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Made in gb
Stabbin' Skarboy





crewe

Usually units that dont have weapon options and have inbuilt unique wargear tend to have these sort of weapons as 0pts. This isnt always a clear cut pattern but as an example Electro-priest have their staves/gauntlets at no cost. So the Pteraxii talons may have no cost associated with them and same with the flechette carbines and phoshor torch.

Looking back from the start Infiltrators we what 18pts base then 2pts for the flechette blaster and 6pts for the taser goad putting them at 26pts a model which was quite extortionate! Now they are 15pts for the same loadout which is nearly a 50% cut in cost.

The Skystalkers dont look like they have the talons and no melee weapons at all except on the Alpha (and if he can just have a standard carbine then thats the better and cheaper option anyway) so they wont have any additional blot for unwanted melee weapons. I can see them coming in at 18pts a model including wargear. If we compare them to other multishot jump troops you have Scourges at 12ppm with shard carbines, Swooping Hawks at 13ppm with lasblasters, and probably the closest comparison are XV25 Stealth Battlesuits that come in at 24ppm with burst cannons with no support systems.

Stealth suits have the same kind of statline roughly, both have 2 wounds and attacks, the same strength, a simular gun (which id say the burst cannon is better at just 1 less shot but 2 higher strength). Stealth suits do have worse movement, WS (doesnt really matter if they arent a combat unit primarily so is largely moot on the Skystalkers...) BS but they have higher toughness and leadership. In that 24ppm package your getting an innate -1 to hit and forward deployment with infiltrate.

Id value a -1 to hit and infiltrate at a higher cost to a unit than marginally better movement and base stats in WS and BS. I dont think Skystalkers will rock in at 15ppm, but more in the field of 17/18ppm.

An Intercessor is only 5pts more than a Tactical and vastly better with 1 extra wound and attack and then a better base weapon in the bolt rifle / auto bolt rifle, etc. So I cant see them being much more than Infiltrators tbh. Who knows they might get a Khinerai like ability from AoS when after they shoot/fight they can make a 6" move straight after.

The Sterylizors are a different kettle of fish to predict however. Flamers are infamously known to be one of the most over costed weapons out there and as Admech we dont have a large amount of them, we have the cognis flamer at 7pts and the incendine combustor at 15pts. Out of the two the phosphor torch is more inline with the combustor with the same range and same AP. Ignores cover is kind of a hard rule to balance pts wise as cover is mainly....... useless in 40k, some units dont care about it, other cant even get it and most find it hard fitting the whole unit in to get the benefits. Prepared postions is usually the only source of wide spread cover barring Shroudpsalm and Tide of Shadows. And assuming the Sterylizors will deepstrike in turn 2 (if they have that rule) then those type of abilities wont be inaffect.

So they either price the base model super cheap like Tankbusters and Swooping Hawks to include the hefty price of their weapon or the weapon itself is either free or a small cost. Id put Sterylizors at 20-22ppm with everything included. They are already kind of competing with Sulphur Hounds with being fast moving chaff clearers and I think with Hounds will be a bit better at it damage wise if their pistols are basically longer ranger or faster firing phosphor blast pistols which are str 5 ap 1 and ignores cover.

Their combat potential seems actualy ok but its more of an after thought, how often will they make a charge for deep strike and would they want to, they are oly t3 4+ save models.

What I think thatll really sell these Pteraxii is the stratagems linked to them and any unseen rules weve yet to see on their datasheets and in the book itself. Im a Stygies player so I dunno how they will fit into my list, maybe replacing my transuranic arquebus squad and infiltrators so that I have a more efficient backline clearer and character hunter. A potential 10d6 auto hits against a support character, key objective holding unit or a weakened vehicle in the enemies deployment could be clutch.

How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?  
   
Made in gb
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UK

 Tiberius501 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I doubt they have deep strike, otherwise it would have been mentioned in the rules preview.


I don’t think I’ve ever seen a unit with a jump pack not get some kind of deep strike rule.


Celestine and her Geminae wave sadly

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Voss wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Points will determine their value - but its hard not to bristle at the rules creep.


It really bothers me that 8th edition has gotten to the point that a 10 man unit (yeah, unit size assumption, but...) can generate 50 shots. And if they do indeed deep strike, its functionally unstoppable, and then they pew-pew enemies into submission. Not from the strength 3 shots, but from the unending dice rolls.

And once you factor in rerolls and the hit/wound/save system... maybe its me, but given that there are probably a couple dozen units on the table, if resolving a single unit's actions for the turn can result in rolling (including rerolls) more than a 100 dice, you've gone and done something stupid with game design. At this point GW is deliberating wasting people's time as the central game gimmick. Instead, weapon stats should be short tables base on target toughness and the number of models in the shooting unit- just remove X number of enemy models. It would probably cut game times by at least a quarter, rather than constantly rolling and re-rolling those buckets of dice- and all the rerolls push more and more to a predictable result anyway.


Well, functionally unstoppable except by screening, deep strike interrupt stratagems, or stratagems that require deep strikers to be over 12" away, which both marines and CSM now commonly have access to.

This unit is solidly better than many existing units with the same purview.

This unt is still not going to be super great unless undercosted.
   
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The gun range is too long for most of those to matter, though it should be obvious that the deep strike angle is the least of my problems with the unit.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Voss wrote:
The gun range is too long for most of those to matter, though it should be obvious that the deep strike angle is the least of my problems with the unit.


um...nope. They have 12" range guns.

-Every deep strike reaction strat/ability I know of that has limited range is 12" range. Admech one, SM one, Tau one are 12", eldar one is unlimited IIRC.
-Every deep strike denial rule I know of is "enemies must deploy over 12" away." (the alpha legion one, the GSC character guy, the rule for the new SM scout primaris guys/characters, etc)
-Screening is pretty easy if you keep the units you care about 3" behind the front edge of your screen, they're safe.

It should be pretty simple for most armies to have an answer ready to go for these guys.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:
Voss wrote:
The gun range is too long for most of those to matter, though it should be obvious that the deep strike angle is the least of my problems with the unit.


um...nope. They have 12" range guns.

-Every deep strike reaction strat/ability I know of that has limited range is 12" range. Admech one, SM one, Tau one are 12", eldar one is unlimited IIRC.
-Every deep strike denial rule I know of is "enemies must deploy over 12" away." (the alpha legion one, the GSC character guy, the rule for the new SM scout primaris guys/characters, etc)
-Screening is pretty easy if you keep the units you care about 3" behind the front edge of your screen, they're safe.

It should be pretty simple for most armies to have an answer ready to go for these guys.


Your talking about thr phospore torche, he's talking about the flashet carbines which are 24 inch range and 5 shoots per model so 25 shoots at BS 3+ from a 5 man unit. Your not screening 24 inches of shooting away, however they also seem to be built to hoose screens aswell with the stats of just volumes of weak dice. & MW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/20 14:26:10


 
   
Made in us
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Would have preferred something like 2 shots, make 2 wound rolls for each hit. Cuts down on the number of dice while preserving the volume of shots element.

Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Ice_can wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Voss wrote:
The gun range is too long for most of those to matter, though it should be obvious that the deep strike angle is the least of my problems with the unit.


um...nope. They have 12" range guns.

-Every deep strike reaction strat/ability I know of that has limited range is 12" range. Admech one, SM one, Tau one are 12", eldar one is unlimited IIRC.
-Every deep strike denial rule I know of is "enemies must deploy over 12" away." (the alpha legion one, the GSC character guy, the rule for the new SM scout primaris guys/characters, etc)
-Screening is pretty easy if you keep the units you care about 3" behind the front edge of your screen, they're safe.

It should be pretty simple for most armies to have an answer ready to go for these guys.


Your talking about thr phospore torche, he's talking about the flashet carbines which are 24 inch range and 5 shoots per model so 25 shoots at BS 3+ from a 5 man unit. Your not screening 24 inches of shooting away, however they also seem to be built to hoose screens aswell with the stats of just volumes of weak dice. & MW.


I mean...that's less dice than you have to roll for a lot of units though.

Like a lot of units. You know ork boyz go up to 30 man squads right? 60 shots for a unit of shoota boyz, and 90 melee attacks?
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm really not bothered about a unit having 5 S3 shots. When the model is say 18-20 points (give or take) there are going to be plenty of ways to get more effective shooting than this.

The issue is flying over a vehicle and doing a mortal wound on a 3+. Do not pass go, do not collect your invulnerable save.
If they are say 18-20 points that's just daft. If however they jump to say 30 points - to be pointed on the assumption you are making use of this rule - they are going to be far too fragile and rubbish as a result (without as yet unknown synergy).

As for the flamer, I assume someone at GW went "we've made Ruststalkers 11 points and people are still not biting (which is really a function of internal Ad Mech synergy than the unit itself). Hang on, how about we trade in the mortal wounds on their blades for AP-1 flat spiky feet, give them an extra 4" movement and fly, and a 12" flamer also with AP-1. That has to work surely."

Similar story - 20~ points a model and its good. 30 points and they suck. Intercept is obviously valid - but it hasn't yet eliminated deep strike from the game. Saying "just screen" seems a stretch, because with an S4/AP-1 flamer and a few S5/AP-1 attacks these units *want* to go into screens, or backfield objective holders/support units. Its not that they are going to cleave through your lines, its more the creep thats the issue.
   
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People are really losing their minds over the mortal wounds. I don't see it as an issue at all.

They aren't flyers with huge movement range. Even if they have deep strike, you just shoot them before they can move again. I've never heard of anyone complaining about shooting sicarians after they inevitably fail their charge and give away a free unit kill. I really don't see these being super effective unless they have some other movement or charge enhancing rule (for the flamers) that they haven't shown.
   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut






Quasistellar wrote:
People are really losing their minds over the mortal wounds. I don't see it as an issue at all.


This is DakkaDakka. If you don't declare a new unit trash then you have to hypothesize on scenarios to make the unit as broken as possible so you can then whinge about a comparative unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/20 18:22:38


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Quasistellar wrote:
People are really losing their minds over the mortal wounds. I don't see it as an issue at all.

They aren't flyers with huge movement range. Even if they have deep strike, you just shoot them before they can move again. I've never heard of anyone complaining about shooting sicarians after they inevitably fail their charge and give away a free unit kill. I really don't see these being super effective unless they have some other movement or charge enhancing rule (for the flamers) that they haven't shown.

Because MW are the most unfun and unbalanced rule to hand out, got a eldar T6 vehical take 3 mortal wounds got a T9, 2+, 5+ LOW take 3 MW.
It renders every defensive profile worthless short of FNP's which are very uncommon for vehicals not to mention they can do this ability in addition to shooting, so 12 inch move with MW, Flying unit with passable melee, so wrap and trap, then bounce to the next while one again throwing 2/3 MW.

Also they have a 4+ save 2 wounds, not everyone is playing Spacemarines who get enough attacks to be able to one round your units with troops.
Slightly more concerning is we haven't seen what the build yoir own Forgeworld bonuses will be as I could easily see a FNP as an option.
   
Made in us
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Ice_can wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
People are really losing their minds over the mortal wounds. I don't see it as an issue at all.

They aren't flyers with huge movement range. Even if they have deep strike, you just shoot them before they can move again. I've never heard of anyone complaining about shooting sicarians after they inevitably fail their charge and give away a free unit kill. I really don't see these being super effective unless they have some other movement or charge enhancing rule (for the flamers) that they haven't shown.

Because MW are the most unfun and unbalanced rule to hand out, got a eldar T6 vehical take 3 mortal wounds got a T9, 2+, 5+ LOW take 3 MW.
It renders every defensive profile worthless short of FNP's which are very uncommon for vehicals not to mention they can do this ability in addition to shooting, so 12 inch move with MW, Flying unit with passable melee, so wrap and trap, then bounce to the next while one again throwing 2/3 MW.

Also they have a 4+ save 2 wounds, not everyone is playing Spacemarines who get enough attacks to be able to one round your units with troops.
Slightly more concerning is we haven't seen what the build yoir own Forgeworld bonuses will be as I could easily see a FNP as an option.


I mean..

Every defensive profile except for wounds. And ignore wound abilities.

Definitely agree that rule is a bit obnoxious, I'm just not seeing it being something they'll get to use often at all given how nearly every unit like that works.

Drop, shoot, get popped. Any ability not in the "Shoot" Category for a unit like that is just kinda wasted points, unless it's melee on a unit that can boost charge range.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




You don't need to deep strike the grenade guys. Just have them on the table and move up as necessary. (You don't even really need to DS the flamer guys - although you might want to in certain matchups). Sure they probably won't get to do any mortal wounds on turn 1 (unless your opponent steams straight at you) and yes, they can be killed... like every unit in the game. Units with "kill me or potentially take disproportionate damage">"kill me, it doesn't much matter". Its not like these are going to be your only threat. If they are shooting these turn 1 they are not shooting your heavy support choices, your chicken robots etc. They are not clearing your screens.

But you have a unit where you can inflict potentially very high numbers of mortal wounds very reliably on any vehicle that goes vaguely in the middle of the table (or just chuck 10 dice at a character and hope you roll a bit above average etc - plenty of characters out there with 4 wounds). The wings may make them a bit annoying to hide - but terrain permitting, you may be able to move up the board or apply pressure while staying relatively hidden LOS wise.

As said - its all about points. They can be comically overpowered at 10 points per model, and terrible at 30 points per model. But the creep is still there.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Sentineil wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
People are really losing their minds over the mortal wounds. I don't see it as an issue at all.


This is DakkaDakka. If you don't declare a new unit trash then you have to hypothesize on scenarios to make the unit as broken as possible so you can then whinge about a comparative unit.
Are you suggesting that all-or-nothing thinking is a feature of Dakka specifically? I am sad to say the standard is far, far lower than what is seen around this forum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
As said - its all about points. They can be comically overpowered at 10 points per model, and terrible at 30 points per model. But the creep is still there.
Unfortunately if one assumes that every new unit will be over/under powered they would be more right than not when it comes to GW.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/20 23:32:27


Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
Made in au
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






Man... I really want this PA to release! I wanna see all the juicy new AdMech rules!
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




There was prior to quarantine some play with Slaaneshi demons including the use of Keepers I believe.

Edit: I think I responded to a comment that was just way up thread mistakenly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 15:39:52


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Have we still seen zilch in terms of the new Daemon rules? It seems bizarre to me.
   
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Brian888 wrote:
Have we still seen zilch in terms of the new Daemon rules? It seems bizarre to me.

It shouldn't. You're not the star faction of the book. You're just in it.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







And most rules previews come out once the book is up for pre-order - we've really only seen bits and pieces of unit stats for AdMech, plus a lot of descriptive text, when you think about it.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
Brian888 wrote:
Have we still seen zilch in terms of the new Daemon rules? It seems bizarre to me.

It shouldn't. You're not the star faction of the book. You're just in it.


Which is not how it should be. Earlier PA books seemed relatively split fairly among the different factions. Using PA as a jumping board for a whole line of new models just skews everything.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I sort of thought we would get "kinda weird Covid pre-order" this weekend - but I guess we are going for "could be 9th edition, could just be a big Necron..." instead.

(Am kind of suspect it will be 9th - because who is going to care about Engine War, Spider, Pariah if so? I guess if its one of those "its basically the same but for these six keyword changes" and everything continues as is editions, but... still nah?)

But yeah - You would expect Daemons and Knights etc to at least get an article devoted to their rules, no matter if they spent 3 minutes work on them compared with the Ad Mech. (Ad Mech will also presumably get an article indicating stratagems and rules etc beyond "here is the new models".)

Maybe next week with a 30th release?
   
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Brian888 wrote:
Have we still seen zilch in terms of the new Daemon rules? It seems bizarre to me.

There's just Deamon rules in the book, they didn't know when they were going to release it but had shown models of AdMech guys.

Nothing bizarre about it at all. We'll get a hint at what the daemon rules are when the thing goes on preorder on the 30th.
So Daemon rules first week in June.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 00:37:36


 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Have they posted any AdMech rules not related to new models? I can't remember.

Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Tyel wrote:
I sort of thought we would get "kinda weird Covid pre-order" this weekend - but I guess we are going for "could be 9th edition, could just be a big Necron..." instead.

(Am kind of suspect it will be 9th - because who is going to care about Engine War, Spider, Pariah if so? I guess if its one of those "its basically the same but for these six keyword changes" and everything continues as is editions, but... still nah?)

But yeah - You would expect Daemons and Knights etc to at least get an article devoted to their rules, no matter if they spent 3 minutes work on them compared with the Ad Mech. (Ad Mech will also presumably get an article indicating stratagems and rules etc beyond "here is the new models".)

Maybe next week with a 30th release?


The price increase article also says that new preorders will go up on 30th for release on the 6th. Obviously no idea what exactly they'll release as of yet.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Have they posted any AdMech rules not related to new models? I can't remember.


No rules previews from engine war yet.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







 p5freak wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Have they posted any AdMech rules not related to new models? I can't remember.


No rules previews from engine war yet.


Yeah, all that've been seen have been stat blocks or rules relating to the new AdMech models and weapons.

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

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God I just want a small snippet of what Daemons are getting. Anything.
They need a rules boost way more than a lot of the other factions.
   
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 dan2026 wrote:
God I just want a small snippet of what Daemons are getting. Anything.
They need a rules boost way more than a lot of the other factions.


I think is just a product of the drawn-out release schedule they're under. Previous PA releases have included mainly only 2 factions and a model each on each side, so they get their respective model previews one at a time, then when pre-order get's announced they get their rules previews for PA the following week. In this case what we've seen so far is a LOT of admech previews for units that will be included with PA because it makes sense to put them in a book, but aren't actually part of the overarching narrative like previous PA model releases.

Now the engine war pre-order has been announced, next week I expect us to see some previews for all the factions involved in the book. Then on the 30th they'll move on to the next PA book.

The big spanner in the works to this whole deduction is whatever comes out of this big preview tomorrow, surely whatever it is has to come after all the PA books are out though? Unless it really is just silent king related for the last PA book....which as significant as that is, would fall below my hype radar as galaxy-spanning twists worthy of all the countdowns they're putting up goes.
   
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Engine War isn't up for pre-order yet, unless you mean you think it'll go up tomorrow.

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

My Twitch stream - going live at 7pm GMT Tuesday & Thursday, 12pm Sunday (work permitting).

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
 
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