Switch Theme:

Smoke and Mirrors? Or has [GW] really learned their lesson?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel




Apologies MDG.
I should have defined what I meant by 'GW collectors' .
I was referring to customers that mainly collect GW models for aesthetic reasons.And are not that bothered about game play.

Aesthetics are subjective,and so if you think a model is 'cool enough' to be worth the money, you will pay the amount asked for it.But other opinions may vary.

Minature collectors/painters buy models/minatures from a wide variety of companies.

'GW collectors' mainly or exclusively collect GW minatures.(And may not actually bother assembling or painting them in some cases. )

Gamers on the other hand DO care about game play, and well defined rule sets.And often view minatures for the game as playing pieces.So no matter how cool the model looks, if it has no value in a table top game they can not justify buying it.

I am not saying there are not enough GW collectors to keep GW plc going.Or GW plc has to attract gamers and customers from the wider war gaming market.

But the lessons learned by gaming companies, seem to be ignored by GW plc.





   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Not sure that really holds up though. I mean, just a glance at YMDC kind of shows 40k and AoS players both care about the rules.

That the rules are a wee bit shonky doesn't stop them playing.

Purely personal opinion, for me it's the minis that lead my interest. Even if a game has the best regarded rules, if the models don't appeal I see no point in picking it up. Some general aesthetics leave me cold.

   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel




The YMDC forum is just asking for common/officially accepted ways to interpret poorly defined rules within the rule sets.
(Which should not be there, for the most part, if GW actually bothered with professional levels of proof reading and editing. )

Its like properly proof read novels should have correct spelling and grammar .

It does detract from the narrative of the novel a bit if there are some spelling mistakes and grammatical errors scattered about.


In the same way a few poorly worded rules could detract from a well developed game play a bit.

However the game play is more akin to the story arcs in the novel. Its what keeps you interested long term .

AFAIK everyone gets hooked by the history/background and look of the particular minatures first.

However, the depth and diversity of the game play keeps gamers interested.Finding out all the different ways your force can work with different tactical options, to combat different forces, and play styles.

Its apparent GW like to keep the games tactically shallow (in game options) ,and strategically deep (pre game options) to promote more minature sales.

EG in general war games, units can perform several tactical roles on the table top.

In GW games a unit would be given a special rule to make it suited to one specific role.(Or developed to be a 'one trick pony'.)
And so to achieve a separate battle field role a completely different unit with a separate special rule, (or development focus,) would be needed.

As a gamer I might not like the look of the minatures, but I can recommend the game to some one who does like that visual style, if the rules are good.

GW just has the initial appeal of the art,(narrative and sculpt style.) With not a lot else to back it up.(Comparatively poorly defined rules and shallow game play.)




This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/11 18:36:02


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Think we'll have to agree to disagree there.

Something else I've just noticed....a reduction in Ltd Edition models.

Given my Facebook group (link in the wig), this is something I've been keeping better tabs on of late.

Before when GW did a celebration model of any stripe, a store might have a dozen on the peg. And if we were lucky, one could also order them in from the web store.

Which was.....not great. Typically, Your Unfriendly Neighbourhood Scalper would swoop in and buy up all the stock, before jacking it on eBay for triple the price.

Understandably, that got up people's noses. And rightfully so. With the exception of the 'odd choice' Primaris currently available, the models were desirable pieces.

But perhaps not anymore. Specifically, Store Anniversary Goodies seem to be a limitless supply at each event, and people can order as many as they want (pretty sure I hold the record for the Primaris Captain though...). And going on Warhammer Edinburgh's recent FB, that largesse has now been extended to the Eavy Metal dice (they roll beautifully!), brush case (erm.....yay? I guess), the Art Book, and Jes Goodwin's Eldar Sketchbook. All available for order in unlimited quantities.

Was I still living there, not only would it be 1991, but also I'd be up with a Group Order

And that to me is definitely a positive. Could this signal the end of enforced scarcity? Could it now just be a matter of joining a certain FB group and getting what it is you need?

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Something else I've just noticed....a reduction in Ltd Edition models.
After the last one I think they've run out of ideas...

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Something else I've just noticed....a reduction in Ltd Edition models.
After the last one I think they've run out of ideas...


Do not mock Veteran Brother Genericus. He tried his very best to appeal to a hip, more modern crowd.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 02:45:59


Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel




@MDG.
Not exactly sure what we are disagreeing on?

You are not a gamer first and foremost,are you?
You are mainly interested in the minatures like practically all GW customers. And you play 40k/AOS despite the crap rules like most GW customers.(If they play at all.)
So we have different perspective on what makes purchases value for money to us.

My point is GW are not appealing to gamers who care about the quality of the rules and game play.
This is not GWs core demographic.(Lots of game companies have sprung up to cater to these customers.)

GW corporate deem it too much effort to bother with actual game development and appear happy to just target 'collectors.'
My point was GW should have learned that great rules add value to a minature range,Poor rules remove value from a minature range.

Gaming companies do not have to wast over half their gross profit on a chain of B&M stores.
Great game play sells their product by word of mouth.The more players having a positive experience, the more people they tell about it.
The higher volume of sales,increases the profit off each minature sold.(Plastic manufacture rewards economies of scale.)






   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




Lanrak wrote:

Gaming companies do not have to wast over half their gross profit on a chain of B&M stores.
Great game play sells their product by word of mouth.The more players having a positive experience, the more people they tell about it.
The higher volume of sales,increases the profit off each minature sold.(Plastic manufacture rewards economies of scale.)



Someone has to have those B&M stores, and if it weren't for GW's bricks, most of these gaming companies wouldn't sell gak.

"Great game play sells their product by word of mouth." within a community of people who were brought together by GW games.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






There's definitely that, too.

And how do you think GW supports their own stores expense? Because they close down those that don't turn a profit....

   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






Exactly. The GW stores are a substantial expense but each box of product sold represents substantially more revenue than the same box sold via a 3d party.
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Eastern Fringe

I had a GW trade account around 10 years ago. I had a 35% discount from RRP.

The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Exactly. The GW stores are a substantial expense but each box of product sold represents substantially more revenue than the same box sold via a 3d party.


More revenue, but less profit. Revenue doesn't pay the bills. Profit does.

Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com


https://www.thingiverse.com/KrisWall/about


Completed Trades With: ultraatma 
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

 Kriswall wrote:


More revenue, but less profit. Revenue doesn't pay the bills. Profit does.


Well...actually, revenue is what pays the bills. Profit is what's left over when all the bills are paid. If you're still paying bills with profit, its not really profit.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Blacksails has the right of that one.

And you say more revenue, less profit....take the stores away, and you're looking at a lot less revenue. After all, where's your high street presence to tempt in new and lapsed blood alike?

It's an expensive proposition, sure. But GW are the only one with their own stores, and remain the biggest fish in the market. Now, do you think those two things could be at all linked?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
Exactly. The GW stores are a substantial expense but each box of product sold represents substantially more revenue than the same box sold via a 3d party.


Though this I disagree with.

Over a certain volume of sales in a single store, perhaps.

But, selling to 3rd party actually gives them the best outcome. They're not liable for VAT on those sales, and aren't the one footing the bill for getting it into the grubby mitts of a gamer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/13 14:45:38


   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

What?

VAT liability has absolutely nothing to do with anything. VAT is a cost neutral tax for a business, its passed on to the consumer, and the majority of the accounting in most modern businesses is largely automated, so it doesn't even represent a significant expense in administration.

Selling to a third party does not give them the best outcome, as they're selling it for almost half what they'd sell it for directly, and they're already paying the costs for their own direct channels, whether the sale goes through them or not.

In an ideal world, GW want to sell every item through their website at full RRP, full RRP through their stores is a compromise and selling at wholesale to another retailer the third option, but making something from a wholesale sale is better than not.

And you say more revenue, less profit....take the stores away, and you're looking at a lot less revenue. After all, where's your high street presence to tempt in new and lapsed blood alike?

It's an expensive proposition, sure. But GW are the only one with their own stores, and remain the biggest fish in the market. Now, do you think those two things could be at all linked?


Maybe, but not necessarily. The stores have been cost neutral, give or take, for many of the reports I've taken the trouble to look at over the last few years. Making £5m off £50m turnover without stores or £5m off £100m turnover but having to maintain a whole network of shops (figures example only) is largely moot. The only question is whether the presence of the stores generates sales that would never happen without their visibility, and that's highly debatable and almost unprovable, one way or another.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/13 15:02:08


We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
After all, where's your high street presence to tempt in new and lapsed blood alike?


I don't know? Where is it in the US, where GW has been successful despite GW's own retail stores being so rare and irrelevant that they could disappear overnight and hardly anyone would notice?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

There's no high street here. If there were, the local GW's could not be considered to be on it.

   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






There used to be a "high street" presence in my state; quite a large one, in fact. There were three or so GW stores in malls, with a flagship store in one of the most fancy and expensive malls in the state. All gone now, with only a one man store in a shady part of town to replace them.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There's no high street here. If there were, the local GW's could not be considered to be on it.



This. . . however, in my area, the GWs are definitely present in suburban sprawl. My hangout shop is located in a shopping center with Target and a bunch of other stuff. . .Another near by is in the same lot as an Olive Garden, Chik-Fil-A (unless it's a popeyes. .. chicken place regardlesS), WinCo (grocery chain for those who don't know). . .


But this is probably more due to the decades of the traditional downtown neglect. . .and the recent resurgence being that more of the hipster shops and one-off type shopping.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





morgoth wrote:
Lanrak wrote:

Gaming companies do not have to wast over half their gross profit on a chain of B&M stores.
Great game play sells their product by word of mouth.The more players having a positive experience, the more people they tell about it.
The higher volume of sales,increases the profit off each minature sold.(Plastic manufacture rewards economies of scale.)



Someone has to have those B&M stores, and if it weren't for GW's bricks, most of these gaming companies wouldn't sell gak.

"Great game play sells their product by word of mouth." within a community of people who were brought together by GW games.


Problem, at least in the UK, is that GW went on a fairly successful crusade against smaller FLGS for reasons best known to Kirby and are now stuck with a B&M chain they can't let go of, and are in many cases claustrophobic broom cupboards so not great as play experience sites

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

I'm pretty sure that my "local" GW store (25miles) is run by 1 dude and has the craptastically crappiest hours possible. Theyre only open for 5-6hrs a day, with a 30min lunch break thrown in. I honestly don't understand how it is even remotely profitable. I would rather go to my FLGS that's open normal hours, has plenty of gaming space, and doesn't look like 1 person works there.

Their (brick n motar) business model isn't sustainable in the long term (at least here in Cali).
   
Made in ca
Master Sergeant





Seems like this thread has become about brick & mortar business practices, but in response to the OP:

Having left in 7th and come back in 8th, it really doesn't feel like much of a net improvement.

The game may be better, but not better enough. The rules are still packaged poorly, badly edited (the indexes had so many errors we were losing track of them the first night), and worst of all there's still countless examples of bad math and poor balancing. The points system is a trainwreck both from a balancing perspective and from an ease-of-use perspective.

The game plays simpler, but in my eyes that isn't necessarily an improvement, since it often feels like it lacks much space for actual strategy or decision making.

From a business perspective 40K is still a huge grift, and new models are priced even more outrageously than anything we've seen in the past. Models get increasingly massive, but the actual kit value goes down as many are monoposed and have so much junk on them they are virtually impossible to customize or convert (without a massive amount of effort, at least).

I could go on for hours, but the point is the GW renaissance is largely overstated.
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Eastern Fringe

For you.

The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





staffordshire england

 Ventus wrote:
Seems like this thread has become about brick & mortar business practices, but in response to the OP:

Having left in 7th and come back in 8th, it really doesn't feel like much of a net improvement.

The game may be better, but not better enough. The rules are still packaged poorly, badly edited (the indexes had so many errors we were losing track of them the first night), and worst of all there's still countless examples of bad math and poor balancing. The points system is a trainwreck both from a balancing perspective and from an ease-of-use perspective.

The game plays simpler, but in my eyes that isn't necessarily an improvement, since it often feels like it lacks much space for actual strategy or decision making.

Models get increasingly massive, but the actual kit value goes down as many are monoposed and have so much junk on them they are virtually impossible to customize or convert (without a massive amount of effort, at least).

I could go on for hours, but the point is the GW renaissance is largely overstated.

This is it in a nutshell. Exalted

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/15 01:09:17




Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men.
Welcome to Fantasy 40k

If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.

Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

I think that the next 6ish months will be really telling with how GW handle customer interaction/engagement.

They could continue with their current pluses (community web, more product, etc) or could just revert back to crap.

I am hopeful, but it is tempered by past experience.
   
Made in us
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





I give GW the benefit of the doubt that they're trying to make a great product.

However, it also feels like they're using every opportunity to squeeze pennies out of us. I think this has been a core quality of the company that has always left me a little salty.

Yes, businesses exist to turn a profit, they couldn't exist or grow without doing that, etc. etc.

The situation with the rulebooks really has left me salty. Like, if I spend $50 on a book, I'm done with that book for the entire edition. That's what I thought, anyway...
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






They're also listening to feedback.

The stuff they're doing now will be projects begun a while back. GW have said their stuff typically takes three years from concept to shelf, but I suspect that's not a universal timescale.

But there's still a time lag between intent and outcome that's unavoidable.

And that will of course be the proof in the pudding. They've made an effort of late, and seem to be taking on board comments and criticisms. If it's 'same old same old' in a few years, we'll have our answer.

And it's not just rules for the game, but an effort at greater diversity in the background and the model range. We're getting different ethnicities in paintjobs on models, and even female sculpts slowly trickling through. Same with the artwork. Since ever I can remember, 40k has been pretty much an aryan sausagefest. Now? Much less so. There's still progress to made (model line lags quite far behind the background, especially AoS where female Stormcast show up ever more regularly, and in all ranks), but that they're bothering at all shows a change of thinking at the top.

It may not count much to you or I - but for others, it might mean an awful lot, without detracting from our enjoyment (well, unless you're an incredible jerk who somehow feels threatened by diversity and better representation for anyone Not You).

It's such a small simple thing, but it does matter. I just hope they follow it through.

   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel




Hi Folks.
I don't think anyone said GW has not made effort to engage with its core demographic of late.

I think it is more a chasing what the competition are doing , as well as listening to feed back in a limited way.(Rather than all of a sudden growing a 'customer conscience'.)

When it was just the customers expressing displeasure at various issues they had, GW did nothing much.(Put their finger in their ears, told everyone to drink the koolaide and put up the prices, basically.)

Only when OTHER companies started listening too and addressing the issues GW customers expressed.All of a sudden GW plc realized they had to do something or they would struggle.

I just wish GW would decide to commit to game development or give up on it.
Rather than just pay lip service to it.As this just detracts from the value for money they offer customers.

MDG is right the GW corporation moves slowly , (with the reactions of a dinosaur. )
I would like believe they are going to start sorting out the rules issues.But after not addressing core issues with the 40k battle game in nearly 2 decades.I am not that hopeful.
   
Made in ca
Master Sergeant





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They're also listening to feedback.


Are they, though? Acknowledging it, certainly, but for the most part GW will do what GW wants to do. The game is hardly designed by committee, and few of the major changes feel directly connected to feedback. In fact, it feels like we've been going BACKWARDS in many places (drop pods, ugh).

And it's not just rules for the game, but an effort at greater diversity in the background and the model range. We're getting different ethnicities in paintjobs on models, and even female sculpts slowly trickling through. Same with the artwork. Since ever I can remember, 40k has been pretty much an aryan sausagefest. Now? Much less so. There's still progress to made (model line lags quite far behind the background, especially AoS where female Stormcast show up ever more regularly, and in all ranks), but that they're bothering at all shows a change of thinking at the top.






Diversity

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/18 22:39:19


 
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

Racerguy180 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that my "local" GW store (25miles) is run by 1 dude and has the craptastically crappiest hours possible. Theyre only open for 5-6hrs a day, with a 30min lunch break thrown in. I honestly don't understand how it is even remotely profitable. I would rather go to my FLGS that's open normal hours, has plenty of gaming space, and doesn't look like 1 person works there.

Their (brick n motar) business model isn't sustainable in the long term (at least here in Cali).


That always baffled me. My local one closes for an hour for lunch, 1-2pm, at the weekend, so 90% of the time I walk past it, it's closed. The only other places I can think of which only have a single staffer are burger vans or those stalls in the middle of malls, and they usually have someone nearby to cover. I can forgive my local FLGS being closed for 30 minutes for lunch, because his cover couldn't make it, because it's a small operation. GW is a multi-million quid multinational so really should do better.
   
 
Forum Index » Dakka Discussions
Go to: