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Karol wrote:

My therapists has much bigger problems, but when I started w40k he actualy okeyed it. But good job making fun at someone with mental problems. Very classy.

Karol, nobody is making fun of mental health issues. I think its fair to say that most people posting on this forum have them in one shape or another.

What we're saying is that you need to get control of yours because right now you're on a narcissistic spiral of "ME ME ME ME ME ME ME", which is not good for you or anyone else around you long term, and that its being exacerbated by the exceptionally toxic community of players you yourself have described in your local 40k scene. Believe it or not we're actually worried about you.

Your running around screaming "feth EVERYONE, I GOT MINE YOU CAN ALL CHOKE ON IT" is not indicative of a good emotional balance.

So this is not some sort of top tier competative game or anything, also mistakes were made. Its nids vs marines so not exactly a paragon of examples.

But it just shows what difference a single CM makes in a bottom tier trait army (black templars) without relic/FW dreds or anything like that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whPgrEi15R0&t=3727s

 Argive wrote:
So this is not some sort of top tier competative game or anything, also mistakes were made. Its nids vs marines so not exactly a paragon of examples.

But it just shows what difference a single CM makes in a bottom tier trait army (black templars) without relic/FW dreds or anything like that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whPgrEi15R0&t=3727s

Here is the thing, I play Black Templars and I do not think they are bottom tier with their traits. Sure their rerolls to charge and 5+ against mortal wounds isn't great but the ability to both auto-hit and auto-wound on tohit rolls of 6 against infantry while in the assault doctrine is pretty awesome and considering that in the assault doctrine your assault intercessors are -2AP it gets fairly nasty.

At the same time I do have a hard time thinking of a Chapter that has worse traits I just feel dirty calling that the worst...

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


It's not the players, by and large, that are being attacked. It's GW for releasing such garbage balance.
.

Scroll up a couple posts to see non-marine players blame marine players for A) Not getting much sympathy when Marines were bad, and B) Earning the enmity they're getting now that Marines are good.

Pointing out the fallacy of SM players saying their army was weak throughout 8th or only top tier for a brief stint of time is not denying them sympathy for when their army was bad (I can't remember anytime literally EVER where a Marine army was ever as bad as bottom tier armies). Furthermore the enmity isn't directed at them, it is at GW who keeps pushing one faction more than any other. The only enmity a SM player receives is when they downplay how OP a unit is....say like Eradicators being the best (read as most point efficient) anti-tank unit in the game or saying ridiculous things like "well our army was only top tier for half the edition".

And it is likewise not solely a SM thing. When Tau were spamming riptides like it was going out of style, people complained, when Eldar could drop models on the table and basically be more OP than custom built lists, people complained.

Hell, I have sat here and listened to people complain that the Ork stompa is too powerful.....arguably the most useless unit in the game....

People will complain about everyone's factions including their own. The only thing that matters is if you are providing facts/figures and are open minded enough to admit when you were wrong. As an example, I myself over was wrong on how powerful the SSAG was going to be. Luckily for most players GW nerfed it into an early grave.

SemperMortis wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


It's not the players, by and large, that are being attacked. It's GW for releasing such garbage balance.
.

Scroll up a couple posts to see non-marine players blame marine players for A) Not getting much sympathy when Marines were bad, and B) Earning the enmity they're getting now that Marines are good.

Pointing out the fallacy of SM players saying their army was weak throughout 8th or only top tier for a brief stint of time is not denying them sympathy for when their army was bad (I can't remember anytime literally EVER where a Marine army was ever as bad as bottom tier armies). Furthermore the enmity isn't directed at them, it is at GW who keeps pushing one faction more than any other. The only enmity a SM player receives is when they downplay how OP a unit is....say like Eradicators being the best (read as most point efficient) anti-tank unit in the game or saying ridiculous things like "well our army was only top tier for half the edition".

And it is likewise not solely a SM thing. When Tau were spamming riptides like it was going out of style, people complained, when Eldar could drop models on the table and basically be more OP than custom built lists, people complained.

Hell, I have sat here and listened to people complain that the Ork stompa is too powerful.....arguably the most useless unit in the game....

People will complain about everyone's factions including their own. The only thing that matters is if you are providing facts/figures and are open minded enough to admit when you were wrong. As an example, I myself over was wrong on how powerful the SSAG was going to be. Luckily for most players GW nerfed it into an early grave.

In response to the bolded bit, bottom 11 win rates for 2020 season contains:

Salamanders
Space wolves
Black templars
Ultramarines
Dark angels

The only 2 real armies lower than dark angels were death guard and ynnari.

2019 season if we again ignore obvious "best in faction" attempts like the pure fortifications or pure titan lists, bottom 10 has:
Deathwatch
Space wolves
Blood angels
Grey knights
Dark angels

Dark angels were the lowest win rate for a codex printed army.

Marines often frequent the bottom of the tables, but it's not what gets attention.

That is because it is a misleading statistic.

Yes, a few of the Space Marine sub-factions have been at the bottom of tournament results but tournament players are not loyal to any one army so they hop to the most powerful version of what ever they can play. Extrapolating Salamanders, Black Templars and Ultramarines out makes no difference because they share a codex with Iron Hands and Raven Guard. Tournament players are not running the first three and that leaves you with die hard fans who are not looking to be the best, they are just looking to have fun with their favorite faction.

Grey Knights don't count in the conversation because they hardly share units with the Space Marine codex, they are effectively an entirely different army. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Deathwatch all have more in line with the core codex but again if a tournament player can jump to any which faction they want when it comes to Space Marines due to the shared pool of models the only ones playing those armies in tournaments is the die hard fans, not the most competitive players.

Hot take, different colours do not count as different factions. Tell me when Snakebites or nephrek even exist in the tournament space.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hot take, different colours do not count as different factions. Tell me when Snakebites or nephrek even exist in the tournament space.

Weird, I recall blood angels, dark angels, death watch and space wolves all being stand alone codex with unique rules. Let me know when snakebites get a codex and you have a point.

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hot take, different colours do not count as different factions. Tell me when Snakebites or nephrek even exist in the tournament space.

Weird, I recall blood angels, dark angels, death watch and space wolves all being stand alone codex with unique rules. Let me know when snakebites get a codex and you have a point.

Incase the plot has gone overhead, that is the point.

Salamanders have won more tournaments than any other army from what I've seen so they could be very powerful but hard to play if they've got a low overall winning percentage.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hot take, different colours do not count as different factions. Tell me when Snakebites or nephrek even exist in the tournament space.

Weird, I recall blood angels, dark angels, death watch and space wolves all being stand alone codex with unique rules. Let me know when snakebites get a codex and you have a point.

Incase the plot has gone overhead, that is the point.

Good, would you also disagree dark angels being bottom makes "marines" have a bottom tier army then? Or are you happy to stand by your stance that by having a different codex they're utterly separate (which to me is correct).

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So this is not some sort of top tier competative game or anything, also mistakes were made. Its nids vs marines so not exactly a paragon of examples.

But it just shows what difference a single CM makes in a bottom tier trait army (black templars) without relic/FW dreds or anything like that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whPgrEi15R0&t=3727s

Here is the thing, I play Black Templars and I do not think they are bottom tier with their traits. Sure their rerolls to charge and 5+ against mortal wounds isn't great but the ability to both auto-hit and auto-wound on tohit rolls of 6 against infantry while in the assault doctrine is pretty awesome and considering that in the assault doctrine your assault intercessors are -2AP it gets fairly nasty.

At the same time I do have a hard time thinking of a Chapter that has worse traits I just feel dirty calling that the worst...

CM + doctrines on its own is so potent it makes average random collection of various SM units into a steamroller...
This list only had only one unit of eradicators in it too... Some assult intercessors, couple impulsors and a repulsor plus heap of characters. tbf it seemed on paper like you average sort of list and no cheesey spamming. But then all it takes is a single CM + doctrines, strats, WL trait and litanies and what have you, the resulting force multiplication thing is bannanas..

October cant come quick enough. Really hope Necrons get some obnoxious stuff we can complain about instead coz its just tiring seeing this play out over and over..

 Argive wrote:


October cant come quick enough. Really hope Necrons get some obnoxious stuff we can complain about instead coz its just tiring seeing this play out over and over..

Are you sure about that?

 Argive wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Argive wrote:
There are no winners here today friend..

Actually there are , the gw Arms Dealer allways wins.

Touche....

I'd rather have all the dexes at once to See this mystical good balance the playtesters seemed so genuinly happy about until they saw the patchwork to hold the Players over until their respective dexes release...

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Argive wrote:


October cant come quick enough. Really hope Necrons get some obnoxious stuff we can complain about instead coz its just tiring seeing this play out over and over..

Are you sure about that?

 Argive wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Argive wrote:
There are no winners here today friend..

Actually there are , the gw Arms Dealer allways wins.

Touche....

I'd rather have all the dexes at once to See this mystical good balance the playtesters seemed so genuinly happy about until they saw the patchwork to hold the Players over until their respective dexes release...

now that's hilarious, GW balance....damn I hadnt laughed like that since the last time someone made such a ridiculous statement.

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hot take, different colours do not count as different factions. Tell me when Snakebites or nephrek even exist in the tournament space.

Weird, I recall blood angels, dark angels, death watch and space wolves all being stand alone codex with unique rules. Let me know when snakebites get a codex and you have a point.

Incase the plot has gone overhead, that is the point.

Good, would you also disagree dark angels being bottom makes "marines" have a bottom tier army then? Or are you happy to stand by your stance that by having a different codex they're utterly separate (which to me is correct).

Are 90%+ of the dark angels units basically the same as Space Marines just with a different paint scheme and a couple extra glyphs?
They are?

Then no, DA are just a different sub faction of Space Marines. SM's can play any number of different chapters by just saying "I know they are green, but they are Iron Hands now" and they are already basically WYSIWYG

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hot take, different colours do not count as different factions. Tell me when Snakebites or nephrek even exist in the tournament space.

Weird, I recall blood angels, dark angels, death watch and space wolves all being stand alone codex with unique rules. Let me know when snakebites get a codex and you have a point.

Incase the plot has gone overhead, that is the point.

Good, would you also disagree dark angels being bottom makes "marines" have a bottom tier army then? Or are you happy to stand by your stance that by having a different codex they're utterly separate (which to me is correct).

Are 90%+ of the dark angels units basically the same as Space Marines just with a different paint scheme and a couple extra glyphs?
They are?

Then no, DA are just a different sub faction of Space Marines. SM's can play any number of different chapters by just saying "I know they are green, but they are Iron Hands now" and they are already basically WYSIWYG

which is stupid, jumping ship to get the best rules is fething moronic.

And it happens all the time and nobody really cares in friendly games. In tournaments they aren't allowed to care either There is usually no rules against an army having to be the specific paint scheme.

Buffing gave me a list idea, and brought this back to the original question. Most of my lists are pretty much Calgar + Tiggy for HQ's. It's what I've been doing for 20+ years. The Indomitus Box got me playing (in my head) with the bladeguard in an Impulsor, which led to the Bladguard Cap, LT, Tiggy, and Squad in an Impulsor - the realization Elites are 0-6 because of the Command Squad changes made me think about swapping Tiggy with the Ancient in an Impulsor - anyway long story short, I tried to make that list again. The first time I didn't really know what to do with about a quarter of the points and left a bunch of them in a big bucket called Repulsor Executioner so they were SOMEWHERE and somewhere that reminded me of what they were there for.

I swapped some stuff around - ended up with Tiggy, Bladeguard Cap, Lt, squad, 1x5 Aggressors, 2x5 Assault Intercessors, 2x5 Intercessors, 1x5 Bolter Inceptors, 1x3 Eradicators, and 2 Impulsors (1 Bellicatus, 1 Shield Dome) - and Guilliman.

The idea was to run three blobs with a potentially a couple outliers (not outriders)

The Bladeguard all hop in the Shield Dome and run around.

Some Assault Intercessors hop in the other one.

The Dakka Inceptors are to deep strike/counter "dirty trick"

That was the long part of the story(sorry) to get to this part -

Gman, Aggressors, and Eradicators all run together. Tiggy is a little better than 50/50 to end up here (-1 to hit the Gravis wounds you have to whittle away to get to G-Man feels even more frustrating). The other 1x5 Assault Intercessors could potentially tag along, but only so much fits in his bubble.

Gman and the Gravis synergize very well. G is Chapter Master and Lieutenant all in one, and I still have a Cap/LT bubble for a second blob. Plus he boosts Advancing. So the 3 inch slower Gravis are now only 1" slower, and only if they roll a 1 for their advance, add the rerolls and the advance and fire assault penalties are further mitigated.

Now I don't do the skew list but I did realize surrounding G Man with Aggressors and 3x3 Eradicators suddenly gets very nasty very fast. If this sticks I wouldn't be surprised to see G make a comeback?

Eradicators are cheap and good. Spammed Eradicators and Aggressors with Guilliman making them faster than normal troops AND reducing the penalty for it makes them a little wild.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hot take, different colours do not count as different factions. Tell me when Snakebites or nephrek even exist in the tournament space.

Weird, I recall blood angels, dark angels, death watch and space wolves all being stand alone codex with unique rules. Let me know when snakebites get a codex and you have a point.

Incase the plot has gone overhead, that is the point.

Good, would you also disagree dark angels being bottom makes "marines" have a bottom tier army then? Or are you happy to stand by your stance that by having a different codex they're utterly separate (which to me is correct).

Are 90%+ of the dark angels units basically the same as Space Marines just with a different paint scheme and a couple extra glyphs?
They are?

Then no, DA are just a different sub faction of Space Marines. SM's can play any number of different chapters by just saying "I know they are green, but they are Iron Hands now" and they are already basically WYSIWYG

Excellent, marines were the worst army of 2019 and bottom 3 2020 if dark angels are simply "marines".

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hot take, different colours do not count as different factions. Tell me when Snakebites or nephrek even exist in the tournament space.

Weird, I recall blood angels, dark angels, death watch and space wolves all being stand alone codex with unique rules. Let me know when snakebites get a codex and you have a point.

So 40k should be pay to win? No stand-alone codex + supplement your sub-faction can rot? SW and SM share 200 datasheets, Mephrit and Sautekh share 60. Index Imperium included all non-FW SM units and could do so again if you removed pictures and fluff. Release codices and campaign books without matched play rules and have them focus on the fluff, art, minis and crusade and narrative rules. Let CA handle all the balance sensitive matched play rules like Stratagems, Relics, WL traits and pts. Release any updated indexes along with CA or let them wait until next CA if they are not quite ready. Make a document where any playtester or developer can post faction issues to be fixed come next index and/or CA update.

 kingheff wrote:
Salamanders have won more tournaments than any other army from what I've seen so they could be very powerful but hard to play if they've got a low overall winning percentage.

Bad in 8th, but became good in 9th with tactical reserves, Eradicators and smaller tables. They have an amazing WR now.

 vict0988 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hot take, different colours do not count as different factions. Tell me when Snakebites or nephrek even exist in the tournament space.

Weird, I recall blood angels, dark angels, death watch and space wolves all being stand alone codex with unique rules. Let me know when snakebites get a codex and you have a point.

So 40k should be pay to win? No stand-alone codex + supplement your sub-faction can rot? SW and SM share 200 datasheets, Mephrit and Sautekh share 60. Index Imperium included all non-FW SM units and could do so again if you removed pictures and fluff. Release codices and campaign books without matched play rules and have them focus on the fluff, art, minis and crusade and narrative rules. Let CA handle all the balance sensitive matched play rules like Stratagems, Relics, WL traits and pts. Release any updated indexes along with CA or let them wait until next CA if they are not quite ready. Make a document where any playtester or developer can post faction issues to be fixed come next index and/or CA update.

 kingheff wrote:
Salamanders have won more tournaments than any other army from what I've seen so they could be very powerful but hard to play if they've got a low overall winning percentage.

Bad in 8th, but became good in 9th with tactical reserves, Eradicators and smaller tables. They have an amazing WR now.

Didn't Index include all the Chaos datasheets too? So WE/EC/TK/DG/CSM are all the same? And they have Marine in the name, so they must all be Marines too? You can make the distinction as broad or as narrow as you want, but it works both ways. If you're going to blame IH meta as Marines in general, you can't really argue DA as Marines Meta isnt just as honest.

Dudeface wrote:


In response to the bolded bit, bottom 11 win rates for 2020 season contains:

Salamanders
Space wolves
Black templars
Ultramarines
Dark angels

The only 2 real armies lower than dark angels were death guard and ynnari.

2019 season if we again ignore obvious "best in faction" attempts like the pure fortifications or pure titan lists, bottom 10 has:
Deathwatch
Space wolves
Blood angels
Grey knights
Dark angels

Dark angels were the lowest win rate for a codex printed army.

Marines often frequent the bottom of the tables, but it's not what gets attention.

Tournaments results are not the whole truth though. Tournament lists are based on a style of playing that is NOT the majority of 40k gaming, not to mention the house rules (including time limitations) that completely alter the game experience.

In any casual to semi-competitive game SM are and always have been extremely solid because they don't need skew lists to work. Heck my SW without doctrines were way easier to play than orks in 8th edition, definitely stronger, and yet codex orks was considered solid mid tier and codex SW bottom tier because of some tournament results and a few skew lists. I remember during index times a good number of orks high results in tournaments, and yet index orks were indeed the weakest orks I've ever seen since 3rd edition. But one single built in the specific setting of tournaments was so anti meta to achieve some good results.

Not long ago we had SW among the most effective SM chapters due to some tournament results that were affected by a mistake in a FAQ that was immediately fixed.

Never consider tournament results alone to discuss the state of a faction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Racerguy180 wrote:
which is stupid, jumping ship to get the best rules is fething moronic.

For standalone armies like DA, SW or BA maybe, in fact they're more than just a SM chapter, they're actually independent armies with their own codex. I don't see any problem in vanilla marines switching chapters though, it's the same thing that ork, tau, eldar, drukhari, necrons, sisters, tyranids, etc do all the time and no one complains. Changing codex could be moronic, switching subfactions within the same codex it's not, it adds longevity and variety to the game for people like me that hate playing the same lists over and over again.

Breton wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hot take, different colours do not count as different factions. Tell me when Snakebites or nephrek even exist in the tournament space.

Weird, I recall blood angels, dark angels, death watch and space wolves all being stand alone codex with unique rules. Let me know when snakebites get a codex and you have a point.

So 40k should be pay to win? No stand-alone codex + supplement your sub-faction can rot? SW and SM share 200 datasheets, Mephrit and Sautekh share 60. Index Imperium included all non-FW SM units and could do so again if you removed pictures and fluff. Release codices and campaign books without matched play rules and have them focus on the fluff, art, minis and crusade and narrative rules. Let CA handle all the balance sensitive matched play rules like Stratagems, Relics, WL traits and pts. Release any updated indexes along with CA or let them wait until next CA if they are not quite ready. Make a document where any playtester or developer can post faction issues to be fixed come next index and/or CA update.

 kingheff wrote:
Salamanders have won more tournaments than any other army from what I've seen so they could be very powerful but hard to play if they've got a low overall winning percentage.

Bad in 8th, but became good in 9th with tactical reserves, Eradicators and smaller tables. They have an amazing WR now.

Didn't Index include all the Chaos datasheets too? So WE/EC/TK/DG/CSM are all the same? And they have Marine in the name, so they must all be Marines too? You can make the distinction as broad or as narrow as you want, but it works both ways. If you're going to blame IH meta as Marines in general, you can't really argue DA as Marines Meta isnt just as honest.

Chaos Index included everything Chaos, including Heretic Astartes. Index Imperium 1 was Adeptus Astartes, Index Imperium 2 was non-Astartes Imperium units. BA and DA successors would benefit from being part of the main SM codex. The current SM win-rate is not amazing, 100% agreed and I don't think I am on the SM hate train, but there is a lot of internal balance work between units and sub-factions that needs doing for all factions, not just for Adeptus Astartes. Eradicators still need a 20-30% nerf and CM Strat needs to be 3 CP as I am sure lots of Harlequin and Ork units and Stratagems needs another pass as well. Tacs are awful until they get 100% more wounds for 20% more pts for an example of an SM unit that is currently overpriced and I am pretty sure TFCs are overpriced as well. But the same goes for all sorts of other units like Craftworld Guardians and if enough people started running mass Iyanden Guardians the Craftworld win-rate would tank as well, but is there a Craftworld that is currently absolutely dominating? We see a few people that have been lucky and had a good win-rate with a sub-faction once or twice, but Salamanders have done it on a much larger scale so we can be pretty sure that there is something that needs to be looked at there. I have been for greater internal balance all along, for every faction and I am sure that means buffing some and nerfing some SM.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Argive wrote:


October cant come quick enough. Really hope Necrons get some obnoxious stuff we can complain about instead coz its just tiring seeing this play out over and over..

Are you sure about that?

 Argive wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Argive wrote:
There are no winners here today friend..

Actually there are , the gw Arms Dealer allways wins.

Touche....

I'd rather have all the dexes at once to See this mystical good balance the playtesters seemed so genuinly happy about until they saw the patchwork to hold the Players over until their respective dexes release...

now that's hilarious, GW balance....damn I hadnt laughed like that since the last time someone made such a ridiculous statement.

Hence the mystical.
I will believe it when i see it, but the dispointment was visible, so even if it is just meh balance (which is allready GW's upper limit regardless, because GW) , it will be better then this initial bout.

Those UM look good.
No wait its IH. And RG. And IF.
No wait its Salamanders. Or White Scars.

You can hate it all you like - but competitive players, who want to win games, will move to the best rules. If you go to a tournament thinking "sure, I know X is better, but I prefer Y" you are probably not taking it as seriously as someone who will take X, and so are likely to do worse than them. So the win rate of sub-faction marines will invariably swing as the good players move between sub factions.

Which really comes out in BA/DA and super special Space Wolves. There is a very powerful mood of "Sure, I could just play Codex Primaris+Dev Pod, but if my unique characters/units don't work then I'm just going to run them anyway and suck because otherwise why am I playing the faction". Which again, isn't a very competitive mindset (which is "if they suck, they suck, play something else), and results in lower win rates.

Which doesn't deny that DA probably were the worst marine chapter in 8th (barring a bit of early edition Azrael utilising that 4++ aura) - but as a result no one with an interest in winning played them, which unsurprisingly made them do statistically worse.

Tyel wrote:
Those UM look good.
No wait its IH. And RG. And IF.
No wait its Salamanders. Or White Scars.

You can hate it all you like - but competitive players, who want to win games, will move to the best rules. If you go to a tournament thinking "sure, I know X is better, but I prefer Y" you are probably not taking it as seriously as someone who will take X, and so are likely to do worse than them. So the win rate of sub-faction marines will invariably swing as the good players move between sub factions.

Which really comes out in BA/DA and super special Space Wolves. There is a very powerful mood of "Sure, I could just play Codex Primaris+Dev Pod, but if my unique characters/units don't work then I'm just going to run them anyway and suck because otherwise why am I playing the faction". Which again, isn't a very competitive mindset (which is "if they suck, they suck, play something else), and results in lower win rates.

Which doesn't deny that DA probably were the worst marine chapter in 8th (barring a bit of early edition Azrael utilising that 4++ aura) - but as a result no one with an interest in winning played them, which unsurprisingly made them do statistically worse.

Chapter hopping WAAC players will become more of an issue in 9th with the 100% supplement method they're employing but hopefully it'll end some of these argument since it will just be "marines" since the consensus seems to be that supplements aren't diverse enough to warrant separate consideration and that anyone who plays purely to win will hop to whichever is best. We will be able to finally refer to them under the blanket of "marines".

My heart will go out to whoever is serious about trying to play the "bad supplement" in tournaments because it will be proxy mean your army will suck forever due to how the averages will balance out. If we find dark angels supplement has a 10% win rate and a salamanders 90%, we'll be back in that glorious "marines at 50% no problems here" moment.

Karol wrote:

And balance is starting now. The new sm are the new normal and balanced. If there are weaker armies, then they should be brought up to the level. The idea that to get balance the good stuff has to be destroyed first is stupid. It as if in sports someone who isn't the top contender asked for those that are to have their legs broken just to make things fair. .

Except:

a) GW has shown no sign whatsoever they will bring others to same level. More of opposite. SOB aren't marine level and necron leaks aren't all that hot either.
b) everything going up IS problem. It creates just spiral of lethality with game determined by alpha strike. If you bring up power level to marine level then armies are too lethal and there isn't much point continuing after alpha strike has been done. Which means turn 1 roll is the most important thing in the game. All rest is useless.

Power level should be brought DOWN if you want to have some semblance of TACTICS or MANOUVER in the game. Do you want game to be game of skill or game of who rolls 50-50 roll better? Guess if your winrate sucks taking game to where it's 50-50 by being determined by single 50-50 dice roll would be nice!

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hot take, different colours do not count as different factions. Tell me when Snakebites or nephrek even exist in the tournament space.

Weird, I recall blood angels, dark angels, death watch and space wolves all being stand alone codex with unique rules. Let me know when snakebites get a codex and you have a point.

Incase the plot has gone overhead, that is the point.

Good, would you also disagree dark angels being bottom makes "marines" have a bottom tier army then? Or are you happy to stand by your stance that by having a different codex they're utterly separate (which to me is correct).

Are 90%+ of the dark angels units basically the same as Space Marines just with a different paint scheme and a couple extra glyphs?
They are?

Then no, DA are just a different sub faction of Space Marines. SM's can play any number of different chapters by just saying "I know they are green, but they are Iron Hands now" and they are already basically WYSIWYG

Excellent, marines were the worst army of 2019 and bottom 3 2020 if dark angels are simply "marines".

Again you are ignoring some key facts when regarding that information that makes you seem like you are being completely disingenuous when you use it.

In a tournament meta if one chapter has the best tactics hand down then the majority of tournament players are going to jump ship to that chapter regardless of how their marines are painted.

On the other hand my friend who is a die hard Deathwing DA player who goes to tournaments will continue to get trounced cause...all terminator army in 9th edition is a bit of a joke. I would hazard to guess that the majority of people who insist on bringing DA to tournaments fall into this category instead of the meta chasers.

Now, does that mean DA are bottom tier? Or does that mean that they do not play well to the current missions and have a hard time competing against the meta? (Read: Space Marines.) What about an optimized DA list vs a optimized SM list? What about an optimized DA list vs an optimized CSM list? Or any Xenos army? Those are relevant statistics.

It is safe the assume that the majority of the SM list are optimized meta chasing list because of the pure abundance of tournament players that are high caliber that are taking SM to tournaments. Your options for the current 9th meta in tournaments is SM or some sort of anti-SM skew list, that says a lot.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hot take, different colours do not count as different factions. Tell me when Snakebites or nephrek even exist in the tournament space.

Weird, I recall blood angels, dark angels, death watch and space wolves all being stand alone codex with unique rules. Let me know when snakebites get a codex and you have a point.

Incase the plot has gone overhead, that is the point.

Good, would you also disagree dark angels being bottom makes "marines" have a bottom tier army then? Or are you happy to stand by your stance that by having a different codex they're utterly separate (which to me is correct).

Are 90%+ of the dark angels units basically the same as Space Marines just with a different paint scheme and a couple extra glyphs?
They are?

Then no, DA are just a different sub faction of Space Marines. SM's can play any number of different chapters by just saying "I know they are green, but they are Iron Hands now" and they are already basically WYSIWYG

Excellent, marines were the worst army of 2019 and bottom 3 2020 if dark angels are simply "marines".

Again you are ignoring some key facts when regarding that information that makes you seem like you are being completely disingenuous when you use it.

In a tournament meta if one chapter has the best tactics hand down then the majority of tournament players are going to jump ship to that chapter regardless of how their marines are painted.

On the other hand my friend who is a die hard Deathwing DA player who goes to tournaments will continue to get trounced cause...all terminator army in 9th edition is a bit of a joke. I would hazard to guess that the majority of people who insist on bringing DA to tournaments fall into this category instead of the meta chasers.

Now, does that mean DA are bottom tier? Or does that mean that they do not play well to the current missions and have a hard time competing against the meta? (Read: Space Marines.) What about an optimized DA list vs a optimized SM list? What about an optimized DA list vs an optimized CSM list? Or any Xenos army? Those are relevant statistics.

It is safe the assume that the majority of the SM list are optimized meta chasing list because of the pure abundance of tournament players that are high caliber that are taking SM to tournaments. Your options for the current 9th meta in tournaments is SM or some sort of anti-SM skew list, that says a lot.

You raise the exact problem, people throw shade on "marines" but dark angels in this example are a complete unknown since as you say, they're not used by the top players and their only results are fluffier fans. So we have no idea as to their balance other than "worse than the others".

Tyel wrote:
T
You can hate it all you like - but competitive players, who want to win games, will move to the best rules. If you go to a tournament thinking "sure, I know X is better, but I prefer Y" you are probably not taking it as seriously as someone who will take X, and so are likely to do worse than them. So the win rate of sub-faction marines will invariably swing as the good players move between sub factions.
.

There is an interview that I like to link with Nick N he explicitly states what you say:

https://spikeybits.com/2018/02/the-road-to-becoming-itc-champ.html

Lists matter and in the competitive scene they will determine the outcome of tournies. When you have people who devote, literally, their lives to the game any advantage is important. Plus we all know that list imbalances are not minor, it creeps down to all levels of gaming.