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Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





WA

Suzuteo wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
Fires of Cyraxus soon, boyz.

What units are going to be useful? I have zero clue what any of the Mechanicum units are or if they are good.


We won't know for sure until we see stats and points, but Triaros seem like a no-brainer for a faction without transports.

Maybe there will be a new HQ option or three (Macrotek, Magos, ArchMagos).

Oh no. My Macroteks are being used as Enginseers. I guess I will have options...?

And here's hoping Secutarii are good. Though if Thallaxes have a 24" no-Deep Strike bubble, I will be using those instead. Also, if Automata are actually affordable (or not awful), maybe we will finally have Brigades; Agripinaa may also become viable.

And yes, there is the possibility of transports... but a part of me thinks that GW doesn't want us to have them. Maybe I have just normalized the neglect. Also, it would make Electro-Priests more viable, but I hate how they look.


The Triaros was teased in the art for FoC by FW. Honestly, I am hoping for more high toughness shooty models and cheap, fearless Tech-Thralls, so we can double-down on our strategy.

Plus, a new FW means new traits and stuff. Lets hope we get more than just the default Mars and Stygies as viable options.

   
Made in gr
Stalwart Tribune





Greece

Being able to use stratagems from all lists just because you got a detachment in you army made a soup list 100x better than a simple faction list. The options are just not even close to measurable.

I know it was already better to have guard for the relics and easy cp s and I planned to use gems from all books but this confirmation is just all 7th again. We gonna see broken lists easily.
   
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A garden grove on Citadel Station

So lets see, what Astra Militarum Stratagems should we use?

Preliminary Bombardment 2cp
Each enemy unit, d6, on a 6 they take 1 mortal wound

Take Cover! 1cp
+1 to any one of our units' saving throws (this includes invulnerable)

That is all that I can see that apply to non-Astra Militarum.

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I was talking about Tank Commander with a friend today, and he pointed out that if I'm taking him for the CP recycling, then Valhalla would work better:

Valhallan Patrol Detachment - 287

HQ - 197
Tank Commander - Battle Cannon, 1x Heavy Bolter

Troop - 90
30x Conscripts

Standard battle tank setup for Valhalla; move and shoot the main gun only. Valhalla doubles your wounds on the damage table, which lets your Tank Commander be more durable and capable of fleeing.

A max blob of Conscripts fulfills the Troop requirement. It doesn't need a Commissar because of the Regiment doctrine, and you can always Send in the Next Wave!

Plus, Valhalla fits my sky-blue paint scheme. But that's a personal reason.

I am told other setups to consider are Catachan or Vostroyan Plasma Executioner, and Tallarn Punisher with 2x Heavy Bolter sponsons.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/11 21:35:58


 
   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Lost Carcosa

 ph34r wrote:
So lets see, what Astra Militarum Stratagems should we use?

Preliminary Bombardment 2cp
Each enemy unit, d6, on a 6 they take 1 mortal wound

Take Cover! 1cp
+1 to any one of our units' saving throws (this includes invulnerable)

That is all that I can see that apply to non-Astra Militarum.


Since you have to have a detachment of AM to even use the Stratagems, I would use the one to give out an extra relic so we can make use of Kurovs Aquila on an officer.

Since, apparently, using a Stratagem overrides having to have your Warlord be from a specific army to get access to their Relics. Helps with the CP management a bit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 21:42:50


Standing in the light, I see only darkness.  
   
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Dakka Veteran




Holy hell TAKE COVER is overpowered. Wow. No one post that on Facebook please. My Kastelons don't want that FAQd.

"Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Shooting phase
when your opponent selects one of your units as a target.
You can add 1 to saving throws you make for this unit
until the end of the phase."

EDIT: and yes, to be competitive you want as many mono-faction detachments as possible. Why not use guard strategems with admech strategems? Your army is just better by having a few hundred points of guard. TAKE COVER is just ridiculous. GW can't proofread for crap.

EDIT2: disagree on the strategem granting a non-warlord relic. The strategem says one EXTRA relic. That means you need a first relic to get to the EXTRA. And you can't get that first relic unless your warlord is from the relic's faction.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/11 22:29:06


 
   
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A garden grove on Citadel Station

 Marius Xerxes wrote:
Since, apparently, using a Stratagem overrides having to have your Warlord be from a specific army to get access to their Relics. Helps with the CP management a bit.
Is that true? Very interesting.

If your army is led by an ADEPTUS MECHANICUSWarlord, then before the battle you may give one of the following Arcana Mechanicum to an ADEPTUS MECHANICUS CHARACTER. Named characters such as Belisarius Cawl already have one or more artefacts and cannot be given any of the following relics.
Note that some weapons replace one of the character’s existing weapons. Where this is the case, if you are playing a matched play game or are otherwise using points values, you must still pay the cost of the weapon that is being replaced. Write down any Arcana Mechanicum your characters have on your army roster.

ARCHEOTECH SPECIALISTS
Adeptus Mechanicus Stratagem
Within the techno-vaults there lie many mechanised wonders that can be requisitioned during times of war.
Use this Stratagem before the battle. Your army can have one extra relic from the Arcana Mechanicum for 1 CP, or two extra relics for 3 CPs. All of the relics that you include must be different and be given to different ADEPTUSMECHANICUS CHARACTERS. You can only use this Stratagem once

The question is, does "one extra" imply that you could only take "one extra" if you "may give one of the following Arcana Mechanicum to an ADEPTUS MECHANICS CHARACTER" in the first place?

EDIT: I guess ultimately the answer doesn't matter to me because my warlord is an Astra Militarum Company Commander and all the Mechanicus relics are Complete And Utter Trash so I have no reason to want to give my Mars Battalion's Enginseer any relic at all.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/11 22:31:03


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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Lost Carcosa

Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and
I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of
Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death
Guard Character?


A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to
Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard
Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.

Now while this comes from the Death Guard Codex FAQ, its general terms answer makes me feel this is their intent system wide.

Standing in the light, I see only darkness.  
   
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A garden grove on Citadel Station

Oh, I didn't see the relic one or I spaced out. I think that is a valid answer to our question, then.

Still don't want to take any of the garbage Adeptus Mechanicus relics

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What do you think about taking the 'laurels of command' as your second relic via 1CP? On a 4+ you get a second order on a target. Over the course of the game that is like 5 times 1 unit gets to reroll 1s to wound. Hmmm seems kinda lame.
   
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Georgia

Wulfey wrote:
What do you think about taking the 'laurels of command' as your second relic via 1CP? On a 4+ you get a second order on a target. Over the course of the game that is like 5 times 1 unit gets to reroll 1s to wound. Hmmm seems kinda lame.


Its best on a Company commander in a larger IG detachment, since they issue two order they get the possiblily to hand out 4 orders and with IG we usually have more orderable units than officers so having extra orders is never a bad thing.

So if your looking at a main AM force it can be worth it but for conscript bubblewrap and objective anchors there are better choices.

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A garden grove on Citadel Station

Wulfey wrote:
What do you think about taking the 'laurels of command' as your second relic via 1CP? On a 4+ you get a second order on a target. Over the course of the game that is like 5 times 1 unit gets to reroll 1s to wound. Hmmm seems kinda lame.
I'm definitely in favor of it at this point. This is the list I will be running this weekend:
Phobos 1st Macrocode [MARS]
Cawl 250
Enginseer 52
5 Rangers 40
5 Rangers 40
5 Rangers 40
6 robots 660
Neutron onager 140
Neutron onager 140

11th Hellfire [ELYSIAN]
Elysian commander, bolter, Laurels of Command 41
Elysian commander, bolter 41
Elysian command squad 56
Elysian command squad 56
Elysian SWS 51
Elysian SWS 51
Eversor 70

Phobos Ordinatus Auxiliary [CADIAN]
Cadian commander, bolter, warlord, Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila 30
Earthshaker battery 80
Earthshaker battery 80
Earthshaker battery 80

1998p, 8/7 (-1 from 2 relic) CP

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 16:23:28


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The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
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Belgium

Wow GW screwed so much with the Stratagems thing I can't believe it. Since the start of 8th they tell us "we will reward fluffy, themed armies" and then they make doctrinas Detachment-wide instead of army-wide, so we're stuck with Imperial soup forever, and now they allow us to use Stratagems that clearly weren't meant to be used in another armies, because they probably balanced these for their own codex, not half the game's codices. This just feels like badly written rules in an amateur indie game, not GW. Seriously what the hell ?

40K: Mechanicus and Drukhari.
AoS: Nighthaunts

My Stygies VIII army in pictures !
My Eversor and Culexus assassins !

 Rolsheen wrote:
Ah yes the mythical world of Cyraxus
Where GW hold an annual bonfire festival to burn the hopes and dreams of all Ad Mech players
 
   
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 Aaranis wrote:
Wow GW screwed so much with the Stratagems thing I can't believe it. Since the start of 8th they tell us "we will reward fluffy, themed armies" and then they make doctrinas Detachment-wide instead of army-wide, so we're stuck with Imperial soup forever, and now they allow us to use Stratagems that clearly weren't meant to be used in another armies, because they probably balanced these for their own codex, not half the game's codices. This just feels like badly written rules in an amateur indie game, not GW. Seriously what the hell ?


Did an FAQ come out or are you talking about the FLG podcast?

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
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Belgium

rvd1ofakind wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:
Wow GW screwed so much with the Stratagems thing I can't believe it. Since the start of 8th they tell us "we will reward fluffy, themed armies" and then they make doctrinas Detachment-wide instead of army-wide, so we're stuck with Imperial soup forever, and now they allow us to use Stratagems that clearly weren't meant to be used in another armies, because they probably balanced these for their own codex, not half the game's codices. This just feels like badly written rules in an amateur indie game, not GW. Seriously what the hell ?


Did an FAQ come out or are you talking about the FLG podcast?


Marius Xerxes wrote:Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and
I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of
Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death
Guard Character?


A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to
Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard
Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.

Now while this comes from the Death Guard Codex FAQ, its general terms answer makes me feel this is their intent system wide.

Talking about this.

40K: Mechanicus and Drukhari.
AoS: Nighthaunts

My Stygies VIII army in pictures !
My Eversor and Culexus assassins !

 Rolsheen wrote:
Ah yes the mythical world of Cyraxus
Where GW hold an annual bonfire festival to burn the hopes and dreams of all Ad Mech players
 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

 Aaranis wrote:
Wow GW screwed so much with the Stratagems thing I can't believe it. Since the start of 8th they tell us "we will reward fluffy, themed armies" and then they make doctrinas Detachment-wide instead of army-wide, so we're stuck with Imperial soup forever, and now they allow us to use Stratagems that clearly weren't meant to be used in another armies, because they probably balanced these for their own codex, not half the game's codices. This just feels like badly written rules in an amateur indie game, not GW. Seriously what the hell ?

 Aaranis wrote:
now they allow us to use Stratagems that clearly weren't meant to be used in another armies

It is extremely clear to me that GW intentionally, deliberately made "Take Cover!" able to be used on non-Astra-Militarum units. The other 20 or so Stratagems in the Astra Militarum book specify keyword restrictions very clearly. This is intentional.

Now, as to the "we will reward fluffy, themed armies"....... well, all the Doctrinas are Garbage LOL. The only real Doctrina is "Doctrina: you can take Cawl so your army doesn't suck".

I fully expect to NEVER EVER see a Graia, Metalica, Lucius, Agripinaa, or Ryza army in real life. It's a fething disgrace to be sure.

EDIT: Remember guys, we might get a new Dogma for Forge World: Cyraxus. As long as Fires of Cyraxus hasn't come out yet, it could be anything! It could fix all our problems!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 06:03:02


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When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
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-ph34r

Where are you taking that list out? I am taking a similar list to Game Empire in Pasadena California.

This is what I was thinking. I still don't have a good earthshaker proxy. Maybe next week in time for SoCal Open. I have more screening units and special weapons and dragoons. You have those cannons and an extra special weapons team.


Spoiler:
Cawl 250 0
Enginseer 52 0
6x Dakkastan 660 0
2x Neutron 140 0
Vanguard 45
Rangers 40 8 (2arc)
Rangers 40 25 (1 transArq)
2x Dragoon 136

2x ElyCom 40 5
2x ComSquad 28 28
2x Ely Snipers 15 6

ElyCom 40 1 [warlord with bolter, 5+ get back CP trait, 5+ get CP on opponent strategem relic]
ComSquad 28 28
2x Ely Sniper 15 6
1x Ely Mortar 15 15
1x Plas Wep Team 30 21
   
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




Hey, So I have a question.

Say it's my shooting phase and I've already used the reroll stratagem and now I want to fire a neutron onager at a flyer.
So because it's hard to hit I want to use the protector stratagem but do I have to activate that before I roll d3 amount of shots?
The thought process is that if I roll 1 shot I have another neutron onager that might roll 2 or 3. and it'd be less of a waste.
   
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you can't really say GW isn't rewarding fluffy armies when guard are winning by sacrificing hoards of guardsmen to the meatgrinder and using artillery to blast stuff off the board.

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
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PiñaColada wrote:
Hey, So I have a question.

Say it's my shooting phase and I've already used the reroll stratagem and now I want to fire a neutron onager at a flyer.
So because it's hard to hit I want to use the protector stratagem but do I have to activate that before I roll d3 amount of shots?
The thought process is that if I roll 1 shot I have another neutron onager that might roll 2 or 3. and it'd be less of a waste.

You pretty much never use the reroll stratagem anymore, but to answer your question, the codex specifies that you can only use it before you attack.

gendoikari87 wrote:
you can't really say GW isn't rewarding fluffy armies when guard are winning by sacrificing hoards of guardsmen to the meatgrinder and using artillery to blast stuff off the board.

That's like saying Tyranids win because of Hive Tyrants and not Termagaunts. Every unit has a role to play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 10:10:08


 
   
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WA

 ph34r wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
What do you think about taking the 'laurels of command' as your second relic via 1CP? On a 4+ you get a second order on a target. Over the course of the game that is like 5 times 1 unit gets to reroll 1s to wound. Hmmm seems kinda lame.
I'm definitely in favor of it at this point. This is the list I will be running this weekend:
Phobos 1st Macrocode [MARS]
Cawl 250
Enginseer 52
5 Rangers 40
5 Rangers 40
5 Rangers 40
3 robots 330
3 robots 330
Neutron onager 140
Neutron onager 140

11th Hellfire [ELYSIAN]
Elysian commander, bolter, Laurels of Command 41
Elysian commander, bolter 41
Elysian command squad 56
Elysian command squad 56
Elysian SWS 51
Elysian SWS 51
Eversor 70

Phobos Ordinatus Auxiliary [CADIAN]
Cadian commander, bolter, warlord, Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila 30
Earthshaker battery 80
Earthshaker battery 80
Earthshaker battery 80

1998p, 8/7 (-1 from 2 relic) CP


I think you mean 6 Robots, not 2x3, right?

   
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Phobos and no grey knights allies? For for shame sir for shame.

Also anyone have any details on what forces get sent out when the phobos tech guard accompany the grey knights? I can't imagine they'd use skitarii I'm assuming servitors and bots

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
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A garden grove on Citadel Station

gendoikari87 wrote:Phobos and no grey knights allies? For for shame sir for shame.

Also anyone have any details on what forces get sent out when the phobos tech guard accompany the grey knights? I can't imagine they'd use skitarii I'm assuming servitors and bots
The Grey Knights got given Deimos, Mars still has Phobos I'm pretty sure!

em_en_oh_pee wrote:I think you mean 6 Robots, not 2x3, right?
In my last game I ran 6 in one unit and had a hard time getting them proper lines of sight. My gaming group might use more terrain than the average 40k player. The robots extremely overkilled everything they were shooting at, and then were left with not a ton of great targets, and the Iron Warriors fell back away from 36" range. Worth noting it was the deployment zones where you fight long-ways across the table, and it was a Maelstrom objective mission.
So, next game I will probably have one unit move forward for 1 turn while the other unit stays stationary and immediately opens fire.

Wulfey wrote:-ph34r

Where are you taking that list out? I am taking a similar list to Game Empire in Pasadena California.

This is what I was thinking. I still don't have a good earthshaker proxy. Maybe next week in time for SoCal Open. I have more screening units and special weapons and dragoons. You have those cannons and an extra special weapons team.

Spoiler:
Cawl 250 0
Enginseer 52 0
6x Dakkastan 660 0
2x Neutron 140 0
Vanguard 45
Rangers 40 8 (2arc)
Rangers 40 25 (1 transArq)
2x Dragoon 136

2x ElyCom 40 5
2x ComSquad 28 28
2x Ely Snipers 15 6

ElyCom 40 1 [warlord with bolter, 5+ get back CP trait, 5+ get CP on opponent strategem relic]
ComSquad 28 28
2x Ely Sniper 15 6
1x Ely Mortar 15 15
1x Plas Wep Team 30 21
Hah that's awesome! I'm up here in Palo Alto California. Got any pics of your army?

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Thoughts on broad spectrum data tether for vanguard.
My list is infantry heavy because I love the skitarii models, so I have 3 vanguard squads, each with 2 plasma calivers.

I have the points to make them all either 7 man squads with a data teather, or 8 man squads without. With our bad leadership the tether feels like a safe bet, but not sure if one extra guy would work out to be more useful.
   
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Yup you are correct it is Deimos! Sorry about that proceed

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
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WA

 ph34r wrote:

em_en_oh_pee wrote:I think you mean 6 Robots, not 2x3, right?
In my last game I ran 6 in one unit and had a hard time getting them proper lines of sight. My gaming group might use more terrain than the average 40k player. The robots extremely overkilled everything they were shooting at, and then were left with not a ton of great targets, and the Iron Warriors fell back away from 36" range. Worth noting it was the deployment zones where you fight long-ways across the table, and it was a Maelstrom objective mission.
So, next game I will probably have one unit move forward for 1 turn while the other unit stays stationary and immediately opens fire.


The issue would be that your list is then illegal, because you have four Heavy slots.

For that specific deployment, you might want to spend a turn in Aegis and advance up. Depending on the mission and whatnot. If they are coming to you or to the center of the table, maybe just make sure you can cover that before going for the BO.

   
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Sad that there's more talk about imperial guard in this thread than ad mech.
   
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A garden grove on Citadel Station

em_en_oh_pee wrote:[The issue would be that your list is then illegal, because you have four Heavy slots.

For that specific deployment, you might want to spend a turn in Aegis and advance up. Depending on the mission and whatnot. If they are coming to you or to the center of the table, maybe just make sure you can cover that before going for the BO.
Conflabbit you're right. For whatever reason I was thinking Battalions could have 4 or something, but they just get 6 elites.

Danny slag wrote:Sad that there's more talk about imperial guard in this thread than ad mech.
Yeaaaaahhhhhh :/

It's the hand we've been dealt. There are just so many units in our book that are straight up awful. Our Dogmas, once thought to possibly show up and make our bad units viable, are basically all terrible, and did not fix this problem.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 16:16:35


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The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in gr
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Greece

There are many battles that we v seen in fluff novels stories expansions that the imperium unite to face enemies.

Unfortunately since our codex is what it is most likely you LL have a soup list. We have already talked about admech codex for all details extensively. And there is talk 2-3 threats back before this one 100+ pages .

And I m currently playing solo adeptus mechanicus since most smaller tours don't allow multi factions and imperium considered to be one.

That said I wanted to say I got almost identical lists with guard and without guard and I don't find so many differences as you might believe. And if we exclude from the talk the obvious battalion. Warlord 5+ 5+ trait and relic that is cheat for many armies the rest are not so extreme to replace our army.

Ok troops ok relic ok warlord but there it stops in most cases.
Why would I decide not to pick dragoons to infiltrate and take 77 point tempestus drop? For??? No regiment buff expensive for what? 2-5 plasma shots when a dragoon will get buffs healing even can screen can attack -2 being hit etc.
Let's say a basilisk vs onager or a Russ. It's close maybe some options but you need to stack . Won't change my army from my 3 onagers to 3 Russ. And it's more expensive and different while I still consider onagers tougher .
Same goes for various options I v tried to include and finally I see
V few valid options that will actually bring something different with fewer points par with a unit we got.
Yes bodies we don't have yes psychers we don't have etc some of the options you can get but limited. I v decided to pick bullgryns to screen or assault. Why would you take them ?? You got stygia priests worse at start but cheaper and able if played properly to go 3+ invu and use guard gems for an extreme 2+5+fnp?

Elysians I already see plasma point increase for all guard if they go above 68 I will still go for a dragoon choise cause it's buffable and within canticles etc.
It's good it's ok it has options and we talk about the. But 1) you need to make a pure admech either way
2) there are good option but no need for extreme measures . If you try to go for a mass plasma drop or tank buffing you already going for a Astra m army.
Good luck

Tip : guard gem 1cp +1 save for enemy round so it's a defensive gem and we already got one +1 save and +1 attack for infantry . Its ok but not extreme.
Tip 2 : I see a great list mech guard support for knights. Extremely good. If you can fit all inside .
Tip3 : plasma on Astra codex says bs4+ 7poins 3+ 13 so I believe the points are at least that much already abjusted for elysians.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/12 19:10:37


 
   
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Hey, would you guys be averse to a set of fan-made rules made to port over a large portion of 30k mechanicus over to 40k?

I would be making these rules to be both BALANCED and FUN. With continuous community feedback, I think we could make something that everyone would be OK playing against/with.

Who knows, it might even be accepted by smaller tournaments if the ruleset gets popular?

I bring this up because FoC is no-where near soon to come out and I feel like mechanicus has REALLY gotten stale for me.

For credentials, I wrote up a 7ed IG codex that I feel was well balanced to the meta at the time:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/670807.page

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/12 19:52:47


 
   
 
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