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ERJAK 809431 11543961 wrote:

Do you guys all live in like...the coldest parts of Siberia? Or do you just not realize that you don't HAVE to buy from GW's website?

Every time a new boxset comes out, people whine about scalpers, and every time I go to one of the half dozen places that sell GW near me and could build a decent size condo out of the number of boxes sitting around. Hell, I got TWO Indomitus boxes a week after launch with no problem at all. Can't GIVE those models away, these days.

The ONLY exception was Cursed City and that had just about everything going against it you could possibly have.

You don't have to live in siberia for that. You would be suprise how bad places like south america, eastern europ or australia are treated by companies like GW or WotC. And I don't know enough people to speak for the entire continent, but in SA the hobby merch isn't as easy to get as in UK or US. And yes when people here couldn't get their hands on Indomitus, seeing people from some countries post stores full of it and not bought was not making people happy.


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PenitentJake wrote:

Karol wrote:

A full re-roll on 3 fire prisms which do 12 dmg per shot and can draw LoS through each other is like having Oath of the moment active for 3 targets.

Not going to say this isn't OP- it may be. But this isn't what's actually allowed by the rules.

A Prism with linked fire doesn't do 12 damage; it has two shots which each do 6 damage. ONE of those hits can be rerolled. ONE of those wounds can be rerolled.
Then the next Prism gets to fire, and it gets ONE hit reroll and ONE wound roll. It also doesn't have to choose the same target as the first Prism. This can continue one more time if you brought a third Prism- again a single hit reroll and a single wound reroll, with the option of choosing a different target(s)

Oath of Moment, on the other hand, allows EVERY hit roll and EVERY wound roll a unit makes to be rerolled but doesn't allow target switching.

So in truth, a prism cannon's linked fire ability has little in common with Oath of Moment, other than the word "reroll" - though it may still be OP, which I think is your main point anyway.

Both can be re-rolled. you re-roll one to hit dice and to wound dice from the detachment rule, and you re-roll one die for hit and wound from the prisms own rule. So you are re-rolls 2 dice to hit and 2 to wound. the main gun happens to be shoting twice.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea it will still struggle against invulnerable saves and smoke cuts it's efficiency in half. It has no Heavy or DW to pull it through and Guide is quite hard to put on a distant target.

which is great if the vehicle in case has an inv save. But Land raiders or rhinos do not. Neither do dreadnoughts. So is prism has like a what 80% chance to kill a vehicle per turn? And that is just one tank, I have to shot a war walker over 100 times to kill one and that is assuming the vehicle not returning fire and not getting healed. All the eldar index rules are classic eldar type of rules. My dudes get their smite removed and get str 6 thunder hammers, meanwhile eldar get to spam MW with weapon platforms just by virtue of standing next to a farseer.

Karol wrote:

Both can be re-rolled. you re-roll one to hit dice and to wound dice from the detachment rule, and you re-roll one die for hit and wound from the prisms own rule. So you are re-rolls 2 dice to hit and 2 to wound. the main gun happens to be shoting twice.

Yeah, that's my mistake- at the time I wrote the response to your post, I hadn't seen the Fire Prism data sheet- just the Prism Cannon entry in the Warcom article. Someone else corrected me on that already.

I stand corrected.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Might want to recheck rules. Every strand dice won't be 6. Un'ess you use loaded dice and then you don't need eldar rules

Just need 12 Farseers. With Eldrad, Footseer and Bikeseer we're 7/12 of the way there.

12 farseer? That's lots of redundancy. After all 1 or 12 only 1 6 from farseer spell.

Does bikeseer even have same spell but worded so it would give another?

Presumably your opponent has brought a Vindicare and several hundred points of halfling snipers to deal with your Eldar-wizards. Redundancy is a necessity!

Aren't eldar supposed to see future? Dodge bullets!

But yeah wish there was bit less exaggeration on # of 6s claims. If one believes dakkadakka eldar can literally use 6 for everything as every datasheet too strong as "6 from strands". Umm..yea you can use 1 reliably per turn. Not for 4-5 datasheets.

Karol wrote:
which is great if the vehicle in case has an inv save. But Land raiders or rhinos do not. Neither do dreadnoughts. So is prism has like a what 80% chance to kill a vehicle per turn? And that is just one tank, I have to shot a war walker over 100 times to kill one and that is assuming the vehicle not returning fire and not getting healed. All the eldar index rules are classic eldar type of rules. My dudes get their smite removed and get str 6 thunder hammers, meanwhile eldar get to spam MW with weapon platforms just by virtue of standing next to a farseer.

A Landraider has W16 and 2+. Both the Ballistus and the Screamer Killer have a 2+, which will leave them on 5+ in cover. That takes it from 70 to 80% down to 10%.

EDIT Sorry typo. Not 10%. Don't have the screen in front of me atm though.

EDIT : 28%

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Presumably your opponent has brought a Vindicare and several hundred points of halfling snipers to deal with your Eldar-wizards. Redundancy is a necessity!

But marines can't take halfline snipers. and if we are talking about IG then why would they invest points in to those instead of something like Lemman Russes or Karskin. A lot more untily and fire power. And even with a vindicar, he still can't ignore LoS or the phoenix thing. So at worse he has to be killed twice.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:


A Landraider has W16 and 2+. Both the Ballistus and the Screamer Killer have a 2+, which will leave them on 5+ in cover. That takes it from 70 to 80% down to 10%.

Yes. In a single turn they can criple an entire army that takes two land raiders with 3 units that cost less points, even prior puting stuff in to land raiders.

By the way, because I don't remember the rules on it, are we allowed to talk about army point costs here, are is it a ban, like on some other forums. I mean the unpublished index ones?

Karol wrote:
But marines can't take halfline snipers. and if we are talking about IG then why would they invest points in to those instead of something like Lemman Russes or Karskin. A lot more untily and fire power. And even with a vindicar, he still can't ignore LoS or the phoenix thing. So at worse he has to be killed twice.

Depends on points. I can see 5-10 ratlings JSJing up and down ruins for +1ap being viable at certain costs. With the right terrain they are immune to non-overwatch, non-indirect return fire.

tneva82 wrote:
Aren't eldar supposed to see future? Dodge bullets!

But yeah wish there was bit less exaggeration on # of 6s claims. If one believes dakkadakka eldar can literally use 6 for everything as every datasheet too strong as "6 from strands". Umm..yea you can use 1 reliably per turn. Not for 4-5 datasheets.

How much is it worth to get a 100% MW spamer, just because you get a 6, even if you don't roll any on 12 dice? No other army has a similar rules, power wise. And in eldar case it is also joined to an incredibly fast moving army, which ignores terrain to move and is extremly hard to charge thanks to phantasm. Stuff like Warp spiders can do missions objectives and are super good, even if they don't fire a single shot. And they cost less then a terminator. Only a terminator doesn't fly half the table each turn.

Karol wrote:

Yes. In a single turn they can criple an entire army that takes two land raiders with 3 units that cost less points, even prior puting stuff in to land raiders.

are points out yet?


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Karol wrote:

But marines can't take halfline snipers.

scouts
eliminators
vindicaire

No. He's karol.

tneva82 wrote:
No. He's karol.

oh, i really should look at who's commenting before replying

Karol wrote:

Yes. In a single turn they can criple an entire army that takes two land raiders with 3 units that cost less points, even prior puting stuff in to land raiders.

By the way, because I don't remember the rules on it, are we allowed to talk about army point costs here, are is it a ban, like on some other forums. I mean the unpublished index ones?

Cripple an entire army? Maybe don't take all vehicles and use reserves...

Do you HAVE points? Or like stuff that someone might have made up?

Sternguard limited to only Heavy Bolters for Heavy Weapons. . . May the asinine culling of options continue.

I think its a reasonable observation that in an edition that's meant to be less lethal, the Fire Prism looks bonkers.

I mean someone can check my maths - but 8/9*8/9*35/36*35/36 means you have around a 74.68% chance of one-shotting a rival Fire Prism. And doing more damage if we assume the underslung gun contributes anything. Or put another way - around 3 "goes" out of 4, it works 100% of the time.

I don't know what a Fire Prism's points are - but if you are "expecting" a 75%~ return - which "most of the time" is a 100% return, that's 9th edition level lethality.

"Its fine, just go MSU" is a reasonable response - and typically how I play. But it doesn't change the above.

Tyel wrote:
I think its a reasonable observation that in an edition that's meant to be less lethal, the Fire Prism looks bonkers.

I mean someone can check my maths - but 8/9*8/9*35/36*35/36 means you have around a 74.68% chance of one-shotting a rival Fire Prism. And doing more damage if we assume the underslung gun contributes anything. Or put another way - around 3 "goes" out of 4, it works 100% of the time.

I don't know what a Fire Prism's points are - but if you are "expecting" a 75%~ return - which "most of the time" is a 100% return, that's 9th edition level lethality.

"Its fine, just go MSU" is a reasonable response - and typically how I play. But it doesn't change the above.

I wouldn't bother, the Eldar players will show up and explain to you why you're wrong and how Eldar are actually the hardest army to play in every edition LOL

To break the mold I do think Fire Prisms are a bit nuts but not as bad as Support Weapons

EviscerationPlague wrote:


I wouldn't bother, the Eldar players will show up and explain to you why you're wrong and how Eldar are actually the hardest army to play in every edition LOL

Bad experience against Eldar, maybe?

Eldar fans have many very legitimate complaints. From progressive nerfing, to wildly different army strongpoints through the editions, to the fact that they're often still playing with sculpts from 1991 available only in resin.

Though, to be fair, some of those 1991 sculpts are still better than some current releases.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sternguard limited to only Heavy Bolters for Heavy Weapons. . . May the asinine culling of options continue.

Not to “wait and see” you, as precedent goes both ways from the indominus box, but let’s keep a spark of hope alive that once we get the full codex a/o full kits, we might have more a/o legacy options. Assault intercessors and BGVs got more then just the ETB kits and get started rules allowed.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sternguard limited to only Heavy Bolters for Heavy Weapons. . . May the asinine culling of options continue.

Not to “wait and see” you, as precedent goes both ways from the indominus box, but let’s keep a spark of hope alive that once we get the full codex a/o full kits, we might have more a/o legacy options. Assault intercessors and BGVs got more then just the ETB kits and get started rules allowed.

There are no sparks of hope for GW.

My spark of hope is that someone else makes a good game that gains popularity where we can use our 40k armies in the ways that we want to.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sternguard limited to only Heavy Bolters for Heavy Weapons. . . May the asinine culling of options continue.

I'm fairly sure it's just the Levi datasheet. Hopefully they're not restricted in that manner.


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Tyel wrote:
I think its a reasonable observation that in an edition that's meant to be less lethal, the Fire Prism looks bonkers.

I mean someone can check my maths - but 8/9*8/9*35/36*35/36 means you have around a 74.68% chance of one-shotting a rival Fire Prism. And doing more damage if we assume the underslung gun contributes anything. Or put another way - around 3 "goes" out of 4, it works 100% of the time.

I don't know what a Fire Prism's points are - but if you are "expecting" a 75%~ return - which "most of the time" is a 100% return, that's 9th edition level lethality.

"Its fine, just go MSU" is a reasonable response - and typically how I play. But it doesn't change the above.

I think it fits the 'glass cannon' nature of elves, but I would expect it to be back to at least 200 points if not 250+. We'll find out real quick if it's busted.

At the same time a Ballistus with Oath on a Prism takes it down most of the way and just the Lascannons on a Landraider takes it out.

 Insectum7 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:


I wouldn't bother, the Eldar players will show up and explain to you why you're wrong and how Eldar are actually the hardest army to play in every edition LOL

Bad experience against Eldar, maybe?

Eldar fans have many very legitimate complaints. From progressive nerfing, to wildly different army strongpoints through the editions, to the fact that they're often still playing with sculpts from 1991 available only in resin.

Though, to be fair, some of those 1991 sculpts are still better than some current releases.

Sculpts aren't a legitimate complaint since 3rd party options exist.

And no, Eldar players just are that entitled.

The army specific rules have been so incredibly uneven thus far. It's not giving me the greatest confidence in the rollout of 10th but...the devil is in the details. I expect the first few months to be nuts until adjustments are made. It seems to be their new method...which is better than back in the dark days when you could be stuck with a bad codex for literally years

EviscerationPlague wrote:

And no, Marine players just are that entitled.

FTFY.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sternguard limited to only Heavy Bolters for Heavy Weapons. . . May the asinine culling of options continue.

I'm fairly sure it's just the Levi datasheet. Hopefully they're not restricted in that manner.

It's sorta moot in light of the combi-weapon changes.

Not a fan of what they did to combi weapons personally. There a a spectrum of bare-bones to bloat, and we all have our line of what should be culled for simplicity and game play, or what is vital to the game and should be kept.

Did we need 3 different versions of bolter for each individual marine unit, with no overlap? Not in my humble opinion.

Is it worth the space on the datasheet and effort to get the right bits for combis? Yes.

YMMV.

Although if the keep the legacy options from the old SG kit, that would allow special weapons (and the HF) on the squad. With combis their own unified thing, there would be a reason to take plain specials again.

But one thing we need to make sure we keep is the prohibition of SG sarges taking thunderhammers. /sarcasm

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I think it fits the 'glass cannon' nature of elves, but I would expect it to be back to at least 200 points if not 250+. We'll find out real quick if it's busted.

At the same time a Ballistus with Oath on a Prism takes it down most of the way and just the Lascannons on a Landraider takes it out.

Sure they can make Eldar stuff expensive - but that's just emphasising "everyone's a glasscannon".

I think the reroll detachment ability is an obvious target for a rapid nerf. It seems head and shoulders above other options (and yes, you can say this is apples and oranges, but I feel it never really is).

Do we know what happens to a unit with no melee options is stuck in CC? Is there a default punch?

For example, looking at the datasheet of the TDA captain. He starts with a SB and a relic blade. He can swap the blade for a shield. SB/shield. Looks to be a valid build. But locked in combat, does he just get to sit there and use harsh language?

Tyel wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I think it fits the 'glass cannon' nature of elves, but I would expect it to be back to at least 200 points if not 250+. We'll find out real quick if it's busted.

At the same time a Ballistus with Oath on a Prism takes it down most of the way and just the Lascannons on a Landraider takes it out.

Sure they can make Eldar stuff expensive - but that's just emphasising "everyone's a glasscannon".

I think the reroll detachment ability is an obvious target for a rapid nerf. It seems head and shoulders above other options (and yes, you can say this is apples and oranges, but I feel it never really is).

Yea Eldar will absolutely be an exceedingly consistent army with the rerolls and fate dice.

I'm still processing the missions so I'm unsure if those will help, but there does seem to be a few things. In general fixed secondaries seem really tough.

 Nevelon wrote:

But one thing we need to make sure we keep is the prohibition of SG sarges taking thunderhammers. /sarcasm

Haha. Yeah that was such a wierd one.

Does the 1cp that Leontus gains at the start of the command phase bypass the 1cp per battleround gain limit? The limit says it doesnt count cp gained at the start of the command phase. I'm undecided.