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Hi all, I've been thinking about something recently.

As a Blood Angels player, I try to look at sample BA lists when they appear on Dakka. One thing I've noticed is that essentially nobody uses the option to arm the various models that can take a Power Weapon with a single Lightning Claw instead. The Claw and PW cost the same and if one can be taken, so can the other generally speaking. Just for clarity, note that the effective trade-off is one more attack versus re-rolling to wound.

Here are some Mathhammer numbers. This first table is expected number of unsaved wounds inflicted for an Assault Squad Sergeant on the charge versus various opponents:

GEQ MEQ TEQ PM T6 TH/SS Wyches
Lightning Claw 1.778 1.125 0.75 0.833 0.458 0.375 0.667
Power Weapon 1.778 1 0.667 0.667 0.333 0.333 0.667

This is an obvious win for the Lightning Claw; there is nothing that the Power Weapon is better at killing.

This second table is the same, but without the charge bonus, which obviously helps the LC sarge more than the PW sarge:

GEQ MEQ TEQ PM T6 TH/SS Wyches
Lightning Claw 1.185 0.75 0.5 0.556 0.306 0.25 0.444
Power Weapon 1.333 0.75 0.5 0.5 0.25 0.25 0.5

The Power Weapon has a few strengths here, but I still think that the Lightning Claw is better in an all-comers sense. The rest of the Squad will kill plenty of Guardsmen, and fighting Wyches in CC is bad news all around.

So, Dakka, am I missing something here? The only reason I can think of that most people would use the PW is that acquiring LCs for modelling is somewhat of a pain, while PWs come in every box. I don't currently have either in my army currently, but I plan to take LCs in the future if I would have added a PW.

EDIT: Sorry about the formatting, it looks better in the text box.

Power weapon allows for an extra attack with a pistol, while getting an extra attack with a claw costs double.

Can't you have one claw and a pistol anyway and still get the extra attack for the pistol?

Surtur wrote:Power weapon allows for an extra attack with a pistol, while getting an extra attack with a claw costs double.

Exactly. What I'm analyzing is taking a single claw, that will therefore NOT get a bonus attack, similar to a Power Fist. A single Claw costs the same as a Power Weapon.

Some people prefer more dice than mathhammering it out, is how I see it. If old mate has a combiweapon, then you'd be a fool to give him a PW if a LC is the same cost.

And please format your mathhammer some commas or colons to break it up would help

its not a huge gain for the LC until you get up to T5 or 6.

lets also not forget how poorly it performs againsts grots.

I think its a modeling thing. Too hard to convert and often looks dumb with just one oversized lightning claw.

Depends entirely on what's in the other hand IMO.

I'm partial to the LC regardless.

Take the PW and you can take a plasma pistol too!

A single lightning claw is about half useless. Either go all the way, or nothing.

A single lightning claw is better than a power weapon (and CCW) in almost every single realistic situation.

The only times where a power weapon+CCW will be more effective is when you either have an extremely low number of attacks (ie, 1 Attack base), or if you're attacking consistantly at +2S to your opponent's toughness. Every other situation, a single lightning claw will outperform the PW+CCW combo with average rolling.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:A single lightning claw is about half useless. Either go all the way, or nothing.

Given that you pay double the price for ONE extra attack, I have to assume you're kidding.

Fafnir wrote:A single lightning claw is better than a power weapon (and CCW) in almost every single realistic situation.

The only times where a power weapon+CCW will be more effective is when you either have an extremely low number of attacks (ie, 1 Attack base), or if you're attacking consistantly at +2S to your opponent's toughness. Every other situation, a single lightning claw will outperform the PW+CCW combo with average rolling.

Exactly. I understand the modeling concerns, but I can't imagine that is the primary concern for everyone. Yes, the advantage may be small, but it adds up over time.

Exergy wrote:lets also not forget how poorly it performs againsts grots.

I just can't stop giggling at this comment.... brilliant man, just brilliant.

I suppose the real question is one of what else are you using the weapon slots for? The extra claw may only be getting you +1A, but it's making a beefcake in close combat beefcakier. In the case of IC's this also helps their survivability.

If the lightning claw is free, then take it, but often when I've seen it, it costs 10 or 15 points just for a single claw. When this is the case, spending 25 or 30 points for a pair makes much more sense, as there is a real difference between a pair of claws and a single power weapon, whereas I don't know if there's necessarily 15 points of difference between a single claw and a power weapon.

Unless, of course, there's something that you REALLY want to be holding onto in your other hand, but is a single combi weapon (or whatever) really worth it?

I ran an all bikes army with a captain with a PW vs a LC. I found through rigorous play testing that 1)Kahn is way better than a captain and 2) one LC performs better than PW generally. obviously run what you want as the results are similar but mathammer seems to work really well in this case.

@luke - I'd give him a relic blade, personally, but to each their own.

As for Single LC vs. Power Weapon, I do actually believe it boils down to a modeling question more often then not, and as someone mentioned possibly not understanding the math behind re-rolls to wound vs +1 attack. Sometime mathhammer just doesn't convince people.

@ magister- the reason why you dont give a bike capt a relic blade is because on a bike the rider is relentless so he can double tap into combat and drive in. A relic blade could not be used as it is a 2h weapon.

Why wouldn't he be able to use his Bike TL-Bolters and then charge while having relentless? Heck, you only give up one thing to get a relic blade, so he would still have his bolter. 2 Handed only counts in Close Combat now. He just won't get a bonus attack in CC.

I swear i read it somewhere but I must have been hallucinating. I can't find anything in the rulebook that states that you cant fire a weapon and assault with a 2h weapon.

Epic fail on me.

Where do you even get easy access to LC bits of any kind, much less plastic ones?

SM commander box has 1 Plastic LC(left handed).

Wolf Pack box gives you 2 paired sets(wolfy markings easily shaved off). I have a set on my Jump-pack 'nilla captain.

SM Veterans Mark 1 gives you a pair of metal LCs.

Also you can get a metal pair from the Vet single-purchase, or a single right-handed metal from another single-purchase Vet.

Assault termies give you 5 sets in plastic, but would need some slight converting for power Armor.

There's also a dude with dual lightning claws (metal) in the Sword Brethren pack, although there's so much Templar stuff on them that, when paired with the fact that they're cast attatched to the torso already, it probably isn't worth it.

I love the look of claws, but often I find an extra attack helps more. Especially seeing as CC is normally hitting on 4s, and toughness much more variable. So, I'd rather hit more than wound more.

Fafnir wrote:A single lightning claw is better than a power weapon (and CCW) in almost every single realistic situation.

The only times where a power weapon+CCW will be more effective is when you either have an extremely low number of attacks (ie, 1 Attack base), or if you're attacking consistantly at +2S to your opponent's toughness. Every other situation, a single lightning claw will outperform the PW+CCW combo with average rolling.

Quiting this because it's the most sense in this thread. Additionally if you model only has one base attack it's barely worth buying a special weapon for him anyway. GW's mistake was making the power weapon and LC cost the same; the LC is simply better.

Ailaros wrote:I suppose the real question is one of what else are you using the weapon slots for? The extra claw may only be getting you +1A, but it's making a beefcake in close combat beefcakier. In the case of IC's this also helps their survivability.

If the lightning claw is free, then take it, but often when I've seen it, it costs 10 or 15 points just for a single claw. When this is the case, spending 25 or 30 points for a pair makes much more sense, as there is a real difference between a pair of claws and a single power weapon, whereas I don't know if there's necessarily 15 points of difference between a single claw and a power weapon.

Unless, of course, there's something that you REALLY want to be holding onto in your other hand, but is a single combi weapon (or whatever) really worth it?

Ailaros, I think you are a bit confused. In the new Space Marine codeces, including Blood Angels, most Sarges can take a single Lightning Claw for 15 points, a Power Weapon for 15 points, or a pair of Lightning Claws for 30 points. That is, a single Lightning Claw and a Power Weapon cost the same. I agree that trading a Power Weapon for a single claw isn't worth 15 points, but it's actually free. This is probably an oversight, to be honest. Moreover, since the second claw costs just as much as the first, taking 2 is going to be stupid in almost all cases, as you're paying 15 points for 1 extra attack. In older codeces, the second claw was 5 points I believe, which is reasonable.

Remember, an extra attack works out to be about 0.6 extra unsaved wounds in the most favorable circumstances (Hit on 3+, Wound on 3+ with a re-roll). If you only get this extra attack once (a reasonable assumption as the times in which you get it more than once probably balance with the times when you don't get it at all or it ends up being overkill), it needs to be directed at a 25 point model to make the points back. There aren't too many WS3 T3 1W models out there that cost 25 points, and when you are attacking them you've probably won anyway no matter what the Sarge is armed with. Versus tougher stuff, the expected wounds drop to .375 against MEQ and .25 against TEQ, so you need to be attacking 40 and 60 point models, which generally do not exist outside of ICs.


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lunarman wrote:I love the look of claws, but often I find an extra attack helps more. Especially seeing as CC is normally hitting on 4s, and toughness much more variable. So, I'd rather hit more than wound more.

See, here's the thing: Missing a lot hurts the value of the Power Weapon too. An extra attack that usually misses isn't worth much. Just to be clear, all the results above include the probability of hitting, based on the WS of the target and assuming the attacker is WS4. The math shows that the PW only has an advantage at 2 attacks or less vs. GEQ or I guess in general against Grots. In my opinion, this is not a YMMV kind of thing, unless you genuinely believe that your dice have different probabilities than probabilistically fair ones. Over the long run, a single LC will kill more against everything except the exceptions noted above. If you choose the PW for modeling reasons, or other stuff unrelated to actual tabletop results, I completely support your decision. Otherwise, you're leaving kills on the table.

MrEconomics wrote:In the new Space Marine codeces, including Blood Angels, most Sarges can take a single Lightning Claw for 15 points, a Power Weapon for 15 points, or a pair of Lightning Claws for 30 points. That is, a single Lightning Claw and a Power Weapon cost the same. I agree that trading a Power Weapon for a single claw isn't worth it, but it's actually free. This is probably an oversight, to be honest. Moreover, since the second claw costs just as much as the first, taking 2 is going to be stupid in almost all cases, as you're paying 15 points for 1 extra attack. In older codeces, the second claw was 5 points I believe, which is reasonable.

The power weapon should be 15 points and the claw 20 points. Set either 25 or 30 points but o well. Its the same way in the chaos codex. Maybe they are just trying to get more people to model claws. More $$ for them as people buy lots of models with claws

More like somebody asked 'How much should we make a single claw?' when they ditched the armory section, and nobody really looked at the situation. They still aren't anywhere near easy to acquire though, and it puts you at a higher risk of new edition-induced obsolescence.

I think that this is important to look at compared to a glaive encarmine for blood angels.. essentially a 2 handed (so no extra attack... just like when you're taking a lightning claw) but re-rolls to hit... if you can't hit you can't attempt to wound...

I think the reason I don't have many Lightning Claws is because I tend to give my Sergeants Power Fists instead.

I do have have LCs on my Sanguinary Priests. Partly because they carry combi-meltas so would lose the extra attack. But also because I think it generally gives them better survivability if they get assaulted than a PF or PW would.

Phototoxin wrote:I think that this is important to look at compared to a glaive encarmine for blood angels.. essentially a 2 handed (so no extra attack... just like when you're taking a lightning claw) but re-rolls to hit... if you can't hit you can't attempt to wound...

much better than glaive, you can re-roll all the wounds, master craft you can only re-roll one.

First, people don't use regular power weapons a whole lot to start with (powerfists generally trump both power weapons and claws)

Second, the advantage is almost negligible. It's certainly not enough for most people to justify obtaining the bits for conversion.

Third, there is an argument for weight of attacks in that it is more likely to produce the statistical averages. Sometimes you want to count on that one hit getting through against that HQ you're locked up with.