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 Marmatag wrote:
I would be careful thinking of flamer weapons hitting with that kind of power. 3D6 auto hits for a less than 10 point weapon would be disgusting. And deep striking double-hand flamer marines would be just gross, i think BA can do this. One guy putting out 6d6 auto-hits? Nah, that's busted.

Or make Guardsmen S2, T2.

How are the BA getting within 9" when they deep strike with those Flamers? Or are you talking about once they make it into melee? Because I have been playing BA since 8th dropped, and unless we use the 2 CP Stratagem that lets a DC unit move before the game begins, we aren't getting that close with Flamers besides a single Librarian with Wings of Sanguinius...

There is a reason I have stopped using Flamers and Hand Flamers with BA, I NEVER got to use them.

The fix to hordes can only come from morale.

Take a page from Killteam and say that "When a unit makes a morale check, it adds to the result the total of number of units with the same datasheet that have been destroyed in that game".

Troops are only a problem if they can MSU horde, in big hordes you either have problems with morale, or you have spent to make them morale immune (and added a possible weakness).

I know this won't make Catachan players happy, but what if grenades and flamers with a random number of shots get to reroll that number vs units with 5 or more models in it. So if facing a larger mob of models, your flamer or frag grenade has a better chance of hurting more models. Would somehow need to be applied to missile launchers too. (I'm sure there are a bunch of weapons under the umbrella but you get my drift).

I'm on a big 40k pause till this dang FAQ comes out.

 bullyboy wrote:
I know this won't make Catachan players happy, but what if grenades and flamers with a random number of shots get to reroll that number vs units with 5 or more models in it. So if facing a larger mob of models, your flamer or frag grenade has a better chance of hurting more models. Would somehow need to be applied to missile launchers too. (I'm sure there are a bunch of weapons under the umbrella but you get my drift).

5? That's not even large number of models...Where has this come when basically minimum size unit is considered "large mob of models"...

GW ups the size of armies by dropping point costs and upping standard game size and players respond by lowering minimum unit of models to be considered "large mob of models"

 ph34r wrote:
I'm on a big 40k pause till this dang FAQ comes out.

Likewise. I want to pick up some more stuff soon, but, i'm also not going to just go and buy things that are likely going to be changed, or potentially affected by some new beta rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In regards to flamers and them being a bit more reliable vs hordes, I’d do the following –

Hand Flamer – remains the same.
Flamer – -1 ap, 2D3 shots + D3 for every 5 models in the unit after the first 5. (to a maximum of 4d3)
Heavy Flamer - -2 ap, 2d3 shots + D3 for every 5 models in the unit after the first 5. (to a maximum of 4d3)

I’d also adjust them and grenades with the following rule –
These weapons cannot make shooting attacks against units benefitting from the Supersonic rule.

Only problem is, at this point, the weapon profile comments start getting a bit lengthy and boarding on reintroducing USRs again.

tneva82 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I know this won't make Catachan players happy, but what if grenades and flamers with a random number of shots get to reroll that number vs units with 5 or more models in it. So if facing a larger mob of models, your flamer or frag grenade has a better chance of hurting more models. Would somehow need to be applied to missile launchers too. (I'm sure there are a bunch of weapons under the umbrella but you get my drift).

5? That's not even large number of models...Where has this come when basically minimum size unit is considered "large mob of models"...

GW ups the size of armies by dropping point costs and upping standard game size and players respond by lowering minimum unit of models to be considered "large mob of models"

It also creates weird situations where people start taking 9 strong units instead of 10 just to dodge such rules.

GW needs to create a weapon type that has linear scaling with model count. The bombs dropped by ork bommers do this really well, maybe blast should return to a similar mechanic.

For those who are not familiar with ork bommers: Ork bommer roll a d6 for every model in the unit, on a 4+/5+ they suffer a mortal wound. The anti-tank bomb counts vehicles as three models, the anti-infantry bomb gets +1 to the roll. Both are capped at 10 dice.

So maybe previous small/large blasts could just get a shot for every model in the enemy unit, small blasts capped at 5, large blasts at 10. Or you could just do something like "Blast X - this model has shots equal to the number of models in the target unit, but no more than X".

That is actually rather common mechanic for aircraft bombs. Dark eldars also have it. IIRC so did necron flyer.

Does have weird effects though where supposed anti-tank bomb is actually infantry swarm killer.

Guys, we already have good anti-horde weapons, it's not a problem for current meta.

>Guard have punishers
>Custodes bikes
>marines have hurricane (stormravens, dark angels flyers etc.)
>knights and chaos knights have gatlings
>daemons have bloodletters
> necrons have tesla
>tau got riptides and basicaly everything
> eldar is eldar
> DE have poision spam

Hordes are not a problem atm, they are easly counterable, just many people are not prepared to handle them taking generic weapon or focusing on knights.

Problem is Castellan - unkillable due to 3++, Taloses - unkillable due to 4++ and high T, shining spears and reapers - due to stratagems and soulbursts.

hordes are perforimg well, but they are counterable easly. People see lists Castellan+guard+BA cpt and say guardsmans are problem? No. problem is castellan and spammable smashcpt. without them infantry spam would not work, guard were all about leman russes before castellan come to play.

EDIT: okay, there is one cancerous horde build - plaguebarer spam. I am perfectly fine with nurgle resilient hordes, but why the feth they are almost FASTEST UNIT IN GAME? They just overflow table in 1-2 turns. They could stay but i cannot see any narrative support to rotting guys being so fast

But we are looking for an infantry swarm killer, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Forfiter wrote:
Guys, we already have good anti-horde weapons, it's not a problem for current meta.

>Guard have punishers
>Custodes bikes
>marines have hurricane (stormravens, dark angels flyers etc.)
>knights and chaos knights have gatlings
>daemons have bloodletters
> necrons have tesla
>tau got riptides and basicaly everything
> eldar is eldar
> DE have poision spam

Hordes are not a problem atm, they are easly counterable, just many people are not prepared to handle them taking generic weapon or focusing on knights.

Problem is Castellan - unkillable due to 3++, Taloses - unkillable due to 4++ and high T, shining spears and reapers - due to stratagems and soulbursts.

hordes are perforimg well, but they are counterable easly. People see lists Castellan+guard+BA cpt and say guardsmans are problem? No. problem is castellan and spammable smashcpt. without them infantry spam would not work, guard were all about leman russes before castellan come to play.

EDIT: okay, there is one cancerous horde build - plaguebarer spam. I am perfectly fine with nurgle resilient hordes, but why the feth they are almost FASTEST UNIT IN GAME? They just overflow table in 1-2 turns. They could stay but i cannot see any narrative support to rotting guys being so fast

The problem is not that you cannot kill hordes - the problem is that all those "anti-horde" weapons you listed are also great at wiping out elite infantry.

Forfiter wrote:
Guys, we already have good anti-horde weapons, it's not a problem for current meta.

Thing is all those are even better at killing non-horde ;-)

tneva82 wrote:

Forfiter wrote:
Guys, we already have good anti-horde weapons, it's not a problem for current meta.

Thing is all those are even better at killing non-horde ;-)

True. Even PUNISHER deals more damage to Castellan than Shadowsword volcano - that is riddiculus.

Problem is as mentioned before, GW cant do stats and makes a lot of multi-dice weapons like heavy 20 with dmg 1 (that have 20 max dmg) but on similar price it will do heavt 1 D6 dmg that is really bad. Single dice weapons are worse usually due to dmg not going thru models and high rerolable invul save but they also have very low max dmg comparing to multi-dice one. Noone play vanquisher as it's useless vs horden AND doing lower damage even vs tanks than Punishers.

Its not a problem related to infantry, it's bad weapon balance overaly. GW have to learn statistics.

 Dysartes wrote:


Huh - my apologies, then. I thought they'd learned from the criticism they got for missing March for the March FAQ (which was renamed to the Spring FAQ at the time), and been smart enough to given themselves a larger window to work with.

Oh, well, cue the gnashing of teeth when it misses September...

Well, the official reasoning for the delay of the March/Spring-FAQ (whether correct or not) was that the GW guys wanted to wait until after the Adepticon tournament (which was around the last weekend of March?) and incorporate experiences and feedback from that event. 2 weeks after Adepticon, they released the FAQ.

The corresponding event they attached themselves to for the fall was Nova, with GW rules writers famously being there and doing some judging at the event, as well as collecting feedback, so there shouldn't, in theory, be a delay into October, because there's an extra month, relatively, between the "let's have a last look big-tournament" and the FAQ "deadline".

Of course, the Adepticon thing could've just been an excuse too.

 ph34r wrote:
I'm on a big 40k pause till this dang FAQ comes out.

Still playing, but buying models(except for Horus Heresy) has been on a pause until it comes out.

Forfiter wrote:
Guys, we already have good anti-horde weapons, it's not a problem for current meta.

>Guard have punishers
>Custodes bikes
>marines have hurricane (stormravens, dark angels flyers etc.)
>knights and chaos knights have gatlings
>daemons have bloodletters
> necrons have tesla
>tau got riptides and basicaly everything
> eldar is eldar
> DE have poision spam

Hordes are not a problem atm, they are easly counterable, just many people are not prepared to handle them taking generic weapon or focusing on knights.

Problem is Castellan - unkillable due to 3++, Taloses - unkillable due to 4++ and high T, shining spears and reapers - due to stratagems and soulbursts.

hordes are perforimg well, but they are counterable easly. People see lists Castellan+guard+BA cpt and say guardsmans are problem? No. problem is castellan and spammable smashcpt. without them infantry spam would not work, guard were all about leman russes before castellan come to play.

EDIT: okay, there is one cancerous horde build - plaguebarer spam. I am perfectly fine with nurgle resilient hordes, but why the feth they are almost FASTEST UNIT IN GAME? They just overflow table in 1-2 turns. They could stay but i cannot see any narrative support to rotting guys being so fast

Go and take any of those, calculate how many points of Guardsman it kills, and how many points of space marines. And you will see why people are complaining about a lack of anti-horde weapons.

No one here is denying that the Imperial netlist is not a problem, everyone is expecting nerfs to it. A person is capable of talking about problem X without instantly forgetting that problem Y also exists.

Why not give stuff like flamers a base number of auto hits? Lets say it is 5 auto hits, +dX for units that have 10 plus models and scaling. So a unit of 30 dudes would get hit 5+3d6 times. Which would be enough to hurt horde, Would still do those 5 hits to marines and other msu.

Or another thing they could do is to give it a flat number of hits, but a really low strenght like 2 or 3, -1ap and a stacking bonus to strenght for how big the unit is. So 5-10 marines would be hit by str 3, but 30 genestealers would be getting hit with str 5 ot even 6.

Hordes are just a symptom of the game in general becoming more "glasscannon" for all armies, as Index-to-Codex dials up the damage output of armies, but not the ability of (normal) armies to take/defend against damage in equal measure.

- There're plenty of boosts in the form of double-shooting tanks and units, but no units that just take half of all hits
- There're plenty of strats to add +1 and/or re-roll to hits and wounds, but the inverse is rare (and those armies that have it, like Lightning Fast Reflexes use it basically every game).
- Fight/Shoot again strats are in almost every codex, but -1 activation strats to counter them don't exist.
- Weapons get boosted from D3 shots to D6 shots everywhere, be it Harlequins, Knights, etc..
- re-rolls to hit and/or to wound are far more common than re-rolls to saves, etc..


If, as a rule of thumb, 40K just gets more and more lethal on the offensive side, but the game pieces across all armies aren't buffed in equal measure defensively, your average "white dwarf-battle-report-style-armies" are all essentially playing 1-turn glasscannon-40K at some point.

The only ways you can even get around is to go for "extreme" defensive concepts like stacking -1s or just going extreme horde, simply because point drops on models is one of the few "defensive buffs" GW has included in Codexes, which benefits hordes more than it does "medium quality units" which are left at Index-levels defensively for the most part, while the offensive output of most armies has skyrocketed.

But the game has to be leathal. If GW made their units resilient people would be playing smaller games aka buy fewer models. There are very few people that can mentaly stomach 100-150models per side killing 10-15 models each turn.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Hordes are just a symptom of the game in general becoming more "glasscannon" for all armies, as Index-to-Codex dials up the damage output of armies, but not the ability of (normal) armies to take/defend against damage in equal measure.

- There're plenty of boosts in the form of double-shooting tanks and units, but no units that just take half of all hits
- There're plenty of strats to add +1 and/or re-roll to hits and wounds, but the inverse is rare (and those armies that have it, like Lightning Fast Reflexes use it basically every game).
- Fight/Shoot again strats are in almost every codex, but -1 activation strats to counter them don't exist.
- Weapons get boosted from D3 shots to D6 shots everywhere, be it Harlequins, Knights, etc..
- re-rolls to hit and/or to wound are far more common than re-rolls to saves, etc..


If, as a rule of thumb, 40K just gets more and more lethal on the offensive side, but the game pieces across all armies aren't buffed in equal measure defensively, your average "white dwarf-battle-report-style-armies" are all essentially playing 1-turn glasscannon-40K at some point.

The only ways you can even get around is to go for "extreme" defensive concepts like stacking -1s or just going extreme horde, simply because point drops on models is one of the few "defensive buffs" GW has included in Codexes, which benefits hordes more than it does "medium quality units" which are left at Index-levels defensively for the most part, while the offensive output of most armies has skyrocketed.

I agree and it is a problem which contributes many of the game's issues. IGOUGO system breaks down if armies can annihilate huge chunks of the enemy force in one turn.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
I'm on a big 40k pause till this dang FAQ comes out.

Still playing, but buying models(except for Horus Heresy) has been on a pause until it comes out.

Same for me.
Not sure what route to go. Buying something which is invalidated within a short time period makes no sense.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
I'm on a big 40k pause till this dang FAQ comes out.

Still playing, but buying models(except for Horus Heresy) has been on a pause until it comes out.

Same for me.
Not sure what route to go. Buying something which is invalidated within a short time period makes no sense.

Yep, especially if you are running armies that are considered top tier.

I haven't bought any models for my main army since 8E dropped. I had to go out a get some Eldar Troops since GW decided to remove mine as a Troops option (Windriders), but after I got some Rangers and Guardians, I haven't bought anything for me Eldar since.

However, I've bought far more models just for painting/collecting from other factions than I've ever done in the past. Of course, part of that is to keep me invested in the game as I don't get enough time away from home to play games lately. I've also built up 3 Index rules only armies for Marines, CSM and Necrons to play small games at home with.

-

 Galef wrote:
I haven't bought any models for my main army since 8E dropped. I have to go out a get some Eldar Troops since GW decided to remove mine as a Troops option (Windriders), but after I got some Rangers and Guardians, I haven't bought anything for me Eldar since.

However, I've bought far more models just for painting/collecting from other factions than I've ever done in the past. Of course, part of that is to keep me invested in the game as I don't get enough time away from home to play games lately. I've also built up 3 Index rules only armies for Marines, CSM and Necrons to play small games at home with.
-

You could still buy some Dark Reapers despite their pt increase. Still one of the best units in the game.
Windriders fill gaps in a gun line and are useful in a Ynnari army.

Dark Reapers are still quite good. I personally feel they are at a good point now, but to be fair I don't play Ynnari so I don't know if that is still broken as hell.

Windriders can be decent objective runners if you keep them cheap. They do not, however, carry the army like they used to.

tneva82 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I know this won't make Catachan players happy, but what if grenades and flamers with a random number of shots get to reroll that number vs units with 5 or more models in it. So if facing a larger mob of models, your flamer or frag grenade has a better chance of hurting more models. Would somehow need to be applied to missile launchers too. (I'm sure there are a bunch of weapons under the umbrella but you get my drift).

5? That's not even large number of models...Where has this come when basically minimum size unit is considered "large mob of models"...

GW ups the size of armies by dropping point costs and upping standard game size and players respond by lowering minimum unit of models to be considered "large mob of models"

Truthful.
Perhaps 10 models better, I was just going by the other rules that are similar (Vindicator etc)

 Crimson wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Hordes are just a symptom of the game in general becoming more "glasscannon" for all armies, as Index-to-Codex dials up the damage output of armies, but not the ability of (normal) armies to take/defend against damage in equal measure.

- There're plenty of boosts in the form of double-shooting tanks and units, but no units that just take half of all hits
- There're plenty of strats to add +1 and/or re-roll to hits and wounds, but the inverse is rare (and those armies that have it, like Lightning Fast Reflexes use it basically every game).
- Fight/Shoot again strats are in almost every codex, but -1 activation strats to counter them don't exist.
- Weapons get boosted from D3 shots to D6 shots everywhere, be it Harlequins, Knights, etc..
- re-rolls to hit and/or to wound are far more common than re-rolls to saves, etc..


If, as a rule of thumb, 40K just gets more and more lethal on the offensive side, but the game pieces across all armies aren't buffed in equal measure defensively, your average "white dwarf-battle-report-style-armies" are all essentially playing 1-turn glasscannon-40K at some point.

The only ways you can even get around is to go for "extreme" defensive concepts like stacking -1s or just going extreme horde, simply because point drops on models is one of the few "defensive buffs" GW has included in Codexes, which benefits hordes more than it does "medium quality units" which are left at Index-levels defensively for the most part, while the offensive output of most armies has skyrocketed.

I agree and it is a problem which contributes many of the game's issues. IGOUGO system breaks down if armies can annihilate huge chunks of the enemy force before they get to take a turn.

Fixed that for you.

IGOUGO wouldn't be so broken if the standard setup had enough distance between the deployment zones that maneuvering into rifle range wasn't trivial and the average heavy weapon didn't have range on the entire board. I swear GW designs profiles like they think we all play on 10'x10' boards with a piece of terrain big enough to hide a Knight every 6" or so.

(...at least until I remember that Basilisks have a 720" range, suffer no to-hit penalties for indirect fire, and can shell units that are not only out of LoS for them but that no allied unit has LoS to either.)

 Eldarsif wrote:
Windriders can be decent objective runners if you keep them cheap. They do not, however, carry the army like they used to.

There is no way to "keep them cheap", but my main issue with them is 2-fold:
A) I played Eldar long before Scatterbike spam was the OP thing to do, and Bikes were always my preferred Troops, to the exclusion of all others
Having to now buy and field Troops that I never had before just to have a decent # of CPs makes my army feel off
B) For basically pennies more, you can just get Spears, which are far better and since I had to spend points of different units for fill Troops above, why bother with WRs now at all?

I agree spears need a points bump, but it's unlikely (hopefully) for them to go above 35-40ppm. If WRs don't also get a points decrease, Spears will still be the better option
However the points get adjusted, I like to see 2 WRs with Twin-cats cost LESS than 1 Spear, while 2 WR's with either Scatters or Shuricannons can be just slightly more than 1 Spear.
FAQ/Errata that change and I'll be happy

-

tneva82 wrote:

Forfiter wrote:
Guys, we already have good anti-horde weapons, it's not a problem for current meta.

Thing is all those are even better at killing non-horde ;-)

This is actually a common misconception. That is only because someone made the calculation using a guardmen against a marine and it results that a bolter kills marine points better than it kills guardsmen points. True,but the problem is with the marine, not with the weapon.

If you make that calculation using another elite troop, like a tyranid warrior, you discover that a bolter kills guards better than tyranid warriors, and that is using guards, which as we know could be easily a 5 point model.

If you use a boyz as a representative of hordes, which is a competitive choice, you discover that bolt weapons actually inflict 56% more point damage on "hordes", than on "elites".

So no, that arguemtn has always been false. The game has plenty of anti horde weapons, everything S3 or S4 without AP is.

The Newman wrote:
Fixed that for you.

IGOUGO wouldn't be so broken if the standard setup had enough distance between the deployment zones that maneuvering into rifle range wasn't trivial and the average heavy weapon didn't have range on the entire board. I swear GW designs profiles like they think we all play on 10'x10' boards with a piece of terrain big enough to hide a Knight every 6" or so.

(...at least until I remember that Basilisks have a 720" range, suffer no to-hit penalties for indirect fire, and can shell units that are not only out of LoS for them but that no allied unit has LoS to either.)

Epic solved this problem pretty well. It was designed to play on the same size of table as 40K, but typical weapon ranges were ~6" for small arms, 12-18" for standard infantry heavy weapons, and then 24-48" for vehicle weapons. As long as they kept in command, units were much more mobile relative to their weapon ranges, both from shorter weapon ranges and from being able to move multiple times in one turn.

Random thought: Would 40K completely break if GW added the Kill Team rule of -1 to hit at over half range, but also made a roll of 6 always hit? Seems like it could address issues of melee being underpowered, shooting being too lethal, and horde (typically BS4+) armies being too effective all in one stroke, while also making weapon ranges more relevant to typical tabletop sizes.

Boyz are the only unit which is protected by nothing but a 6+ save. Most horde units have a 5+ or better (5++, fnp) save, which makes them more durable than boyz, even if they are T3.