Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

"You paid for that food, now you want to eat it? God, you're soooo entitled."
If you pay with your money for something, you should get to use that something as you choose. This store has the right to post this rule, as do I and any other player who doesn't take their hobby too seriously too play somewhere else.

'You've finished your meal don't moan if they want you to leave when the cheque is settled' would probably be a more apt food based simile.

 notprop wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

"You paid for that food, now you want to eat it? God, you're soooo entitled."
If you pay with your money for something, you should get to use that something as you choose. This store has the right to post this rule, as do I and any other player who doesn't take their hobby too seriously too play somewhere else.

'You've finished your meal don't moan if they want you to leave when the cheque is settled' would probably be a more apt food based simile.

But you haven't really eaten yet have you? It's more of them preparing a nice meal then telling you that you have to take it to go really.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

"You paid for that food, now you want to eat it? God, you're soooo entitled."
If you pay with your money for something, you should get to use that something as you choose. This store has the right to post this rule, as do I and any other player who doesn't take their hobby too seriously too play somewhere else.

'You've finished your meal don't moan if they want you to leave when the cheque is settled' would probably be a more apt food based simile.

But you haven't really eaten yet have you? It's more of them preparing a nice meal then telling you that you have to take it to go really.

I think its more - as soon as we're not getting any more money off you, please leave. You never ask someone to leave with money in their hand, only when its all in yours
So you'd get to eat the meal first

But a restaurant will shoo you out as soon as they want the table.

The store near me shuts later on Thursday nights, why? Because people work a lot and don't have much time. It's kind of bad to be biased to those who have a lot of time on their hands and allow a 7 year old to re-roll wounds in CC. Though the Waaaaghhh rules seem like some fun it should be optional imho.

 notprop wrote:
But a restaurant will shoo you out as soon as they want the table.

Never been asked to leave a restaurant before. I've heard of this but never seen it. Probably because when I do eat out it's usually mom and pop places

 notprop wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

"You paid for that food, now you want to eat it? God, you're soooo entitled."
If you pay with your money for something, you should get to use that something as you choose. This store has the right to post this rule, as do I and any other player who doesn't take their hobby too seriously too play somewhere else.

'You've finished your meal don't moan if they want you to leave when the cheque is settled' would probably be a more apt food based simile.

I would say its more like paying for a meal and then being asked to leave because you are eating it with your hands. Fine in McD's, fine in the middle east, fine with a pizza. Not so fine in a French restaurant. They would not accept "its my food, i can eat how i want" Context and etiquette are vital and unwritten rules.

I don't get the equivalence anyway. You claim that you have the right to use your minis as you wish then claim the store can have whatever rules they like. I don't think anyone is saying you can't have to paint your minis. People are saying that if you are gong to play in a public space don't be surprised when people expect them to be painted. The point about entitlement is the expectation that you are entitled to play with I painted minis in a store just because you have paid for them. That is the sense of entitlement we are talking about.

Paint. Don't paint. I don't think anyone gives a dam. What the pro painted people are saying is they want to see painting encouraged in public gaming and in stores. For paint before play to become the norm in public gaming again. This is nothing like what you are saying.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

"You paid for that food, now you want to eat it? God, you're soooo entitled."
If you pay with your money for something, you should get to use that something as you choose. This store has the right to post this rule, as do I and any other player who doesn't take their hobby too seriously too play somewhere else.

'You've finished your meal don't moan if they want you to leave when the cheque is settled' would probably be a more apt food based simile.

I would say its more like paying for a meal and then being asked to leave because you are eating it with your hands. Fine in McD's, fine in the middle east, fine with a pizza. Not so fine in a French restaurant. They would not accept "its my food, i can eat how i want" Context and etiquette are vital and unwritten rules.

I don't get the equivalence anyway. You claim that you have the right to use your minis as you wish then claim the store can have whatever rules they like. I don't think anyone is saying you can't have to paint your minis. People are saying that if you are gong to play in a public space don't be surprised when people expect them to be painted. The point about entitlement is the expectation that you are entitled to play with I painted minis in a store just because you have paid for them. That is the sense of entitlement we are talking about.

Paint. Don't paint. I don't think anyone gives a dam. What the pro painted people are saying is they want to see painting encouraged in public gaming and in stores. For paint before play to become the norm in public gaming again. This is nothing like what you are saying.

Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 notprop wrote:
But a restaurant will shoo you out as soon as they want the table.

Never been asked to leave a restaurant before. I've heard of this but never seen it. Probably because when I do eat out it's usually mom and pop places

It is universally rude to 'occupy' a table for longer than your meal. Many restaurants have posted 'sitting times' which are only enforced when needed. Also ones with heavy resurvations. A sitting time is usually '2 hours' so that is very generous for reservations as well as allowing people time to enjoy.

Besides being rude to the restaurant, it is rude to your server. If you occupy a table for 6 hours, they missed 3-4 'turnovers' on your table, and unless you are racking up a bill, your TIP on one bill for 5-6 hours is a slap in the face to your wait staff. This is when a server will have a manager ask you to leave.

I usually ask permission if I know it might be an issue then multiply the TIP for every 2 hours I stay there. So if I am there for 6 hours with back to back football games, they may get a 50-60% tip, and they appreciate it as a table which doesn't need attention but doesn't screw them is a welcome site to a server.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

There are people straight up in this thread that is telling people they should not play at all if they don't paint, and that stores should outright ban them otherwise.

No. No one is saying that. They are talking in context of the thread... About gaming in a public space. I don't think anyone is saying "don't play anywhere ever with Unpainted minis. I know what you do in your bedroom!!! "

Context is vital here.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

Yeah its a ridiculous argument, frankly I'm stunned that the thread has dragged on this long.

The vast majority of people clearly don't have an issue with the whole thing, its a playful rule to give a minor incentive to crack on with an integral part of the wider hobby (painting) and would probably make the game a little more interesting if you both took a couple of unpainted units.

And I'm not an avid painter, I just can't believe how many proper whinging fethers frequent the boards. A small rule meant to be taken in good spirit, and you would think that the manager had been sniffing solvents and frottering himself against the back of a child's skull when he was browsing a codex.

As always, just stick with my rule. Namely, the people that drip endlessly and boo-hoo about everyone and everything, and like throwing the word "entitled" around, are likely the entitled whiny fethers in the first place.

Paint your models, don't paint your models, but please, don't bore the tits off me whinging about such a miniscule issue. I mean, feth me, theres a war on, everyone is in the poor-house, Africa is fethed and Egypts on fire, and we have this level of outrage over such a tiny fething issue?

I'm amazed that people think that those that persue their hobby in the manner that it is suppossed to be done, are elitist. Miniatures are made to be painted.

They must get very angsty against golfers who use proper golf balls.

When I was a GW Manager no unpainted figures were allowed in games. As it should be. No one had a problem with it back then and it encouraged painting.

I think the problem is people want everything now and can't wait.

Wargaming is not, and never has been a hobby of instant gratification. You want that, buy a computer game or pre-painted games. Its a hobby to be savoured and enjoyed. One that rewards what you put in.

Either that or those that don't paint are just lazy. That should set the cat among the pigeons...

To argue that those who undertake the hobby in its stated 'correct' form are elitist is a bit daft really. Makes it all sound like excuses... If you want to play with stuff that is all the same bland colour, go for it. Just don't expect a venue marketing the game to like it, as they showcase the entire hobby, and don't expect those who do invest the time to want to play you.

Big P wrote:
I'm amazed that people think that those that persue their hobby in the manner that it is suppossed to be done, are elitist. Miniatures are made to be painted.

They must get very angsty against golfers who use proper golf balls.

When I was a GW Manager no unpainted figures were allowed in games. As it should be. No one had a problem with it back then and it encouraged painting.

I think the problem is people want everything now and can't wait.

Wargaming is not, and never has been a hobby of instant gratification. You want that, buy a computer game or pre-painted games. Its a hobby to be savoured and enjoyed. One that rewards what you put in.

Either that or those that don't paint are just lazy. That should set the cat among the pigeons...

To argue that those who undertake the hobby in its stated 'correct' form are elitist is a bit daft really. Makes it all sound like excuses... If you want to play with stuff that is all the same bland colour, go for it. Just don't expect a venue marketing the game to like it, as they showcase the entire hobby, and don't expect those who do invest the time to want to play you.

That was a way better way of putting things than I used.

Again as stated alot earlier in the threads,

Old rule: no grey mini's allowed at a gw table.

New rule: You can play with unpainted mini's but you have a slight disadvantage in CC

As far as i'm concerned, the unpainted posters on here should love that rule and be quiet , as it means they can play on an awesome GW terrain board, with unpainted mini's. As opposed to the old days, where you wouldn't be allowed to play at all.

I just see it as a fun rule to encourage painters and nothing to get into a fuss over.

And I'm behind the WAAAGH! rule 100%.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

Again with the "type of people". I really don't understand how having a painted army makes you a more likeable opponent. From the insinuations thrown around this thread my dislike of this rule makes me Satan incarnate, yet I tend to play with painted miniatures. I just don't like some one telling me that I can't play with grey fairly when I want.

 mattyrm wrote:

Paint your models, don't paint your models, but please, don't bore the tits off me whinging about such a miniscule issue. I mean, feth me, theres a war on, everyone is in the poor-house, Africa is fethed and Egypts on fire, and we have this level of outrage over such a tiny fething issue?

So bored that you can't stand to step away from the the thread. Makes sense.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

Again with the "type of people". I really don't understand how having a painted army makes you a more likeable opponent. From the insinuations thrown around this thread my dislike of this rule makes me Satan incarnate, yet I tend to play with painted miniatures. I just don't like some one telling me that I can't play with grey fairly when I want.

Oh so its an imagined slight then.

Always the best ones to get upset about.

No one has been told they can not play with anything, but at a store somewhere far from you they would like (but not require) players to paint their minis. The barstards!

Yep....I can totally see your point.

 notprop wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

Again with the "type of people". I really don't understand how having a painted army makes you a more likeable opponent. From the insinuations thrown around this thread my dislike of this rule makes me Satan incarnate, yet I tend to play with painted miniatures. I just don't like some one telling me that I can't play with grey fairly when I want.

Oh so its an imagined slight then.

Always the best ones to get upset about.

No one has been told they can not play with anything, but at a store somewhere far from you they would like (but not require) players to paint their minis. The barstards!

Yep....I can totally see your point.

I'd say that stating people with unpainted miniatures are an undesirable crowd which one can derive pleasure from avoiding is more than an "imagined slight".
And no, they aren't bastards, they're just a store that I would never play at.

Well for me, anyone that plays 40k is worth avoiding...

Thats no imagined slight. That game is generally one long arguement from what I have seen lately! This thread kinda backs that up...

And yes I am having a joke... Mostly.

Though I still avoid 40k!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

No, not at all. I'm saying that I don't want to play against people who do not paint there minis. I don't see that as "entitled". I have every right to chose to play or not play who I want. As do you. What is "entitled" is saying other people must play against my untainted minis (or even painted minis. If someone had a fully pained force and demanded people play against them that would be the same).

And elitist? Saying "I'm only playing against GD level painting is elitist." Same as saying " I'm not playing against forces that don't follow the FOC" is not elitist but saying "I'm only playing against competative army's" is. People have every right to play a force just made up of HS if they want, but don't be shocked when someone says thats not aloud here. To take the phrase "elitist" back to its earlyer meaning, in FPS's, being elitist is to say "I only play on a team with players with a high ranking" saying "I'm not playing with you because your idea of fun is to get killed as many times as you can" is not. And being entitled in that context would be the guy who likes to rack up the most deaths saying "you have to play with me. I paid for my game and my XBL account".

Oh, and BTW, I have no problem with people being elitist sometimes as long as they are not a jerk about it. I am not a brilliant player and sometimes people say to me "sorry Steve, I'm testing out a tournament list. I'd rather not play someone I will roflstomp".

When 40k was a skirmish game, with few models. Asking for a fully painted army was not unreasonable.
When an army can be as many as 200+ models, you need to give an take a little.
You can't expect someone to paint all their army straight away.
I would never refuse to play a game of 40k, because an army was not painted.
Why miss out on what could be a good game.


Restaurant I was once asked to leave because the guy thought I wouldn't be able to afford the prices. (leather motorcycle jacket tassels, badges, jeans etc)
So I put all my cards on the table. No problem

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

Again with the "type of people". I really don't understand how having a painted army makes you a more likeable opponent. From the insinuations thrown around this thread my dislike of this rule makes me Satan incarnate, yet I tend to play with painted miniatures. I just don't like some one telling me that I can't play with grey fairly when I want.

You can play with gray models whenever you want to. You just will be at a disadvantage if you do it at that store. I don't recall ever saying people with unpainted models are "satan incarnate", but I stand by my statement that I prefer playing against painted armies instead of unpainted. Anything that potentially skews the ratio of painted to unpainted in favor of my preferred gaming environment is always going to be a positive thing in my own humble opinion.

 loki old fart wrote:
When 40k was a skirmish game, with few models. Asking for a fully painted army was not unreasonable.
When an army can be as many as 200+ models, you need to give an take a little.
You can't expect someone to paint all their army straight away.
I would never refuse to play a game of 40k, because an army was not painted.
Why miss out on what could be a good game.

TBH I think most people feel the same For me it's not really about part painted army's that are being worked on, but about grey plastic that is never going to be painted. It's just that it started with some unpainted to use new minis and has creeped to never going to be painted.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

Again with the "type of people". I really don't understand how having a painted army makes you a more likeable opponent. From the insinuations thrown around this thread my dislike of this rule makes me Satan incarnate, yet I tend to play with painted miniatures. I just don't like some one telling me that I can't play with grey fairly when I want.

You can play with gray models whenever you want to. You just will be at a disadvantage if you do it at that store. I don't recall ever saying people with unpainted models are "satan incarnate", but I stand by my statement that I prefer playing against painted armies instead of unpainted. Anything that potentially skews the ratio of painted to unpainted in favor of my preferred gaming environment is always going to be a positive thing in my own humble opinion.

I agree with this entirely, at the end of the day, you gotta do what you enjoy and where you enjoy doing it. I'm sorry if you misconstrued your comments as hostile, it's rather easy to do when many of the other voices in the room are.

That sign is specific to your store.

Other stores don't have that issue, they have the issue of lost gaming and hobby space, and not really wanting people in the store painting up armies. A unit or squad, maybe, but you are expected at this point to suck it, and if you paint them, you paint them at your house. As playing your army- people are playing a game with an unwritten rule that your playing YOUR army. that honestly deems painting them up.

I've been to a couple of GW stores in my travels past couple of weeks, and they have been pretty good to let you paint at that little table, but you are expected to give new players a spot so they can learn to paint the sample figure, and learn the "GW way to paint your lickies and chewies." Table for painting is around a 4X4 table, or a 4X3 and a half with 2 to 4 stools. Paint and gak is there for the use, but the new player walking in off the street is the one that gets priority, and they use the paints and such to paint the sample guy.

The stores are honestly pretty dry, but you can have a little leeway if you don't go all postal on there. Mind your manners, and you can BS with the gamers and store workers, but when sales time comes you are expected to STFU and keep your opinions to yourself- as well as common courtesy to let the workers do their expected shilling.

Honestly?
The stores are too darned small, and they lack gaming space on the whole. Past couple of weekends in two different states I've seen guys showed up and they played games on two tables. these were usually multiplayer games, and the demo table in the doorway has all of the boxed games on it and the demos are on a small 2X2 board per game system.

The hours and limited time gives issue to painting armies in one go.

There is no entitlement in the stores, by the way.

You get to play, maybe. No one cares if its fully painted, though.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
I agree with this entirely, at the end of the day, you gotta do what you enjoy and where you enjoy doing it. I'm sorry if you misconstrued your comments as hostile, it's rather easy to do when many of the other voices in the room are.

Nah, I get it. It's all good! I'm not going to act like I've never played with an unpainted model, so I think we really agree about this more than we disagree. When I say "this type of person" I'm simply referring the status of their models as regards painting, and not making any kind of character judgments.

To give you a little insight on why I feel the way I do about this, I'm the kind of guy that likes to take a lot of pictures when I play and do battle reports or just post them up on Facebook or Instagram so I try to maximize the amount of time I spend playing games with painted armies on badass looking terrain. Luckily X-Wing is pre-painted so lately this is a much, much easier proposition.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
I agree with this entirely, at the end of the day, you gotta do what you enjoy and where you enjoy doing it. I'm sorry if you misconstrued your comments as hostile, it's rather easy to do when many of the other voices in the room are.

Nah, I get it. It's all good! I'm not going to act like I've never played with an unpainted model, so I think we really agree about this more than we disagree. When I say "this type of person" I'm simply referring the status of their models as regards painting, and not making any kind of character judgments.

To give you a little insight on why I feel the way I do about this, I'm the kind of guy that likes to take a lot of pictures when I play and do battle reports or just post them up on Facebook or Instagram so I try to maximize the amount of time I spend playing games with painted armies on badass looking terrain. Luckily X-Wing is pre-painted so lately this is a much, much easier proposition.

Nice! Do you have somewhere that you post battle reps, like here on Dakka? I'd like to check em out sometime. I definitely agree that battle reps are more enjoyable painted.

I'm similar - take a look at the Necromunda stuff in my Sig.

Curiously having just taken up X-Wing in the last fortnight I felt weirdly uncomfortable about using pre-paints for the first time. A good game so i'll get over it.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

Nice! Do you have somewhere that you post battle reps, like here on Dakka? I'd like to check em out sometime. I definitely agree that battle reps are more enjoyable painted.

I just realized as I reviewed these that I really, really miss playing 40k all of a sudden! These are kind of old, they span the transition of the old 'cron codex to the new for example, since I haven't had a lot of time to play lately:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/recentTopics/showTopicsByUser/0/23223/17.page