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Hey folks!

To my understanding, whether an IC is attached to a unit is determined by its beginning and ending position in relation to a unit during the movement phase, with the caveat that if the IC is within coherency with multiple units, you declare which they are attached to.

Scenario: I have a jump infantry IC in coherency with a non-jump infantry unit. The IC leaves the unit (leaves coherency) and moves somewhere else. The unit (still during the movement phase) later moves up within 2" of the IC, and he's now in coherency with them - having left the unit and rejoined them in the same turn.

Anything illegal with that?

well because he is a part of that unit when the turn starts the whole unit must move at the same time. after the whole unit has moved (including the IC) then it checks whether or not he is a part of that unit. f he is within 2" he is still part of the unit. if he isn't then he is now by himself. so technically that situation you described would never happen.

The rules seem to indicate that there are only 4 ways for an IC to join a unit.
One is for the IC to be joined to the unit before the unit deploys.
OR the IC can join a unit by moving into coherency with it.
OR the IC can embark into a transport that the unit is already embarked in.
OR the unit can embark into a transport that the IC is already embarked in.

This last one seems to be the only way that a unit can move to join an IC.
In the other cases the IC has to move into coherency with the unit.

I don't think that, other than the transport option, that a unit can join with an IC by moving into coherency with it.

I would say that yes, that would be illegal. I was always under the impression that during the movement phase---when you select your Terminators/Vulkan---they are one unit. During their movement---you can have Vulkan break coherency (An exception is made per the rules for this to happen)----in which case at the end of movement they become two units.

I don't believe you can select the character---move him----move a random rhino---then come back and move the terminators he was formerly attached to. Which would disallow the scenario.

People use this trick to charge enemy units by gaming a couple extra inches. It's been discussed before ad nauseum. I'm surprised it took you this long to figure it out.

time wizard wrote:this last one seems to be the only way that a unit can move to join an IC.
In the other cases the IC has to move into coherency with the unit.

While the rules are largely written from the perspective of the IC doing the moving, ultimately the check as to whether or not he is joined to the unit simply relies on whether or not he is within 2" of them. So practically it makes no difference which of them does the actual moving.

However, as was pointed out, the entire unit moves at the same time. At the time you started moving the IC he was a part of the unit. So you would have to perform the whole unit's movement at the same time, only checking if the IC has joined or left them after that movement is finished.

It is therefore impossible to leave the unit and then rejoin it in the same movement phase.

Dash, I take it you're looking at Baron Sathonyx, leaving a BeastMaster crew to assault an enemy with them following right behind in the same phase, huh?

I think the end result is a multiple combat, ending with the Baron having to Consolidate on his own and the BMs on their own. Not choice, for that return round of shooting, is it?

Guys, have *I* called that right?

It is unclear.

The principle rule for this situation on pg. 48 states:

"In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase."

The ambiguity comes from the "end of their movement phase" statement.

The rule seems to be trying to say that after the IC has completed their move it joins a friendly unit that is within 2".

However, IC's do not have a movement phase, so this interpretation does not strictly make sense.

While "the end of their movement phase" could refer to the end of the player's movement phase, there is no indication from the context of the sentence or the larger section of the rules that the possessive "their" should refer to the player, which is the only thing that actually has a movement phase.

I think the first interpretation is most correct, but reasonable people could disagree.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Brothererekose since Dash is a dark eldar player it is likey that the Baron Sathonyx and BeastMaster interaction was what lead to this question.

Manimal wrote:However, IC's do not have a movement phase, so this interpretation does not strictly make sense.

The IC's movement phase is the movement phase in which the IC moves.


But it makes no difference which interpretation you choose... the IC can not move away from the unit and then rejoin it in the same phase. It's simply not possible following the mechanics of moving a unit.

Manimal wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Brothererekose since Dash is a dark eldar player it is likey that the Baron Sathonyx and BeastMaster interaction was what lead to this question.

Um. Yeah. ... we're all on the same page there.

While I agree with the result of your take on the rule insaniak, I am not so sure that it is that clear cut.

If an IC leaves a unit the unit does not automatically count as having moved. This seems to imply that there is something different about an IC in a unit.

The following two rules are of interest:

1. "While an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. ..."

2. "An independent character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it"

For these rules to be consistent with each other, the IC must not be part of the unit when you intend to leave coherency, else you would have to follow rule 1 and you would have to obey the usual coherency rules.

So, one possible interpretation of this interaction is that as soon as you intend to leave coherency the IC becomes a separate unit and so can be moved without selecting the unit it was joined to as moving. The rule stating the unit does not count as moving when the IC leaves supports this interpretation.

I do not think that this is the correct interpretation, but I think it is one that a reasonable person could have.

So I hide Shrike at the tail end of my squad of 10 infiltrated Terminators to deny him being part of a turn 1 counter assault if I go 2nd. During my movement phase I break him off move 12 forward so he is now in front of terminators than move them 6 up forcing him back into coherency, running than assaulting. This is legal or no?

Manimal wrote:for these rules to be consistent with each other, the IC must not be part of the unit when you intend to leave coherency, else you would have to follow rule 1 and you would have to obey the usual coherency rules.

The usual coherency rule require models to be in coherency after the unit has finished moving, not as they move. So there is no conflict in the rules here... the IC is moved away as a part of the unit's movement, and if he winds up out of coherency he has left the unit.

You can indeed move just the IC and have the unit he left not count as having moved... But in that case, you have chosen to not move the unit, so you can't go back and choose to move them later on, as the movement phase rules specifically forbid you from finishing with a unit, and then coming back and changing your mind.

I would very strongly disagree that the alternite interpretation is a reasonable one, precisely because it allows the 'tactic' being asked about... which is nothing more than trying to find a loophole to get around the rule requiring a unit to move at the speed of its slowest member. There is no such loophole here.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

LegendJRG wrote:So I hide Shrike at the tail end of my squad of 10 infiltrated Terminators to deny him being part of a turn 1 counter assault if I go 2nd. During my movement phase I break him off move 12 forward so he is now in front of terminators than move them 6 up forcing him back into coherency, running than assaulting. This is legal or no?

No.

At the point at which the unit moves, Shrike is a part of the unit. The unit has to move at the speed of its slowest member.

Isaniak has this spot on, it comes up once every 2 or 3 months trying to catapult models from units of having Farseers leave Harliquins to gain Move Through Cover, then rejoin them at the end of the phase.

But when it comes down to it you CANNOT move the IC separately, it is not a unit when it is part of a unit. You choose the Unit the IC is in to move and move all the models in that unit as far as you want to. At the end of that movement you check coherency, if the IC is within 2" of the unit he's still in, if he is not then he left and is now a separate unit all of his own.

I think the confusion always stems from people thinking IC's are separate units just standing near other ones, but they are not.

The IC's movement phase is the movement phase in which the IC moves.

You have given a likely definition of what the IC's movement phase means, but the end of the their (the IC's) movement phase might be referring to when the IC has completed its move not the end of the player's movement phase.

Since there is no IC's movement phase defined by the rules we have to decide what this means.


The point about only checking for coherency after moving is excellent though. That clearly makes satisfying rules 1 and 2 possible without having to make the IC its own unit before moving.

So it does seem clear that if a jump infantry IC is attached to an infantry squad it can move up to 6" and if at the end if this move, including the movement of the squad it is attached to, (or the end of the player's movement phase depending on what the IC's movement phase means), it will either be out of coherency with the unit and be separate unit or be within coherency and never have left the unit.

Another agreement with insaniak.

If you were able to move ICs like this, you could get around basically any kind of movement restriction with an IC who has a different type of movement than the squad he is in.

For example if I have Ghazzy stuck in with a squad of 30 Boys; I roll "Slow and Purposeful" for Ghazzy and I only get a 3. I move him 3" away from the Boys. Now, he's not in coherency with the Boys anymore. Now I move the Boys their full 6", and I bring them within 2" of Ghazzy. Oh! They're back in coherency!

Yeah no. Can't do that.

Manimal wrote:So it does seem clear that if a jump infantry IC is attached to an infantry squad it can move up to 6" and if at the end if this move, including the movement of the squad it is attached to, (or the end of the player's movement phase depending on what the IC's movement phase means), it will either be out of coherency with the unit and be separate unit or be within coherency and never have left the unit.

Exactly.

Although it's worth mentioning that a lot of people do allow the IC to use their own movement if they are specifically leaving the unit, despite the fact that the rules technically don't allow it.

insaniak wrote:

Manimal wrote:So it does seem clear that if a jump infantry IC is attached to an infantry squad it can move up to 6" and if at the end if this move, including the movement of the squad it is attached to, (or the end of the player's movement phase depending on what the IC's movement phase means), it will either be out of coherency with the unit and be separate unit or be within coherency and never have left the unit.

Exactly.

Although it's worth mentioning that a lot of people do allow the IC to use their own movement if they are specifically leaving the unit, despite the fact that the rules technically don't allow it.

Doh, I can think to instances where I did that. I was going with;

Activation of the unit includes the character
Break coherency if you wish with the character's movement
The unit he was attached to do moves/sits/whatever


I don't have the rulebook with me----but does it state that if the character leaves the unit it does not count as moving?

AgeOfEgos wrote:but does it state that if the character leaves the unit it does not count as moving?

The unit does not count as moving if an IC leaves it, but the unit itself does not move. (page 48 main rules, bullet 5)

kirsanth wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:but does it state that if the character leaves the unit it does not count as moving?

The unit does not count as moving if an IC leaves it, but the unit itself does not move. (page 48 main rules, bullet 5)

So..if the unit doesn't move is the IC limited to their movement? That's the reason I asked---seemed a bit strange.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:but does it state that if the character leaves the unit it does not count as moving?

The unit does not count as moving if an IC leaves it, but the unit itself does not move. (page 48 main rules, bullet 5)

So..if the unit doesn't move is the IC limited to their movement? That's the reason I asked---seemed a bit strange.

Yes, as the IC is still part of the unit until it completes the move.

Yes - this was aimed at Baron Sathonyx. Sometimes I'll have him at the back of a unit of beasts, then have him detach, move 12" forward on his own, and the unit then later moves up into coherency with him - with him now at the front instead of the back.

I generally *do* leave him at the very back of a unit - I don't really want him in close combat, so if he's attached and the beasts are about to charge, the baron is 7-10" away from the charge so that he can't get in - I want him for assault grenades and +1 cover, not to get in and get whacked. I always fail his first shadowfield save. ><

Dashofpepper wrote:Yes - this was aimed at Baron Sathonyx. Sometimes I'll have him at the back of a unit of beasts, then have him detach, move 12" forward on his own, and the unit then later moves up into coherency with him - with him now at the front instead of the back.

I generally *do* leave him at the very back of a unit - I don't really want him in close combat, so if he's attached and the beasts are about to charge, the baron is 7-10" away from the charge so that he can't get in - I want him for assault grenades and +1 cover, not to get in and get whacked. I always fail his first shadowfield save. ><

Yeah that's illegal, you should probably stop doing that.