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Smite actually doesn't do a whole lot of work for me. I think that's more because I tend to use my Exalted Sorcerer (I've been running with only 1) to cast actual spells; Prescience on SOT is very good, and Warptime is always powerful. Therefore my smites tend to go to the Rubrics & SOT, where they're not nearly as powerful, and actually more dangerous. I hate losing the aspiring sorcerer to a perils roll, because it then blows up more of his unit.

 Arkaine wrote:

 alleus wrote:
Right. I did not know that everything needs the Thousand Sons keyword in order to benefit from legion traits. I mean, we can't be 100% sure it will be like that, but looking at the Space Marine codex, that is the case.

Oh well, until the codex comes out my list will work, albeit not all units will benefit from Thousand Sons abilities. Hopefully the codex will have some nice stuff to compensate for not being able to take FW models.

You actually can run a number of FW models because they are granted the right to take the Thousand Sons keyword in one of the FAQs. To benefit from Thousand Sons legion rules, you only need a detachment where everything has the Thousand Sons keyword.

Not all, but most.
Rapier for example cant be 1ksons

So, I'm trying to come up with a way to run Thousand Sons with Magnus in a casual setting. A strong list that can be countered by armies other than the top of the top.

Ahriman
Daemon Prince on foot with Talons
2x10 man Rubricae with 2 flamers and the Soulreaper in Rhinos
20 man Tzangor with CC
5 SOT with flamer
Predator annihalator
Magnus
Comes right to about 2k

Im thinking that is elite enough, with drawbacks and strengths to be a cool list. Thoughts?

Magnus and Casual Setting do not mix.

So looking at the new Codex and one unit stands out like a sore thumb for me: Obliterators. My god, they've got a HUGE buff. They're now assualt 4. Double the shots for the same price.

1kSons have a real problem with anti-tank and these guys seem to be absolutely perfect for solving that problem, at 190pts, deepstriking, fairly tough, ranging from S7, -1, D1 to S9, -3, D3, with 12 shots per unit.

I know they're not 1kSons, but a seperate spearhead detachment, with a termi lord dropping in for the rerolls should solve a lot of our problems. THe only problem for me is converting them to look in line with our aesthetics... What do you all think?

Fluff wise, how could you fit Oblits into a 1k sons listd? I'm not big on the mercenary route either.

Post-Heresy the Pyrae Cult was non for controlling Robots of the Legio Cybernetica

So no problem for Oblits, just make them more like Daemon Engines and not mutated Techmarines.

 kodos wrote:
Post-Heresy the Pyrae Cult was non for controlling Robots of the Legio Cybernetica

So no problem for Oblits, just make them more like Daemon Engines and not mutated Techmarines.

Well, I'm not very good at converting, only painting. But I guess I can use that excuse

 BoomWolf wrote:
Magnus and Casual Setting do not mix.

I would disagree, facing magnus is very doable in a meta that isnt playing the top tier lists, but still builds strong narrative themed lists. I see where you are coming from though, he is tough, but only a quarter of the list, the rest is surmountable I believe. If it ends up being too strong when i test it, I will play it in tournaments and lose. Im trying to find a middle ground. Guilliman can be played casually but strong. Back him up with Tac marines instead of predators and suddenly he is robbed of alot of his strengths

Primarchs are not casual. They have no direct counters and they beat the stuffing out of everything. They're merely bombs that you drop on the field that attract bullets and generally the first player to lose his will be at the disadvantage. They're quite different from say a tank that is weak to lascannons or light infantry that are weak to flamers. Know what Primarchs are weak to?

Point Blank Annihilation. Also Mortal Wounds.

Got new stuff of my Thousand Sons up in my painting blog in my sig. Take a look and lemme know of any ideas. Currently working on Helbrute, Ahriman, and Heldrake.

So, I got a friendly game in over the weekend, and got a chance to field some of my new units. We played the Week 4 Konor scenario, PL 60. My opponent fielded Harlequin.

My TS force:
1x Exalted Sorcerer (Warlord, on foot, Prescience and Warptime)
1x Demon Prince (Wings, dual claw)
1x Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnaught (C-Beam Cannon, Chain Claw, Flamer)
5x Scarab Occult Terminators (Soulreaper Cannon)
10x Rubrics (Soulreaper, 5 Flamers, 3 Bolters, Flame Pistol)
1x Rhino (Combi-Bolter, Havoc Launcher)

Harlequin army:
1x Solitaire (Warlord)
1x Troup Master
1x Shadowseer
5x Harlequin Troupe
5x Harlequin Troupe
5x Harlequin Troupe
3x Starweaver
1x Visarch
All the Harlequin units had a 4+ invuln, which would prove amazingly annoying.

Deployment: 3 objectives were spread out along my side of the board in terrain. I deployed with DP on far left, Rubrics in the rhino near center, sorcerer at center in a tower (this was a mistake, as my units were outside his 6" bubble), SOT in the right third in cover, with the dreadnaught behind them. My opponent started with each Starweaver loaded with a harlequin troupe and a character each, and Solitaire on foot, and got first turn.

Opponent Turn 1: Opponent flew his Starweavers (Left, 2 and 3) up the field, and ran the Solitaire up to the DP, going for close combat. A little bit of shooting happened, with a wound off the DP. He then charged it, and did no wounds. I attacked back, and took off 4/5 wounds.

My Turn 1: I unloaded the Rubrics to be within 6" of the left Starweaver (for the flame pistol). Psychic saw smites go onto Left Starweaver and Starweaver 2. Prescience went onto the SOT. I had the rubrics shoot flame into the Left Starweaver, taking it down. It then exploded, taking out 1 rubric, killing 2 of the Harlequin embarked, taking one wound off the embarked Visarch, and taking the last wound off the Solitaire. Good work! Rubrics then continued to shoot, killing off 2 more of the harlequin. SOT then started shooting into Starweaver 2, taking it down (this one didn't' blow up). The Contemptor then unleashed the C-Beam Cannon, and it hit! If you're not familiar with this weapon, if it kills a unit, then it does 2d6 additional hits (so they hit automatically, if I'm correct) to the same unit, at S4 AP0 D1 (iirc). I rolled well and took out an additional 2 harlequin. The Rhino failed to hit anything. The DP then charged into the Visarch, taking him off the table before he could attack.

Opponent Turn 2: Harlequin were unloaded from Starweaver 3, then all units on the right side of the board decided to shoot into my SOT, taking out 4/5. They then charged in, taking the remaining one out. Nothing was within range to charge the Dreadnaught.

My Turn 2: Rubrics got back into the rhino, and moved more toward the center of the table , where the action was. The sorcerer came down off his tower. Smite killed off the remaining harlequin on the left of the board, and took off the last of a second unit. The C-Beam cannon and flamer failed to hit anything. The Dreadnaught charges in, fails to kill one (that 4+ invuln), and is cut down by the flurry of harlequin attacks.

Opponent Turn 3: The Shadowseer gets off its spell, and I promptly beat the roll-off. Movement takes the harlequin army into the sorcerer. Shooting goes into the rhino and sorcerer, taking the sorcerer low, and charges in and melee finish him off.

My Turn 3: Rubrics unload, in flamer range. Smite from the DP finishes off Starweaver 3 (it blows up, and hits the DP). The Rubric aspiring then casts smite... and perils on a double 1. He blows up, and takes 2 more rubrics with him. The explosion then does 2 damage to the rhino, 1 to each of the harlequin characters, and leaves the harlequin troupe at 2 members. Definitely the moment of the game (and way more damage than Smite could do)! Shooting then kills off the remaining harlequin troupe, leaving the characters. DP fails his charge. The rhino sits there as a box.

Opponent Turn 4: Two Smites kill the DP (Tzeentch was pleased at that). Shooting kills off a few more Rubrics, then a charge and melee takes out the rest.

My Turn 4: We're just having fun at this point. Rhino attempts to shoot; does 1 damage. Charges! Doesn't hit.

Opponent Turn 5: Shooting and melee finish off the rhino.

It's been a few days since this game, so some things are a little fuzzy.

All in all, a very fun game, where it seemed to go back and fourth a lot. The rubrics didn't move a whole lot this game (since it was a defensive game), so Tzaangor may have been a better choice than a Rhino. The C-Beam cannon proved very strong, and I'll likely take it in the future, though I do have a Melta option for the dreadnaught as well (magnets). My opponent was definitely scared of it. SOT weren't' as effective this game as usual, due to the strength of Harlequin ranged weapons, and that all my AP weapons don't matter at all against an army that only uses invuln saves. The DP was a beast, and made back his points with utility and (essentially) taking out 2 characters by himself. The Exalted Sorcerer once again proved not to be worth his weight, though I didn't have him positioned well enough to take care of his bubble. I don't think his reroll 1's on invun saves would've come in handy this game to be honest (I think I rolled a single 1 on those). I think expanded spell lists, as well as some TS only spells will help them. If it'll be enough to take them instead/in addition to Ahriman, we'll have to see.

I can see quickly one mistake you seem to have made. When a transport explodes and the occupants roll the bad result they are dead. Not 1 mortal wound, straight dead. So if the Visarch was embarked and he rolled badly, goodbye Visarch.

I'm still building my TS army and I've been thinking a lot about Tzaangors lately.

How do you think a full unit (30) would fare with Weaver of fate cast upon them and a sorcerer (or Ahriman) closeby to re-roll 1s ?

They even seem a good target for Prescience actually, since 60 attacks that hit on 2s with AP-1 could break almost anything.

Thoughts ?

 Nym wrote:
I'm still building my TS army and I've been thinking a lot about Tzaangors lately.

How do you think a full unit (30) would fare with Weaver of fate cast upon them and a sorcerer (or Ahriman) closeby to re-roll 1s ?

They even seem a good target for Prescience actually, since 60 attacks that hit on 2s with AP-1 could break almost anything.

Thoughts ?

.58 save rate on a unit that costs 210 points. If you want to use it as an offensive weapon it's decent. If your looking for a tar pit Rubrics are better you can get almost a squad of 10 for the same points which will have either a 2+ or 3++ or 4++, depending on AP and Damage. If your looking for CC punch SOT are better for 17 points more. Tzzangors are good for dealing with hordes they have the number of attacks and AP -1 makes them very good for removong swaths of cheap models. Problem is the moment you stick them on the table your opponent has something to shoot at that dosen't get a 2+ save against damage 1 attacks. Having them on the table can be a huge boon but can also be a huge liabilty.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
If your looking for a tar pit Rubrics are better you can get almost a squad of 10 for the same points which will have either a 2+ or 3++ or 4++, depending on AP and Damage

Actually it seems to me that Tzaangors are much more resistant. Even without Weaver of fate in the equation, only an Exhalted Sorcerer's aura, they're somewhat equal, point-for-point.

Let's consider 10 Rubrics (225pts with just Inferno Bolters) against 30 Tzaangors (220pts with Instrument). Exhalted Sorcerer is around for both units.

Against AP0 and Damage 1, no Weaver of fates :
10 Rubrics die to 57 wounds.
30 Tzaaangors die to 49 wounds.

Against AP0 and Damage 1, with Weaver of fates :
10 Rubrics die to 57 wounds
30 Tzaangors die to 72 wounds.

Against anything with a higher AP (or Damage), the difference gets bigger and bigger in favor of Tzaangors.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
If your looking for CC punch SOT are better for 17 points more.

Tzaangors without any buff output almost 4 times more damage than SOT for the same point cost.

You get 5,7 Tzaangors for 1 Scarab Occult Terminator. They do 1,9 wounds to MEQ while SOT deal 0,55.
What SOT do get however is utility, which Tzaangors lack.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Problem is the moment you stick them on the table your opponent has something to shoot at that dosen't get a 2+ save against damage 1 attacks.

As shown above, it's actually better to aim these damage 1 attacks at Rubrics than it is to aim them at Tzaangors, especially if they come with an AP value of -1 or better.

I think one of the things you fail to consider is the concentration of force.

Bringing all 30 tazzangors into relevant range is not as simple as bringing 10 rubrics, or 5 SOT, due to the space they take on the field.

Having a bigger footprint allows you to influence a greater portion of the game table with the unit, but not with each individual model. an enemy squad may be able to easily engage just a portion of the gors at a time, engaging only a portion of the rubric or SOT though, is highly unlikely.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I think one of the things you fail to consider is the concentration of force.

That's a good point indeed. Even with 8th edition allowing us to run tightly packed units, 30 Tzaangors occupy at least a 6x5" square. A clever opponent might be able to exploit that.

Fortunately, pile-in moves allow most of these to reach combat if needed and less force concentration doesn't affect their ability to tarpit units.

Small note, but the CSM Instrument of Chaos that Tzaangors use is actually free. Only the chaos daemon version costs 10 points.

 Nym wrote:

Actually it seems to me that Tzaangors are much more resistant. Even without Weaver of fate in the equation, only an Exhalted Sorcerer's aura, they're somewhat equal, point-for-point.

Let's consider 10 Rubrics (225pts with just Inferno Bolters) against 30 Tzaangors (220pts with Instrument). Exhalted Sorcerer is around for both units.

Against AP0 and Damage 1, no Weaver of fates :
10 Rubrics die to 57 wounds.
30 Tzaaangors die to 49 wounds.

Against AP0 and Damage 1, with Weaver of fates :
10 Rubrics die to 57 wounds
30 Tzaangors die to 72 wounds.

Against anything with a higher AP (or Damage), the difference gets bigger and bigger in favor of Tzaangors.

First, 10 Rubrics will die to 60 wounds. And if I apply 2 CP for rerolls on saves that bumps the 10 rubrics up to 72 wounds.

Second, 30 Tzzangors die to about 45 wounds unbuffed, after you cast a spell and keep them inside an aura you can get them up to 72 wounds.

Third, your relying on a spell for a large portion of your surviveablity(.38 to .58 save rate) which if denied or fails means your as good as dead.

Forth, Your missing a very important factor with the Tzzangors. Morale, if you lose any more then 7 Tzzangors in a single turn, which is not hard to do, your losing what ever the dice roll is so even 2 over that and you looking at almost half the squad.

 Nym wrote:
Tzaangors without any buff output almost 4 times more damage than SOT for the same point cost.

You get 5,7 Tzaangors for 1 Scarab Occult Terminator. They do 1,9 wounds to MEQ while SOT deal 0,55.
What SOT do get however is utility, which Tzaangors lack.

Tzzangors put out 4 times the attacks

Yes Tzzangors are good for killing horde units which is what I said. They have a lot of attacks. They are not good for taking out large tough (T5-7) models with good saves (2+/3+). That is what I meant by punch.

 Nym wrote:
As shown above, it's actually better to aim these damage 1 attacks at Rubrics than it is to aim them at Tzaangors, especially if they come with an AP value of -1 or better.

Except its just not. Stock 1 rubric marine will die after 6 wounds. Tzzangors in comparison will fail 4 saves of those 6 wounds thats 28 to 20 points. Even after the spell its a 1 to 3 ratio, 20 to 21 points. Your adding 120+ points worth of support to the Tzzangors and saying that the Tzzangors are better. Except with 120 more points I could have a 15 man squad of Rubricae needing 90 wounds to bring down stock compared to the 72 wounds the 30 man Tzzangor squad needs with added support.

Erm, note that in a 10 Rubric squad, one is a sorcerer that has only the basic 5+ save. No All is Dust for that guy and his armor is still a 3+.

As for Rubrics vs Tzaangors, the advantage to taking Tzaangors is that they don't care about AP weapons while the Rubrics do, don't care about multi-damage weapons while the Rubrics do, don't care about being stuck in close combat like the Rubrics do, and they move slightly faster too thanks to speed and instrument.

In this edition of "BubbleWrap is King", having some melee-oriented guys protecting the Rubrics is worthwhile. People are going to bring AP anyway and the Rubric saves will start suffering next to the Tzaangors. Their job is simply to keep the melee Berzerkers and Assault Marines and Tyranids off the Rubrics while you smite spam everything of importance. When forced into combat, which can happen to slow moving Rubrics, the Tzaangors will clearly be superior with extra attacks, more models throwing attacks, and AP on their weapons. Plus Tzaangors are not Psykers which negates a lot of the anti-psyker crap that exists.

And don't forget the number 1 weakness facing Rubrics, which they themselves love to abuse: Smite spam. Kill a 7 pt model or kill a 20 pt model?

Giving your opponent an extra target to shoot at can be worth it to have these guys defending your main lineup. Throw +1 save and Warptime on them and they'll be locking things in combat easily with the fortitude of enhanced Brimstones and the lethality of enhanced CSMs for the price of enhanced Cultists.

You are wasting your +1save and warptime spells on freaking gors if you do that....

You only got one of each spell. you can't afford to go willy-nilly and just toss them on your chaff units.

 Arkaine wrote:
Erm, note that in a 10 Rubric squad, one is a sorcerer that has only the basic 5+ save. No All is Dust for that guy and his armor is still a 3+.

As for Rubrics vs Tzaangors, the advantage to taking Tzaangors is that they don't care about AP weapons while the Rubrics do, don't care about multi-damage weapons while the Rubrics do, don't care about being stuck in close combat like the Rubrics do, and they move slightly faster too thanks to speed and instrument.

In this edition of "BubbleWrap is King", having some melee-oriented guys protecting the Rubrics is worthwhile. People are going to bring AP anyway and the Rubric saves will start suffering next to the Tzaangors. Their job is simply to keep the melee Berzerkers and Assault Marines and Tyranids off the Rubrics while you smite spam everything of importance. When forced into combat, which can happen to slow moving Rubrics, the Tzaangors will clearly be superior with extra attacks, more models throwing attacks, and AP on their weapons. Plus Tzaangors are not Psykers which negates a lot of the anti-psyker crap that exists.

And don't forget the number 1 weakness facing Rubrics, which they themselves love to abuse: Smite spam. Kill a 7 pt model or kill a 20 pt model?

Giving your opponent an extra target to shoot at can be worth it to have these guys defending your main lineup. Throw +1 save and Warptime on them and they'll be locking things in combat easily with the fortitude of enhanced Brimstones and the lethality of enhanced CSMs for the price of enhanced Cultists.

In some cases yes but he is talking about using a 30 man squad as an offensive tool. I always run at least 2 squads in my armies but the serve as speed bumps for melee focused armies trying to get that Turn 1 charge off.

Dont get me wrong they can be quite useful but 30 man squads are just not viabke right now. Too much loss from morale not to mention it gives your opponet something to shoot his Lasguns/Bolters at which would otherwise be fired at units that would giggle and keep walking.

Its not that bubble wrap is king its that people haven't realized that there are multiple ways of dealing with the charges.

I've been struggling mightily against vehicle heavy lists and not sure what our best AV is. Anyone have good suggestions for what they've been using to deal with big tanks and superheavies, and how many of them I should be fielding?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
First, 10 Rubrics will die to 60 wounds. And if I apply 2 CP for rerolls on saves that bumps the 10 rubrics up to 72 wounds.

A Arkaine pointed out, the Sorcerer doesn't have All Is Dust, hence the 57 figure. And I highly doubt spending CP to reroll Rubrics' saves is wise, considering how vital they are to our psychic phase.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Third, your relying on a spell for a large portion of your surviveablity(.38 to .58 save rate) which if denied or fails means your as good as dead.

Good point. I always forget about denying. That's one thing I must keep in mind...

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Forth, Your missing a very important factor with the Tzzangors. Morale, if you lose any more then 7 Tzzangors in a single turn, which is not hard to do, your losing what ever the dice roll is so even 2 over that and you looking at almost half the squad.

Hmm that's right. It's probably the biggest weakness here. Don't we have any mean to counter that ?

 Nym wrote:
They are not good for taking out large tough (T5-7) models with good saves (2+/3+). That is what I meant by punch.

Actually, Tzaangors are still 3 to 4 times more point efficient at killing T5-7 models with good saves. I'm affraid Scarab Occult Terminators are just bad, offensive-wise.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Your adding 120+ points worth of support to the Tzzangors and saying that the Tzzangors are better.

I'm not really adding anything actually. The Sorcerer (Ahriman in my case) will be there wether I play Tzaangors or not. They're mandatory for us. It was just a question of "what's the best unit to buff".

Anyway thanks for your input, you convinced me. Denies affect all units the same so I don't thing it's that much of a problem, but as you said, Morale really kills these guys. :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arachnofiend wrote:
I've been struggling mightily against vehicle heavy lists and not sure what our best AV is. Anyone have good suggestions for what they've been using to deal with big tanks and superheavies, and how many of them I should be fielding?

If you stay "in faction", 2 Predators are probably the most efficient (and reliable) anti-tank unit we have access to.

If you don't care about staying "in faction", 2 units of Obliterators are incredible for roughly the same point-cost as a 2 Predators.

If I remember right, a Helbrute with Fist and Scourge is also *really* good at killing AV, but only in Close combat of course...

Arachnofiend wrote:
I've been struggling mightily against vehicle heavy lists and not sure what our best AV is. Anyone have good suggestions for what they've been using to deal with big tanks and superheavies, and how many of them I should be fielding?

I prefer smite personally. The DP is also a good option hes quite good at punching things to death. Exalted sorcerers can also work well. This assuming you can get these guys in position to do thier job.

I have heard the Laspred is also pretty good espically if you can afford a buff bot lord to just stand near him.

I found helbrute to be also quite decent at taking out enemy vehicles, though my experience with them is rather limited.

When in doubt, spam smite.

Well holy crap our army just got way better... those new psyker spells are amazing. 3++ for Magnus now rerolling ones! He is going to be waaaaaaaaaay more resilient. Death Hex! Diabolical Strength for our Demon Princes... exciting times

Anyone give these a try yet? I'm excited to hear how they are doing.

In regards to the 'All is Dust' ability on Rubrics, at least according to the enhanced ibook Index: Chaos (as I don't have the new Chaos codex, and don't have the hard copy book on me at the moment), it reads

"Add 1 to the saving throws for the unit if the attack has a damage characteristic of 1. In addition, the -1 modifier to hit rolls for moving and shooting with a Heavy weapon does not apply to this unit."

I never specifically mentions 'Rubric Marines' in it at all, so I would argue that it applies to the Aspiring Sorcerer as well. In addition, the entire unit has the keyword 'Rubric Marines', and it can be argued that on older revisions that 'All is Dust' specifically mentioned Rubric Marines or Scarab Occult Terminators, that the ability specifically applied to the associated Keyword, and thus affected the entire unit, including the Aspiring Sorcerer.

Thoughts? Or has the wording changed again in Codex: Chaos Space Marines?

In the codex...

Rubric marines is the name of the unit, and the ability affects rubric marines.

Each individual rubricae is called a rubric marine. So some ambiguity, but i think it's the whole unit.