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Made in gb
Powerful Irongut




England

In the recent topic "Do you think Games Workshop should add more female miniatures to their existing 40K lines?" the subject of female Space Marines has been brought up and both sides have made credible arguements so I thought, why not simply have a poll, then we can know how many people are for it and against it?

Against:
The current fluff is against it
GW aren't particularily good with female models
Sisters of Battle is so similar anyway

For:
The fluff is very often altered (see the Jokerao)
The fluff against it seems to be very 'Deus Ex Machina excuse for no female marines'
Unlike what the against group says you wouldn't need an entire fluff overhaul to have fem-marines.
Females are still sorely under-represented in 40K, despite the existence of SoB

For me, in the words of Ascalam

"Why, exactly, would having female Space Marines destroy the integrity of the game?"

I also think that if you look through the other topic BaronIveagh really says it best on the first page

And another point, there's a whole thing going around amonst the against crowd about female marines having to look unattractive to remain in the grim-dark setting, sure they'd have to have the same armor, but look at Samus from Metroid. She (at least sometimes) fits into the grim-dark thing, she's very attractive despite being covered in armor.

I'm personally pro-Female Marines and would happily use SoB heads on some of my helmetless marines if I had any spare

Please feel free to add to the for or against reasons as I'm certain I haven't got everything.

Also I'd like to request, if your going to vote then please give a reason

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/01 01:57:51


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Thermo-Optical Tuareg






Nashville, TN

In before the "Female Space Marines!!?? BLAAAARGGGH!" hate flows!

"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

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Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

What the hell?
   
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Over the hills and far away, or am right behind you?

I can see that having female marines wouldn't mess up much with fluff and the game wont disintegrate, but, I thought that SoB were the equilivent exchange.

If I'm wrong may the emperor strike me down where I stand.

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Chicago, Illinois

dullblade35 wrote:I can see that having female marines wouldn't mess up much with fluff and the game wont disintegrate, but, I thought that SoB were the equilivent exchange.

If I'm wrong may the emperor strike me down where I stand.

your wrong. Dear Emperor strike him down
*mother gets hit instead.*
Damn it.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Sisters of Battle fit that role.

"AM are bunch of half human-half robot monkeys who keep tech working by punching it with a wrench And their tech is so sophisticated that you could never get it wrapped it out" thing a LITTLE to seriously. It also goes "Tau tech is so awesome I wish I was Tau and not some stupid Human" thing.

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Made in au
Norn Queen






While I'm all for female models, the amount of female models GW have made that aren't butch lesbians can be counted on one hand. They need better sculptors before they even consider it.

Either that or get Juan Diaz to sculpt them all.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

-Loki- wrote:While I'm all for female models, the amount of female models GW have made that aren't butch lesbians can be counted on one hand. They need better sculptors before they even consider it.

Either that or get Juan Diaz to sculpt them all.

OR someone that has actually seen a womens body.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/01 02:10:37


 
   
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Asherian Command wrote:
-Loki- wrote:While I'm all for female models, the amount of female models GW have made that aren't butch lesbians can be counted on one hand. They need better sculptors before they even consider it.

Either that or get Juan Diaz to sculpt them all.

OR someone that has actually seen a womens body.
Pshh. You think these people don't have computers?

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Huge Hierodule





Ottawa, ON

Spartans in HALO are both male and female, though their armor is less masculine and more asexual.

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Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

coolyo294 wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
-Loki- wrote:While I'm all for female models, the amount of female models GW have made that aren't butch lesbians can be counted on one hand. They need better sculptors before they even consider it.

Either that or get Juan Diaz to sculpt them all.

OR someone that has actually seen a womens body.
Pshh. You think these people don't have computers?

knowing gw they will look only at anime.......
   
Made in gb
Powerful Irongut




England

Mr Nobody wrote:Spartans in HALO are both male and female, though their armor is less masculine and more asexual.


I'm looking at one of my space marines on the desk and his (or her lol) armor doesn't look completely masculine, it is kinda asexual and wouldn't need to be changed, for example:



One problem I've found some of the against group have is when they think of femarines they think they'd be like this:



When really they'd be closer to either the first picture or this:


Grimstonefire wrote:I am feeling quite confident that by this time next year I will be holding a new CD model in my hand (07/07/10). Someone can sig that if they want.
 
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Manchester, UK

It is not exactly hard to fit female marines into the current fluff. Of course there is no way that the current 18 legions could support female geneseed stock as it is all taken from the primarchs. However, the two lost primarchs could easily be said to be female. You could even have one loyal and one traitor if you wanted.

I'm not really bothered either way, but if people really want to have female marines I say let them have them. Just don't make the armour stupidly booberiffic, that would be silly. People can get so worked up about these things. Does it really matter what gender the enemy is? They die to lasguns and battlecannons just the same.

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I just don't like the inevitable 36 DDs in a tight outfit with some apple bottom jeans and boots with da fur to go along with it.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





I'd be great to have a game universe that was more inclusive but I wouldn't count on it being done well. It'd all just be more annoying boob-cup armor and high-heeled boots.
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Manchester, UK

Tinsil wrote:I just don't like the inevitable 36 DDs in a tight outfit with some apple bottom jeans and boots with da fur to go along with it.


You could always pull WYSIWYG and say that they are not in power armour, so they only get a 6+ save.

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Powerful Irongut




England

Tinsil, did you see my post about how the female marines actually would look in comparison to the boob-marines?

Grimstonefire wrote:I am feeling quite confident that by this time next year I will be holding a new CD model in my hand (07/07/10). Someone can sig that if they want.
 
   
Made in ca
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Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I'm all for female Models(as long as they don't try to turn them into sex symbols, this is 40K, not Xena), but with limitations, if there is a fluff reason, then don't make them. So no female Orks or Space Marines.

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Screaming Shining Spear




Pittsburgh, PA

I'd say no just cause I'm against changing fluff, and they've already stated lots of times that gene seed only works with males. However, I do think they should have more female xenos models, like what they did with the DE, and female guardsmen so I could make a Tanith force

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Pro choice.

If you want them you can have them, but i'm not about to firebomb GW for not having them.


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Cary, NC

Firmly in the "against" camp.

I don't think the current fluff reasons are "deus ex machina". The current fluff says that it requires a male specimen, and that specimen has to be relatively young, and few survive the process. I don't think that is any more "arbitrary" than pointing out that you have to be female to get pregnant. No one argues that the current fluff is arbitrary so you should be able to make everyone into marines, so that all humans can be Space Marines. Why not do away with all normal humans and have the Imperial Guard populated entirely by Space Marines? We can be more inclusive that way (and wouldn't including everyone be more inclusive than just including some women?).

Given that every single Space Marine in every single piece of fluff ever from GW (and I'm saying fiction, not that one female space marine from Rogue Trader) has been male, I would think that making female space marines would either constitute a relatively major fluff revision (if they were there all along) or innovation (if we suddenly learn how to do it). The Imperium can't even repair damage to current Space Marine geneseed (loss of organs, etc), but now they have learned how to do something which eluded the Emperor himself?

Females are sorely under-represented in GW. I don't know if you mean in representations in the game, which I agree with, or in representation as gamers, which I agree with.

In game representations, I think this would be much better addressed by increasing the availability of female models which already exist in the GW universe, such as Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Imperial Guard. Given that the Imperial Guard explicitly DOES induct females (to the extent of even having all-female regiments), it would seem to be a much better argument to increase the availability of female Eldar and Imperial Guard models, rather than create an entirely new line of female models. It would also seem to be a much better argument to revive and revamp the Sisters of Battle, rather than invent an entirely new line of female models.

In regards to increasing the number of female gamers, I'm not convinced that producing Female Space Marines will translate into females playing the game. In my own very limited gaming group (of about 10 current and former players), we have had two female players. One played Dark Eldar, the other plays Skaven. The Skaven player had every opportunity to pick an army with female models, and chose not to do so. Her second army is High Elves, and she has not purchased any female models specifically. The plural of anecdote is not data, I know. However, is it clear that females do not choose to play armies which do not have a corresponding female gender (Necrons, Orks, etc.?) Is it clear that females DO predominantly play armies with female models, and, in that army, choose to purchase proportionately more female models (Dark Eldar, Eldar, Daemons, Sisters of Battle?).

If producing an army consisting almost entirely of Power-armored gothic warriors (Sisters of Battle) is not sufficient to attract female players to the game, will producing more power-armored gothic warriors for another army (Space Marines) succeed? Will it be necessary to produce gendered necrons? Would it be possible to attract more female gamers by producing more Sisters of Battle models, or by producing a series of female Imperial Guard models? Could the same desired result (attracting more female gamers) be achieved by a method less disruptive to the background of the game?

I can understand people not liking the background of the universe and wishing it were different. Some people might wish that the Imperium was entirely noble and good, so that they did not have to play an army which could be cruel and horrible at times. Some people might wish that the Imperium was not xenophobic, so that they could have aliens in their Imperial Guard or Space Marine armies. Some people might wish that the Eldar and Humans were friends, so that they could have Eldar warriors and humans in the same army. Some people might wish the Tau were more capable at close combat, so that they could field awesome Tau Dreadnoughts that could rule close combat. Some people might wish that Orks got along with humans better (like on Gorkamorka) so that orks and humans could share vehicles. Some people might wish that there were loyal Imperial subjects who didn't subscribe to the Imperial Creed, so that they could play an Imperial Guard army with no religious belief (or a religious belief in someone other than the Emperor, such as Buddha, or Christ).

I just don't understand why this particular desire (Female Space Marines) is special. Why is it necessary for people who don't like this one particular suggested change to GW's universe to be small-minded, or unimaginative, or sexist, or sophomoric, or rules-sticklers? Why can't we dislike it for the same reasons that we might dislike other suggested changes to the universe of GW?

 
   
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Seattle WA

I could care less.

Male SM to female SM girlfriend who is in labor in the battlefeild.

"Come on honey squeeze one out FOR THE EMPRAH!"

You think BA has red rage....


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Huge Hierodule





Ottawa, ON

Ma55ter_fett wrote:I could care less.

Male SM to female SM girlfriend who is in labor in the battlefeild.

"Come on honey squeeze one out FOR THE EMPRAH!"

You think BA has red rage....


I'd assume their plumbing is as broken as the male space marine's.

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Huge Hierodule




United States



IB4L & Flamewar that always comes from bringing up this topic.

As for my opinion...if you want boobs on Marines, play Slaanesh.

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The Conquerer






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I think that Female marines are just wrong for the feel of this game.


Marine Chapters are all about the brotherly comraderie and doing Bro things.

SoB have the Sorority thing down so why extend it.


besides, we don't need another sci-fi/fantesy with tons of warrior women in it.

SoB do that job just fine without taking it OTT.



and we all KNOW how GW would feth up the sculpting and we would end up with little better then an 40k peep show.

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The sisters of battle already fill the role or power armored females and I rather like them as is. I could see where someone on the field of battle, less versed in the forces of the Imperium, could confuse the Black Templars and the sisters of the Order of the Valorous Heart as being of the same unit. With the Gothic basis of this universe, the genders of the orders would be in keeping with historical example as being wholly separate. I was glad to see that the figurine example of a femarine was not modified to have a comical, uh, um... "breastplate". The athleticism required of the life of a space marine would not lend to much of any thing up that way due to reduced body fat %.


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but GW would ignore that so they could have boobie marines.

SoB are still able to have breasts because they arn't being quite as active as a marine is.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Murdock129 wrote:The fluff is very often altered (see the Jokerao)


I'll be the first (and often am the first) to point out the arbitrary nature of GW's fluff; they will change anything and everything to make the fluff fit their model release schedule. However it is often the exceptions that prove the rule and GW keeps very few things consistent in 40K. Marines being male is one of those things - a 'written in stone' sort of thing - and for that reason there are no, have never been any*, and never will be any female Marines without a complete shakeup of 40K as a whole.



*First person to point out the 'female' in power armour model from the Rogue Trader days gets a slap. Nothing was consistent in the RT days. Only since 2nd Ed onwards have they made an effort to 'rationalise' the universe.

   
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How would they introduce this?

And suddenly, the Imperium remembered where 5,000 Space Marine Sisters were deployed thousands of years ago, and decided to recall them.

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