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Thats odd, having played against a lot of people with SR theyve never found it to be useless.

THey make an excellent anti flyer (or light AV vehicle in general) weapon, especially when combined with PotMS

If you cant see it's utility, then it really isnt our or GWs fault.

... I'm not saying the stormraven itself is useless.

The assault cannon is a poor choice with this limitation, and it would be best to not even include it as an option with these limitations.. the TLLC is far better.

I never said that the SR itself is useless. IF you noticed the context it was all about the TLAC being very good.

The cannon is a VERY good choice at killing light AV, same as it ever was

It is a VERY good choice at killing fliers

Your categorical denial of the plainly obvious utility of the TLAC jsut because it isnt quite as versatile as you wanted IS NOT the fault of GW nor the posters on dakka. The model has some built in, designed in limitations - undeniable given the fact the vertical arc rules are unchanged since its release - and you have to weigh those up when deciding how to arm the model.

Target has a point, you only have to be able to see the top of the unit so it's only not good at hitting short units (oh crap they're fielding squats). Can anybody get a messure on how close a Daemon prince could be? Being as I believe the SR was originally intended for AA instead of AtG fighting that's more relevent because DP are FMC sometimes...If I was a TO I'd let them shoot them seeing as they are supposed to be elevated but that's just my opinion.

Also you should note that the average charge distance is 7, with movement of 6 when disembarking. so you'll generally should be around 13 away form a unit when your troops disembark and you can shoot at it. OMG 1 inch of unseen squad?! Guess it is closer to 2.5 inches of restricted fire. Also note that you can hit the very last unit in a squad so hordes like orks are even more vulnerable to SR fire

edit: I didn't mean to sound like I'm attacking the OP cuz I get the point of the thread. What tactics can the SR be used for if it has this blind spot. So to that I say as I see it the SR really should be more of a transport/tank busting vehicle. Seeing as fliers are just flying tanks for the most part this also lets the SR be great AA support for a time where we are seeing limited AA availible in general. So in conclusion the SR shouldn't be just another kills everything unit, That's why they made fliers IMHO so we would have to show more variety in our lists not just spam tanks and win.

Every codex has at least one unit/weapon/rule that is "useless", by someones definition.

A lot of people really like the shoota-boy mobs.
I personally think shoota-boyz have been worthless in every edition... Until now.
I've spoken to one or two Ork-erz that swear that the slugga/choppa boyz are useless, but they are the way that I've always played them.

One arguement is that w/ the shootaz, you get more shots, and you won't get all your boyz into CC, so you want more shots.
My arguement is, Orkz have a BS so that they can hear their guns firing... And I won't get all my boyz into CC, so I want as many CC-Attacks as I can get.

With the Snap Shot rule, those shoota boyz are looking a whole lot better, because their BS 2 is no longer the issue.

But facts are facts... If I want to hit the target when I shoot them, I take gretchin. If I want to survive a shot, and hit the target w/ an engine block, I take orkz.

If you want support, take a Storm Talon. If you want transport, take a Storm Raven. If you want both, take a Storm Raven, escorted by a Storm Talon. Then no one can tell you that you can't hit them. PLUS, you can put the TLLC on the SR, and the TLAC on the ST, and have both! Which I would hate, as an Ork...

You know, the Storm Eagle has more of a "blind spot" than the Storm Raven, because those missiles are all the way at the rear!

And we Orkz don't get any love in the ranged Anti-tank area! (enters into dark alliance w/ the Dark Eldar for all that Blaster-y goodness )

protonhunter wrote:Target has a point, you only have to be able to see the top of the unit so it's only not good at hitting short units (oh crap they're fielding squats). Can anybody get a messure on how close a Daemon prince could be? Being as I believe the SR was originally intended for AA instead of AtG fighting that's more relevent because DP are FMC sometimes...If I was a TO I'd let them shoot them seeing as they are supposed to be elevated but that's just my opinion.

Also you should note that the average charge distance is 7, with movement of 6 when disembarking. so you'll generally should be around 13 away form a unit when your troops disembark and you can shoot at it. OMG 1 inch of unseen squad?! Guess it is closer to 2.5 inches of restricted fire. Also note that you can hit the very last unit in a squad so hordes like orks are even more vulnerable to SR fire

edit: I didn't mean to sound like I'm attacking the OP cuz I get the point of the thread. What tactics can the SR be used for if it has this blind spot. So to that I say as I see it the SR really should be more of a transport/tank busting vehicle. Seeing as fliers are just flying tanks for the most part this also lets the SR be great AA support for a time where we are seeing limited AA availible in general. So in conclusion the SR shouldn't be just another kills everything unit, That's why they made fliers IMHO so we would have to show more variety in our lists not just spam tanks and win.

I don't care what the average charge distance is. With new variable assault range rules, your pretty foolish if you don't get the vehicle in as close as possible to drop off the cargo.

And yes, a weapon with literally half its range GONE to a blind spot is pretty damn useless. You are much better off with a lascannon, where only 25% of its range is a dead zone.

Horst wrote:The success rate for a 6" charge is like 70%... and it decreases every inch after that. I want to drop my guys off within 12" of the target almost always, so I can have a nearly 100% chance of making the charge.

If your deploying far back enough to actually use the assault cannon, you run the risk of A) not making the charge in the first place, or B) killing 2-3 models from the unit your trying to charge, increasing the risk of A. Of course, killing 2-3 models wouldn't matter if your deploying 3" away from them to begin with, but if your deploying at 6-8" out, your fail rate for charges becomes MUCH higher.


So, the assault cannon is useless. I just wish it came with a disclaimer on the vehicle, warning people that because GW did a terrible job with flier rules combined with the model design, the weapon has a 14" blind spot.

It. Does. Not. Have. A. 14. Inch. Blind. Spot.

Models have height, they are not flat slips of paper. I'll measure the real blindspot when I get home, but it's not nearly that bad.

about the missiles on the storm eagle...

They are literally useless against anything but air targets. You will NEVER be able to hit a ground target with them, unless its level with the flying base. Yet another reason I believe GW just overlooked firing arcs when designing these rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Target wrote:

It. Does. Not. Have. A. 14. Inch. Blind. Spot.

Models have height, they are not flat slips of paper. I'll measure the real blindspot when I get home, but it's not nearly that bad.

Maybe I suck at measuring. its possible, i wasn't using a protractor.

If its 6" or less, I'll shut up and deal, because I can live with a 6" dead spot around the vehicle.

"I don't care what the average charge distance is. With new variable assault range rules, your pretty foolish if you don't get the vehicle in as close as possible to drop off the cargo."

You can only move 6" before dropping off cargo, who then move up to 6" away.

Throwing in a reroll and that charge is more like 9".

"And yes, a weapon with literally half its range GONE to a blind spot is pretty damn useless. You are much better off with a lascannon, where only 25% of its range is a dead zone. "
Wrong. I gave you 2 very good "non useless" reasons for the TLAC, which you continue to ignore in your apparent desire to see nothing but the bad in something.

It also isnt half its range against everything. The game isnt played on a flat plane, you do realise that right?

Nobody wants that...
Dealing is fine...
But don't "shut up"...

That's how a lot of these little rules foibles/Machavelian-schemes get brought to light.
I for one never thought about the vertical arc of fire, and have had my boyz hosed by those stupid TLAC a LOT.
Now I can cry and whine if Cameron tries to shoot at them from too close... We'll probably just decide it doesn't matter, but it gives me something to whine about!
I like whining... It brings me joy... But only if it's funny/sensible whining.
Otherwise it's boring.

Oh, and you're also ignoring that the blind spot can be beneficial to you. You cannot wound models out of LOS of the weapon, which in this case would be at the front of the unit you want to assault.

Take a reasonably spread out unit, usual anti blast formation. You have a good chance of only being able to see the rear of the unit, meaning wounds can only be allocated against the models at the back - often where key models are now located - and they wont affect your chances of making the charge, unlike most other times people shoot at units.

Stop. Looking. at. The. Bad. The sky isnt falling, it isnt as bad as you think!

I just discovered the ignore feature on this forum. Everyone in this thread now agrees with me!

I'm happy.

So whe presented with reasoned arguments showing how things arent as sky-falling as you made out, you ignore those?

Impressive.

And on that note ...