shoot them for one simple reason:

Virtually everything that can hurt a beast unit at range can hurt a venom or a raider worse. Opponents that are willing to drop firepower into a beast unit instead of directing it at vehicles are off to a bad start.

Units deploying into upper levels of ruins are *also* a blessing. Beasts serve as a great tie-up unit and a discouraging measure to keep things away from your softer targets - deployed trueborn for example. Beasts with defensive grenades are even more discouraging of a target. I don't see beasts as a dedicated assault unit that speeds across the board pell-mell to jump into combat - that's an unsupported assault unit in a kabal army, which is a mistake in any army. They're a midfield unit for a kabal army - discouraging the enemy from coming near your glass cannon, and punishing them if they do. I say that units deployed in upper levels of ruins are a blessing because:

1. They're either a dedicated fire support unit that can wreck havoc on your vehicles, in which case you should be shooting it off the board before the beasts could even get halfway across the board even if they *could* get up into the ruins...

2. They're not a dedicated fire support unit, in which case you can ignore them because you outrange them while dealing with more threatening parts of the enemy army. You don't have to kill something to neutralize it - a prevalent theme in Dark Eldar. There are exceptions (like 10 marines with a missile launcher) that don't fit into either category, but the existence of these kind of massive point sinks for little utility against YOUR army should be a telling weakness for you to exploit.

And a final two points for you in particular:

1. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Or an Ork. Why only 3 venoms? Why not five? Or six? Or nine?

2. Against a horde army, distance and time are your friends. If you only have 3 venoms, I presume you have some raiders in there too? Moving an empty raider (or two) flat out and plopping it/them down 1" away from the advancing horde stops their progress. Either they go sideways that turn or they stop to fight it - and it has 4+ cover and needs 6+ to be hit...and might even have a 5+ invulnerable save against close combat attacks. Dark Eldar mobility means that WE decide who goes where on the battlefield. Want to screw a battlewagon army? Flat out a raider and plop it sideways 1" away from the middle of the battlewagon wall. You dodge on a 3+. You have a 66% chance of stopping the advance for 60 points before we even get to whether they manage to explode you to keep going or not.

   
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Alabama

Dashofpepper wrote:
Glancing is a potential "good enough" solution to get you by another turn until you penetrate/wreck/explode! something. While haywire blasters give you more "potential" to shake/stun something for a turn, they don't add more killing power than a lance or a blaster does.


I agree with that, and it's even my argument "for" Haywire Blasters. They aren't going to kill much, if anything. The thing that Haywire Blasters give you is a consistently better chance, than a ravager even, to shut down an enemy tank on turn 1, and then every turn after that. Turn 1 is huge for DE as you well know. I play almost the exact list posted earlier with a couple of minor tweaks at 2k. I replace 1 warrior squad and the hydra gauntlet for 1 squad of 5x scourges. They aren't the best thing in the world for AT since they can't "kill" it, and they aren't wonderful at killing troops, but in that list, they don't have to be great at killing troops. There are venoms for that. It doesn't have to kill the tank either to make it ineffective, as you've said before. With target priority working on the basis of shoot it, it can't shoot any more, move on, glancing is all that's needed. Granted, I lose a scoring unit in my list, but it prevents something else that's more expensive than my 130 point scourge squad from killing anything else.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/03/29 16:56:21


 
   
 
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