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Are Grey Knight Psyriflemen dreadnoughts the next vendetta/longfangs? or will there be builds that do not include them? Seems that you have to have at least 2 if not 3 for long ranged fire because psycannons are only 24 range.

I don't use them, so there will definitely be at least one build that doesn't.

Of course, the style I play makes 24" more than enough.

you do need something with longer than 24 range. There are other options, like henchmen, interceptors, and storm ravens. Yet the Psyriffleman is the most "plug and play" and doesn't impose too much into your list building. need the HS units? Take vendreads. Need elites? Take the heavy support dreads.

I know they are not vendetta good, as the vendetta transport + scout makes it far too versatile. However, A psyrifleman is about as good shooting wise as a 5 missile longfang squad in terms of damage output.

That said, long fangs can not move, BUT if the dread and the long fangs both have cover it takes 6 failed saves to kill the fangs while only 3 pens will kill a dread. The fangs are wounded a bit easier of course, but versus something like another psyriflemen, the fangs with their 3+ armor should beat a psyriflemen better than a psyriflemen will beat a psyriflemen.

With that said, there is something to be said for the psyriflemen being on very close footing with longfangs, seeing as long fangs are some of the best shooters in the game. So yeah long fangs are a bit better, plus have frag templates and split fire, but the psyriflemen for 5 points cheaper is no slouch, and against something like daemons I doubt bloodletters want any piece of a psyriflemen.

Semi OT but im happy you used an avatar i made Avariel xD

"Shunt Punch" lists focusing on dreadknights and interceptors probably will not likely use them. Paladin deathstar armies probably won't either. Everyone else I suspect will.

Topic aside, I do not think shunt punch is a good list. You pay far to mutch to shunt early. Witch is quite bad is you meet another mellee list.

They're no vendetta equal but the dreads will arguably fill in the long range role many other units fill in such as vendettas, long fangs, ravagers, lootas, hive guard, etc

kenshin620 wrote:They're no vendetta equal but the dreads will arguably fill in the long range role many other units fill in such as vendettas, long fangs, ravagers, lootas, hive guard, etc

They are no vendetta, but they will claim a large number of them I'm betting. Mine have already have killed several storm ravens (BA ones at that).

I really do think that it is going to be very hard to not take deads, mostly because of the riffleman version, but also for how good reinforced aegis is. -4 LD on targeted powers? Yes please. I've already blocked enough powers with it (playing against nids and BA) to show how valuable it is.

notabot187 wrote:

I really do think that it is going to be very hard to not take deads, mostly because of the riffleman version, but also for how good reinforced aegis is. -4 LD on targeted powers? Yes please. I've already blocked enough powers with it (playing against nids and BA) to show how valuable it is.

Ahh true, its actually quite amazing how many psykers have anti tank abilities that normally would chop a dread up

The problem is that there is very little it isn't good against, especially in the current meta. It really does fit nicely into non-niche GK lists.

Psyflemen fill the longranged anti-tank role GKs otherwise lack(if you arn't running Inquisition forces)

the Vindicare also fills that gap(and creates his own little niche) at a slightly shorter range.


they are also the cheaper of the HS choices. landraiders to tansport my Termies or Dreadknights or Purgation squads. armies that require neither of these will take Psyflemen.

Grey Templar wrote:
the Vindicare also fills that gap(and creates his own little niche) at a slightly shorter range.

What's that? You're putting all your Lascannons on my Vindicare? Have fun deeling with that 3+ cover save!

Well what I meant was that are Psyriflemen the auto include that you see in most space wolf lists have 2-3 long fang packs and most guard lists have 2-3 Vendettas?

I'm inclined to think they might be since you tend to need something for long range firepower. But want to know what other people think who been testing it more then I have.

Looking at your other ramged anti tank options within Grey Knights.

Vindicare costs more then a psyriflemen and only gets 1 shot. It will likely hit and penetrate but is not so good if the vehicle has cover. Vindicare also is pretty fragile despite the cover save since now vindicare can just be shot.

Jokers are bs 3 and cost too much given that 2 is the optimal number to get +12 range and you should be buying them a transport for protection.

Psycannons have range 24 and lose half their shots if you want to move so really aren't that long ranged.

Bruteforce
Shunt Punch just sounds to gimicky and costs too many points to me. Unless you are taking a grandmaster for the scout shunt which might not even be legal by the time the FAQ comes around just seems like you just shunt to get shot and assaulted. Shunting is much more useful for last minute objective contesting.

DevianID
Long Fangs vs Psyriflemen actually is a tough one. Long Fangs lose effectiveness as they lose members. Psyriflemen can hide behind vehicles for cover which makes them pretty resilient more so if you have a venerable.

Do you think Venerable Psyriflemen are worth it?

Depends how much you value the ability to ignore 1/3rd of the damage table since venerables stand a good chance of getting stunned/shaken

If your opponent has no psychic defense then it could be worth it. However, I still feel that purifiers are a better choice if you're already using heavy support dreads

Psy dreads and long fangs are totally different animals.

While both shoot STR 8 goodness, the Psy dread is better against tanks thanks to twin linked autocannons and move to shoot. The long fangs, however, are still AP 3, and they can use blast templates against infantry.

Regarding resilience, mathematically, both units are close. The problem with psydreads tho is all it needs is a bad roll and it dies. The long fang is more consistently durable albeit at the cost of losing fire power per member killed.

Ultimately, I think long fangs win out simply because Psy dread competes with the Dreadknight. Long fangs dont compete with anything.

Out of topic but regarding DK shunt: I really think it is overrated and over costed. Especially if you can deepstrike with the dreadknights by modifying their reserve rolls with psychic communion and guiding their descent with skull probes.

well, for those of us who won't be using DKs, the Psyflemen don't compete with anything.

Grey Templar wrote:well, for those of us who won't be using DKs, the Psyflemen don't compete with anything.

Land Raiders.



Pfff... hehehee

Well, i am running a Purifier army so i don't need LR transports.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:well, for those of us who won't be using DKs, the Psyflemen don't compete with anything.

Land Raiders.



Pfff... hehehee

You don't actually need land raiders in GKs anymore (where in the past you needed them, or at least the dreads for anti tank). The only unit I see running in a LR is a DCA/crusader squad with xenos inquisitor (for rad grenades and hammer hand) in a LRC. Only one LR, so that is still 2 regular Prifflenaughts, and maybe a vendread to make up for it.

notabot187 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:well, for those of us who won't be using DKs, the Psyflemen don't compete with anything.

Land Raiders.



Pfff... hehehee

You don't actually need land raiders in GKs anymore (where in the past you needed them, or at least the dreads for anti tank).

Yeah, because I wasn't being sarcastic or anything.

I only posted because I have seen people make the LR argument. Not that I seriously thought you were advocating them. Hell, I ran 2-3 last book.

notabot187 wrote:I only posted because I have seen people make the LR argument. Not that I seriously thought you were advocating them. Hell, I ran 2-3 last book.

Wasn't that much stuff with long-range anti-tank last book though (still isn't, but what we have is sufficient). Wasn't a lot of transports for PAGK either.

What the GK dread does (breaking light armor) it does better than the vendetta and longfangs, but it is not as versitile as either. You can't really compare them one to one because of it.

Plus, as it's been said, it competes with other heavy slots, although I think it's the best by a lot.

ArtfcllyFlvrd, the GK dread does not really break light armor better than the Vendetta or Longfangs. True it does get more hits than either, BUT you shouldnt rate the unit only on the amount of hits it brings. The Vendetta for example can outflank for side shots, or move 12 inches. Also, dropping off a squad of melta vets to nuke a vehicle must be included in the antivehicle abilities of the Vendetta.

As for longfangs, spliting fire is a really good ability, meaning the 3 longfang units can break up to 6 vehicles a turn. Thus the longfangs have a greater potential, despite having a marginally smaller number of hits.

So yeah, the GK dread is not better than either the vendetta or the longfangs--I would trade the GK heavy dread for either of those options for grey knights in a heart beat--especially the vendetta.

And Avariel, you asked if Venerables are worth it. The answer is absolutely, but with caveats. Basicly, if the enemy is going to shoot at your dreadnaughts (and if they have vehicles then they SHOULD shoot at your dreads) the huge survivability increase that the ven provides mean that 135 points of ven dreads will get ~30% more shots than 135 points of regular dread, but only when the enemy is shooting at you. But if you think the enemy will ignore your dreads to shoot your other units, then there is no point in venerables because you wont need the survivability.

Generally speaking, you're going to quickly find that while it is statistically worth its points when it comes to actual gameplay, your AV12 Dread is going down quick and as GKs you shouldn't have that many other targets for your opponents AT...

The Dreads always go down much too quickly and so yes I would take the venerable if at all.

To those nay saying the shunt punch list, it isn't just about the dreadknight. Interceptors are a big part of that list as well. I've run modified shut punch lists myself and have yet to field a dreadknight (and depending on the way the jump infantry/MC fiasco goes, I may never).

Yes, long range anti tank is useful, and yes psyrifle dreds are your cheapest and most consistent source of that but there are alternatives.

As others have mentioned, vindicare does the same job in a different way. He may not have the range or number of shots but he has infiltrate and higher penetrating power. Plus, and this part is important, he absolutely ruins infantry units once they are taken out of their transports. Most infantry will laugh at our dreds because they either don't have the ap or number of shoots to make a dent. But vindicare can ruin them in 1 shot by sniping leaders and forcing pinning tests on lower leadership, or just getting rid of all the useful weapons.

I run both dreds and a vindicare in my lists and find myself appreciating what the assassin can do much more often.

More on topic: GK have plenty of options for dealing with vehicles, you should try reading some of the battlereports on dakka to see what I mean. Many, many lists will not run drednoughts and will still preform very well.

Thank you for the replies.

Venerables psyriflemen cost like 60 points more then basic ones which is quite a bit if your taking 3 of them. They also compete with Purifiers for elite slots unless you taking Crowe and I don't really see them fitting in a Crowe list when your paying the Crowe tax along with maxing on Purifiers. Yes they are better but finding the points is hard.

Shunt punch seems like it spends too much points on shunting and punching and you don't have that much for troops which are important in 2/3's the missions. Grandmaster, dreadknights and interceptors aren't cheap.

Not having dreads or something with range just seems especially bad in dawn of war or spearhead where 24 inch range psy cannons can be out ranged pretty badly.

Avariel I'd like to address your points because I don't really agree with any of them.

-Venerables are insanely survivable compared to just about anything save paladins. They really will stand up to a whole world of firepower and keep going. They have twin linked BS5 which happens to be the highest accuracy in the game, something like 97% chance to hit. Plus if you are running a purifier list you are going to seriously be lacking range, making them even more important in that case. MSU purifiers simply don't have the firepower to reliably drop vehicles without focus firing them, whereas you can point 1 dread at a tank and be pretty confident it is going down.

-Grandmasters cost the exact same as a librarian with a few psychic powers. I have never seen one cheaper than 170, putting them on an equal footing there. Furthermore they are an excellent HQ no matter what you design your list to do, its why so many people run 1-2 of them. Unless you are absolutely desperate for points I don't see why you wouldn't want either a GM or a librarian in your list, as they are the strongest HQs we can get, and very reasonably priced no less. Crowe and Coteaz do very little for your army except get you new troop choices, whereas a GM and librarian act as huge force multipliers on the battlefield. The other choices do nothing but save you points on your HQ, which isn't where you should be looking to go cheap anyways.

-Who are you comparing the dreadknights and interceptors to in cost? They are 130 base and other than strike squads and shooting henchmen are very comparable to the rest of the army. Start putting upgrades on any unit and it will cost as much or more as they do. Terminators and paladins will almost always be more expensive to boot. So I fail to see what makes them so expensive compared to the vast majority of units in the GK codex.

-Spearhead and dawn of war are the scenarios where 24" will come into play faster than pitched battle. Look at the set up in the Big Book. You deploy 12-18" away from the enemy. Thats within range on turn 1, especially considering these are assault weapons we're talking about. So your effective range is more like 30-36", putting you well over what you need to start shooting on the 1st turn.

To echo Bruteboss in a way, Venerables can definately outperform an equal points amount of regular dreads. So the 60 extra points may seem like you get less, but you actually get more, in a particular circumstance. That circumstance is when your opponent would be inclined to shoot your regular dreads.

Now, if you think your opponent will ignore your regular dreads, then the substansial survivability boost on the venerable will be worthless. That said, your opponents SHOULD be shooting your psyriflemen, but sometimes people make mistakes and sometimes other units seem more threatening.

So venerables arent always better and arent always worse, its a matter of metagame and list cohesion. Avariel if your like me then your probably not going to start a real grey knight build until the FAQ clarifies the many questions in the rulebook, so I would hold off on making list and tactics decisions until then.