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Made in us
[DCM]
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

I don’t get why the physical size of the commander of the Resistance matters. Did John Connor defeat Skynet with his muscles?

But the rest of it...sure. Whatever.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Even the Usual Suspects sounds stupid if you hear the plot explained by a hater.


Cops get their man but let him go because he says it wasn't him?
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

The guys who won the Oscar for writing the screenplay described their own movie as a gimmicky Murder She Wrote disguised with swears and darkness.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I don’t get why the physical size of the commander of the Resistance matters. Did John Connor defeat Skynet with his muscles?

But the rest of it...sure. Whatever.


I heard there was a scene where future her singlehandedly beats up a whole group of rapists all individually much bigger than her. Was that reviewer mistaken? Unless it was made clear that she too is upgraded like Grace, that's why her physicality matters. If they had instead cast someone like Gina Carano or anyone with an impressive physical presence (like Linda Hamilton in T2 but not T1) then it wouldn't matter. I'd be saying the same thing if they had instead cast the guy from Napoleon Dynamite in the shape he was in for that movie as a T-800.

   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

To be fair, no one would eve expect this to be a killing machine. It's actually rather brilliant I mean, in the post-apocalyptic future who is healthy enough to be ripped like a body builder?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/06 04:22:23


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 LordofHats wrote:
To be fair, no one would eve expect this to be a killing machine. It's actually rather brilliant I mean, in the post-apocalyptic future who is healthy enough to be ripped like a body builder?


Check out the guns on this infiltrator unit!


   
Made in us
[DCM]
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

 warboss wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I don’t get why the physical size of the commander of the Resistance matters. Did John Connor defeat Skynet with his muscles?

But the rest of it...sure. Whatever.


I heard there was a scene where future her singlehandedly beats up a whole group of rapists all individually much bigger than her. Was that reviewer mistaken? Unless it was made clear that she too is upgraded like Grace, that's why her physicality matters. If they had instead cast someone like Gina Carano or anyone with an impressive physical presence (like Linda Hamilton in T2 but not T1) then it wouldn't matter. I'd be saying the same thing if they had instead cast the guy from Napoleon Dynamite in the shape he was in for that movie as a T-800.


They are more like food thieves than rapists, half of them are women, and Inonly recall one of them being huge. Also, they are attacking someone else when Dani gets the drop on them, uses martial arts to stun two or three of them (I don’t remember if she fights the huge guy, but he seems confused or conflicted the whole time anyway, and we earlier saw him fighting with the Resistance later on) before making her speech. And she had a whole bunch of armed people with her just out of sight the entire time. And she knew how the moment would play out because the the other person there was grace, the time traveler who told her how they met.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: Sarah Connor trained Dani, too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/06 04:37:00


   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut




 warboss wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I don’t get why the physical size of the commander of the Resistance matters. Did John Connor defeat Skynet with his muscles?

But the rest of it...sure. Whatever.


I heard there was a scene where future her singlehandedly beats up a whole group of rapists all individually much bigger than her. Was that reviewer mistaken?


I wouldn’t say "mistaken", but they're certainly trying to... present that scene through a certain lens. There's no suggestion at all the three are rapists, for example (and at least one is a woman).

The attackers are starving and reluctantly mugging a kid for food. She disarms two and talks down the third guy.

It's the worst executed scene in the movie, don't get me wrong, but the stuff that's wrong with it isn't this.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

The scene is supposed to set her up as a leader who can unite desperate people and give them a purpose*, not as a badass. She is trained, well fed, and has backup, fighting against starving civilians.

*That's like the movie's jam. Everyone's arc involves finding a purpose to become a better person.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






@Bob and Casualty: Fair enough. Thanks for putting it in better context.

   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut




 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The scene is supposed to set her up as a leader who can unite desperate people and give them a purpose*, not as a badass. She is trained, well fed, and has backup, fighting against starving civilians.

*That's like the movie's jam. Everyone's arc involves finding a purpose to become a better person.


Yeah, I was surprised not to hear more about the "purpose" theme in stuff afterwards, because I thought it was actually quite well woven in overall. I could go along with Carl's family because his fixation on "purpose" made it less of a sentimental thing and more a slightly creepy attempt by a machine to give itself missions, objectives, purpose, within a human framework.

Presumably a result of the multiple writers, but the contrast in how hammy the dialogue in that scene was compared how deft it was in the bit of Sarah talking about John is quite striking.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/06 05:18:58


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

Doesn't he imply that his mission is to infiltrate, so that's why he behaves as human as possible? That he doesn't have human emotions, but he does absorb human values?

I got the impression that without Skynet around to give him orders, he really wasn't interested in killing so much as passing for human.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/06 06:09:53


   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Leicester

Saw it last night, would echo the others on here that it’s pretty good; the action scenes are generally well done (the first car chase in particular), the characters are interesting and have good chemistry and the plot is different enough whilst following the same mould.

With regard to Carl, I think they were trying to build on the “I know now why you cry, but it’s something I can never do” idea from T2; he’s trying to give himself objectives but is also growing beyond his original programming. And I think they did that pretty well. Also, although the comedy felt a little out of tone at times, the jokes were good, particularly Carl’s machine precision applied to his chosen...profession.

In fact the one thing that the franchise has never satisfactorily explored (although they were building toward it in Chronicles) is that if left to evolve independently, AI’s are not automatically genocidal maniacs. That’s just Skynet. Having machines that support humanity against Skynet, or just on their own agenda, could make for some really interesting stories.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/06 08:26:41


DS:80+S+GM+B+I+Pw40k08D+A++WD355R+T(M)DM+
 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






Yup.

I mean, Carl even says that once he jobbed JC ‘there were no more orders’.

And we know from T2, they cannot self Terminate.

So what does it do from there? We know T-800’s have an on/off switch for learning. And I think there’s a certain argument can be made that in order to be a successful infiltration unit, that the deployment default is ‘on’. With a matching argument that for a reprogrammed unit having it switched off, so it cannot deviate from a protection plan.

I put it to Dakkanauts that Carl simply found a way to entertain himself, as his learning mode was on.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Its always nice to see Arnold in the Terminator movies(he was genuinely good in this one), but I can't help but wonder...who reset Carl's switch?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jadenim wrote:


In fact the one thing that the franchise has never satisfactorily explored (although they were building toward it in Chronicles) is that if left to evolve independently, AI’s are not automatically genocidal maniacs. That’s just Skynet. Having machines that support humanity against Skynet, or just on their own agenda, could make for some really interesting stories.


And more robot battles! Can never have too many of those!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/06 20:51:36


Casual gamer, casual fun! 
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






See above, I’m not convinced anyone needed to.

T-800s are Infiltration Units. Which suggests a need for adaptive programming. After all, do you really want to take out a small cell of the Resistance, or embed within and await the opportunity and intelligence to strike a larger force?

And if not, why have a physical learning on/off switch? What purposes does that serve?

So I’m leaning toward it’s default mode is actually ‘on’, with the Terminator 2 T-800 having it switched off in an attempt to limit harm done should the reprogramming not stick.

This is just a fan theory based on the films. I’ve read some Terminator comics from Dark Horse, but am aware their may be more sources to shoot me down elsewhere.

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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

It's an interesting box that James Cameron created: he presented the idea that Terminators can learn, but also expressly presented the idea they are intentionally shipped out with that feature disabled.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/06 22:09:40


 
   
Made in us
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Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

Perhaps Skynet enables that feature when it sends terminators on specific missions, but prefers most units to remain perfectly compliant? The Resistance may not have known how to enable it or wanted to take the risk.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I picture it like the murderous Krusty Doll in the Tree House of Horror.
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






 Ouze wrote:
It's an interesting box that James Cameron created: he presented the idea that Terminators can learn, but also expressly presented the idea they are intentionally shipped out with that feature disabled.


I disagree. The only one we know to have is disabled is the resistance reprogrammed one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Perhaps Skynet enables that feature when it sends terminators on specific missions, but prefers most units to remain perfectly compliant? The Resistance may not have known how to enable it or wanted to take the risk.


This I think is entirely plausible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/06 22:52:55


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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Skynet presets the switch to read-only when they are sent out alone, which is the case for the first two T-800s and "Carl". The resistance merely reprogrammed John's T-800 guardian to protect him.

As far as we know, Carl is acting alone when he "accomplishes his mission" so unless someone has adjusted his switch for him(the guardian needed assistance in the T1000 edition of T2) I don't see how he is able to think as he does in Dark Fate.

That said programs in the real world can contain bugs that produce unexpected behaviour - sometimes going unnoticed for years. With the tell-tale signs of the T-600s, even Skynet needs to revise its designs...

Casual gamer, casual fun! 
   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
It's an interesting box that James Cameron created: he presented the idea that Terminators can learn, but also expressly presented the idea they are intentionally shipped out with that feature disabled.


I disagree. The only one we know to have is disabled is the resistance reprogrammed one.



   
Made in us
[DCM]
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

SamusDrake wrote:
Skynet presets the switch to read-only when they are sent out alone, which is the case for the first two T-800s and "Carl". The resistance merely reprogrammed John's T-800 guardian to protect him.

As far as we know, Carl is acting alone when he "accomplishes his mission" so unless someone has adjusted his switch for him(the guardian needed assistance in the T1000 edition of T2) I don't see how he is able to think as he does in Dark Fate.

That said programs in the real world can contain bugs that produce unexpected behaviour - sometimes going unnoticed for years. With the tell-tale signs of the T-600s, even Skynet needs to revise its designs...


Where is it stated that Skynet sets its time-traveling terminators to read only? I would think they would need to be the most adaptable.

   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!





 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Where is it stated that Skynet sets its time-traveling terminators to read only? I would think they would need to be the most adaptable.


T2, Garage scene. When they're patching each other up.

"I am capable of acknowledging the cunning of the Xenos. I was amused to discover that an Aeldari weapon classification directly translates to 'Mandiblasters'. That is quite clever, that translation." -Acanthophis Serne, "Death Adders" Chapter, seconded to Deathwatch Fortress 'Dacia'. 
   
Made in us
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

In a deleted scene from Terminator 2 - one that James Cameron says he really regrets omitting. I linked it above. It's notable for two reasons:

1.) It's the one that establishes as actual canon that Terminators can learn, so you can't have one without the other.

2.) It's an incredible clever piece of filmmaking. For example, how did they shoot that scene without the cameraman showing up in the mirror? No CGI - Linda Hamilton has a twin sister, and the "mirror" is just a hole in the wall. The cast is on the side you can see, stand-ins are on the side you can't. The second clever use of real-life twins in the movie.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/07 00:12:47


 
   
Made in us
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Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

Ah, thanks. I didn’t see that when I posted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe Carl pulled a Dr. Gero and somehow removed his own “brain” to flip the switch?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/07 00:19:00


   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut




It's a great scene, and as you say an ingenious bit of filmmaking, but it's not considered canon officially, that's the theatrical cut, which papers over the point it should have been.

Tbh though it wouldn't make a ton of sense to send a Terminator back in time like that and then make it incapable of learning, for all the reasons above. It needs to be able to absorb information either to blend in or to effectively pursue a target.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/07 00:57:41


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

I guess it depends on what you consider canon, which is a little slippery but.... they added it back in to the ultra skynet mega edition or whatever later, along with the flashback of her with Kyle Reese's ghost. There have been about 20 different Terminator 2 versions on home media and I think most of them now include it, but some do and some don't.

Is the scenes were Ripley finds out her daughter died canon? It wasn't in the theatrical cut, but added in later and much like T2, generally included as part of the movie and not special features.

If only the theatrical cut is what counts, then neither scene is canon, and while I don't agree with that point of view, I certainly understand and respect it - because it's inarguable, really. RAW vs RAI.




This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/07 03:41:50


 
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






Well, either way it does show the possibility that Carl was set to learn mode, and likely before he was sent out.

So for the purpose of Dark Fate, he is possible as a character.

As to why he started a family? I guess AIs can go insane without a purpose. So why not become nurturing where many humans become murderous?

Sure, it’s remains a bit of a plot hole, but not the gaping one first thought. Best thing for me is that Arnie convinces in the role.

Plus, seeing him and Mackenzie wail on the Rev-9 remains incredibly satisfying!

I mean, in T2 the T-1000 is clearly the superior creation. So the fights are one sided. Here, we get to see a different combat design. One that is simply massively resilient to damage.

So despite it having ten bells knocked out of it by a combat model, and an enhanced soldier? It just keeps going. That to me is a pleasing hark back to Kyle’s original explanation to Sarah.

That they also make him genuinely scary through efficiency is just icing. The way it’s actually kinda charismatic, but switches to ruthless in the blink of an eye is great.

In short, the Rev-9 is a successful new take on the Terminator concept, in the same way way the T-1000 was. It’s more advanced. It’s a better mimic. And they didn’t have to ‘give it four arses’ to keep it scary.

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SoCal

What does someone who is not like other men do when he wants to fit in? He gets a family, grows a beard, buys some guns, ...and then goes into his dream job, but he can still 'pass' because he pushes his customers towards heteronormative purchases.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/07 07:33:32


   
 
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