Switch Theme:

No more rerolls for non-CORE units  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Anything that allows a unit of your choice to move, shoot or fight twice going away would probably be a good thing for the entire game.

If a unit is supposed to do something twice, it should be a bespoke rule like on khorne berzerkers or flash gits which is limited to that one unit.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


It never made sense to me that some guy standing in the dirt outside the tank would be waving his sword around so the gunner shoots better. Or more comically, making the aircraft that flies over his head more accurate because he pointed sternly at a bad guy.


More like giving the pilot coordinates etc.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Breton wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


It never made sense to me that some guy standing in the dirt outside the tank would be waving his sword around so the gunner shoots better. Or more comically, making the aircraft that flies over his head more accurate because he pointed sternly at a bad guy.


More like giving the pilot coordinates etc.


That sounds like something a dedicated spotter should to, like infiltrators, incursors or eliminators.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Jidmah wrote:
Anything that allows a unit of your choice to move, shoot or fight twice going away would probably be a good thing for the entire game.

If a unit is supposed to do something twice, it should be a bespoke rule like on khorne berzerkers or flash gits which is limited to that one unit.


End of phase fight twice isn't so bad. It seems like Magnus Warp Time could still be in with lots of spells being CHARACTER & CORE.

Shoot twice can take a good slap for all I care though. I don't like running Slaanesh anyway (not that it hurt me to do so). Seeing Obliterators take on other marks can only be good.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:

That sounds like something a dedicated spotter should to, like infiltrators, incursors or eliminators.


cackles in Pathfinder
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Anything that allows a unit of your choice to move, shoot or fight twice going away would probably be a good thing for the entire game.

If a unit is supposed to do something twice, it should be a bespoke rule like on khorne berzerkers or flash gits which is limited to that one unit.


End of phase fight twice isn't so bad. It seems like Magnus Warp Time could still be in with lots of spells being CHARACTER & CORE.

Shoot twice can take a good slap for all I care though. I don't like running Slaanesh anyway (not that it hurt me to do so). Seeing Obliterators take on other marks can only be good.


True, but I feel like there is a gulf between a unit of MANz fighting twice and a unit of kommandoz fighting twice. Just like there is a huge difference between a unit of rubrics or scarabs moving twice and Mortarion moving twice.

GW has to balance all their units around these stratagems, abilities and powers, which is then in turn forces you to use them, limiting your options of what you actually can do during the game. I'm fairly sure GW hit lootas with the nerfhammer because of all the bad moons shooting them twice. Now they are a dead codex entry unless you are running bad moons for fluff purposes.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Hmm yea so much stuff we do today that could go away fast. So many points to change.

MANZ will probably maybe be CORE...maybe? Lootas though...yea. Every damn tease generates 1,000 more questions than it answers.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
It never made sense to me that some guy standing in the dirt outside the tank would be waving his sword around so the gunner shoots better. Or more comically, making the aircraft that flies over his head more accurate because he pointed sternly at a bad guy.
bUt It'S aN aBsTrAcTiOn!

What? Everyone else gets to use that cop-out argument when I point out how the LOS rules don't make any sense, so why shouldn't I?

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
It never made sense to me that some guy standing in the dirt outside the tank would be waving his sword around so the gunner shoots better. Or more comically, making the aircraft that flies over his head more accurate because he pointed sternly at a bad guy.
bUt It'S aN aBsTrAcTiOn!

What? Everyone else gets to use that cop-out argument when I point out how the LOS rules don't make any sense, so why shouldn't I?

You forgot to include the wounding chart and IGOUGO

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority





Breton wrote:
More like giving the pilot coordinates etc.


But he has to be -right under it-, apparently. Pilots are trained to find the guy on the ground and shoot at what he points toward.

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Another passing thought...this is a damn good buff to -1 to hit.

   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Hmm yea so much stuff we do today that could go away fast. So many points to change.

MANZ will probably maybe be CORE...maybe? Lootas though...yea. Every damn tease generates 1,000 more questions than it answers.


They've already sort of fixed it for sisters of battle and could do the same for other codexes. Most of the stratagems that have broad impact on how units perform are limited to either specific models or a specific conviction. +1 to wound is limited to bloody rose, auto 6 shots for flamers is limited to ebon chalice, fight twice is limited to pengines morties and repentia, double range +1 damage is limited to mulimelta retributors, full rerolls to hit and wound are limited to Celestians, etc.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Another passing thought...this is a damn good buff to -1 to hit.

Not exactly. Units that need the reroll auras that are losing them simply will not be played. It's not like they were necessary anyways. An army filled with troops and elite troops is already the best space marine build. Likely all with be core if HI and Terms are core. It's really just a nerf to things that didn't need to be nerfed like...redemptors dreads/repulsors/predators...

It's also bad business sense. Guess what I am not buying if it's not core. Gladiator tanks/or Speeders. Unless ofc non core units get like a 15-20% discount in points. Even then I am not sure you could ever balance units from getting really powerful buffs vs ones that do can't. Unless certain unit types were needed to win - the units that are excluded from getting these buffs already have a host of other downsides - like...no melee ability - can't go into buildings - can't obtain cover....There is literally no reason to take tanks anymore if they are not core (they at least used to be efficient aura users.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 16:43:00


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Another passing thought...this is a damn good buff to -1 to hit.

Not exactly. Units that need the reroll auras that are losing them simply will not be played. It's not like they were necessary anyways. An army filled with troops and elite troops is already the best space marine build. Likely all with be core if HI and Terms are core. It's really just a nerf to things that didn't need to be nerfed like...redemptors dreads/repulsors/predators...

It's also bad business sense. Guess what I am not buying if it's not core. Gladiator tanks/or Speeders. Unless ofc non core units get like a 15-20% discount in points. Even then I am not sure you could ever balance units from getting really powerful buffs vs ones that do can't. Unless certain unit types were needed to win - the units that are excluded from getting these buffs already have a host of other downsides - like...no melee ability - can't go into buildings - can't obtain cover....There is literally no reason to take tanks anymore if they are not core (they at least used to be efficient aura users.)


Plus with no stacking means you can just freely move whatever would've had a -1 to hit originally from Heavy/Assault weapons and be less in need OF rerolls, which already means positioning matters less.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Falls Church, VA

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
It never made sense to me that some guy standing in the dirt outside the tank would be waving his sword around so the gunner shoots better. Or more comically, making the aircraft that flies over his head more accurate because he pointed sternly at a bad guy.
bUt It'S aN aBsTrAcTiOn!

What? Everyone else gets to use that cop-out argument when I point out how the LOS rules don't make any sense, so why shouldn't I?


I wish I was lucky enough to get that response instead of

bUt tHERe aRe MoNSTerS and WIZarDS! FOURTEEKAY isN'T REaLIStic! ThE RoOLZ cAn maKE as LitTLE SENsE aS tHeY WaNT!
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Anything that allows a unit of your choice to move, shoot or fight twice going away would probably be a good thing for the entire game.

If a unit is supposed to do something twice, it should be a bespoke rule like on khorne berzerkers or flash gits which is limited to that one unit.


End of phase fight twice isn't so bad. It seems like Magnus Warp Time could still be in with lots of spells being CHARACTER & CORE.

Shoot twice can take a good slap for all I care though. I don't like running Slaanesh anyway (not that it hurt me to do so). Seeing Obliterators take on other marks can only be good.

Fight/shoot twice strategems, psychic powers, etc that aren't on a unit's datasheet are a big balance problem because you're literally doubling something's offensive output without paying for it, or the unit is priced as if you're always using the strategem meaning it's overpriced if you don't. Such effects are just pure boosts to killing power and should be abilities represented on a unit's datasheet so they can be priced accordingly.

Move twice is a bit different as it can at least be used more strategically, getting something where you want it faster than your opponent expected can really mess with their gameplan. They are also limited by all the rules for movement, eg terrain and other models. They're just not the "no brainers" that fight/shoot twice abilities are.

Plus I just always loved the idea of a Sorcerer tearing a hole in reality to fling a 300 ton ceramite leviathan into the enemy's lines, with warp energy and witch fire playing across its hull. *sigh* But it's possible such things must go for the benefit of the game as a whole.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Anything that allows a unit of your choice to move, shoot or fight twice going away would probably be a good thing for the entire game.

If a unit is supposed to do something twice, it should be a bespoke rule like on khorne berzerkers or flash gits which is limited to that one unit.


End of phase fight twice isn't so bad. It seems like Magnus Warp Time could still be in with lots of spells being CHARACTER & CORE.

Shoot twice can take a good slap for all I care though. I don't like running Slaanesh anyway (not that it hurt me to do so). Seeing Obliterators take on other marks can only be good.

Fight/shoot twice strategems, psychic powers, etc that aren't on a unit's datasheet are a big balance problem because you're literally doubling something's offensive output without paying for it, or the unit is priced as if you're always using the strategem meaning it's overpriced if you don't. Such effects are just pure boosts to killing power and should be abilities represented on a unit's datasheet so they can be priced accordingly.

Move twice is a bit different as it can at least be used more strategically, getting something where you want it faster than your opponent expected can really mess with their gameplan. They are also limited by all the rules for movement, eg terrain and other models. They're just not the "no brainers" that fight/shoot twice abilities are.

Plus I just always loved the idea of a Sorcerer tearing a hole in reality to fling a 300 ton ceramite leviathan into the enemy's lines, with warp energy and witch fire playing across its hull. *sigh* But it's possible such things must go for the benefit of the game as a whole.
Teleport abilities are great but not nearly as problematic as move twice abilities. Move twice abilities make things that should be difficult - like assaulting turn one or flying over a battle line to attack squishies...they make them automatic.

It's like trying to fight jets with prop planes...nope...

Teleport abilties that let you deep strike are still really good - they come with the special rules of must be 9" away from units so it's still a long shot to charge - plus intercept type abilties. Moves twice should simply not exist - especially with how it scales with higher move speed. An ability that say added 6" to your movement would be a lot more reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Another passing thought...this is a damn good buff to -1 to hit.

Not exactly. Units that need the reroll auras that are losing them simply will not be played. It's not like they were necessary anyways. An army filled with troops and elite troops is already the best space marine build. Likely all with be core if HI and Terms are core. It's really just a nerf to things that didn't need to be nerfed like...redemptors dreads/repulsors/predators...

It's also bad business sense. Guess what I am not buying if it's not core. Gladiator tanks/or Speeders. Unless ofc non core units get like a 15-20% discount in points. Even then I am not sure you could ever balance units from getting really powerful buffs vs ones that do can't. Unless certain unit types were needed to win - the units that are excluded from getting these buffs already have a host of other downsides - like...no melee ability - can't go into buildings - can't obtain cover....There is literally no reason to take tanks anymore if they are not core (they at least used to be efficient aura users.)


Plus with no stacking means you can just freely move whatever would've had a -1 to hit originally from Heavy/Assault weapons and be less in need OF rerolls, which already means positioning matters less.
It's true with less units having a reroll all hits aura -1 to hit would be more effective. Sadly - if the aura remains the same and there are units that can abuse it - people will just take ONLY those units. It is not a fix to the issue of auras - it just again limits your army selection. I would have supported a smart fix like...limit the # of units that could benefit from the aura at once / just make all auras into single target abilties. Would have been fine with that. This "fix" is so clearly the wrong way to fix the issue.

I've seen the arguement for design space for units that buff non core units...I wonder...will one of them have a really powerful aura that people can abuse? Like...seriously? Are we back to step one? It would just make the army stronger at that point....you can only take 1 chapter master. If I can take a chapter master buffing core units over here and a techmarine buffing tanks over here....I mean heck...I can already do that.

Whats funny is most people in this thread actually know it's a bad change. They just see it as a space marine nerf and youre wrong...It is not even going to affect marines. It is just going to hurt casual gamers who want to play with their non net list with them being unable to buff units netlisters wont even be able to consider.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 17:29:21


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Anything that allows a unit of your choice to move, shoot or fight twice going away would probably be a good thing for the entire game.

If a unit is supposed to do something twice, it should be a bespoke rule like on khorne berzerkers or flash gits which is limited to that one unit.


End of phase fight twice isn't so bad. It seems like Magnus Warp Time could still be in with lots of spells being CHARACTER & CORE.

Shoot twice can take a good slap for all I care though. I don't like running Slaanesh anyway (not that it hurt me to do so). Seeing Obliterators take on other marks can only be good.

Fight/shoot twice strategems, psychic powers, etc that aren't on a unit's datasheet are a big balance problem because you're literally doubling something's offensive output without paying for it, or the unit is priced as if you're always using the strategem meaning it's overpriced if you don't. Such effects are just pure boosts to killing power and should be abilities represented on a unit's datasheet so they can be priced accordingly.

Move twice is a bit different as it can at least be used more strategically, getting something where you want it faster than your opponent expected can really mess with their gameplan. They are also limited by all the rules for movement, eg terrain and other models. They're just not the "no brainers" that fight/shoot twice abilities are.

Plus I just always loved the idea of a Sorcerer tearing a hole in reality to fling a 300 ton ceramite leviathan into the enemy's lines, with warp energy and witch fire playing across its hull. *sigh* But it's possible such things must go for the benefit of the game as a whole.

Teleport abilities are great but not nearly as problematic as move twice abilities. Move twice abilities make things that should be difficult - like assaulting turn one or flying over a battle line to attack squishies...they make them automatic.

It's like trying to fight jets with prop planes...nope...

Teleport abilties that let you deep strike are still really good - they come with the special rules of must be 9" away from units so it's still a long shot to charge - plus intercept type abilties. Moves twice should simply not exist - especially with how it scales with higher move speed. An ability that say added 6" to your movement would be a lot more reasonable.

As I said, such abilities may need to go away for the benefit of the game. The same can be said for anything that grants scout/infiltrator type abilities to units that weren't designed or priced with such abilities in mind. We've already seen what that can do with Centurions. The problem is giving additional rules to units that weren't designed/priced for them. Hopefully this will curtail that somewhat.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
It never made sense to me that some guy standing in the dirt outside the tank would be waving his sword around so the gunner shoots better. Or more comically, making the aircraft that flies over his head more accurate because he pointed sternly at a bad guy.
bUt It'S aN aBsTrAcTiOn!

What? Everyone else gets to use that cop-out argument when I point out how the LOS rules don't make any sense, so why shouldn't I?


I wish I was lucky enough to get that response instead of

bUt tHERe aRe MoNSTerS and WIZarDS! FOURTEEKAY isN'T REaLIStic! ThE RoOLZ cAn maKE as LitTLE SENsE aS tHeY WaNT!


Yeah just stick with 'WhY wOULdn'T FoUrteeKay FolLoW dA saMe RoOLZ aS WorLd WaR TwO?!?? ConText oNlY hAs to MaKe SenS3 when I SAYZ SO!'

Still just salty because your ideas are stupid.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in ca
Aspirant Tech-Adept






 Xenomancers wrote:
Teleport abilities are great but not nearly as problematic as move twice abilities. Move twice abilities make things that should be difficult - like assaulting turn one or flying over a battle line to attack squishies...they make them automatic.

It's like trying to fight jets with prop planes...nope...

Teleport abilties that let you deep strike are still really good - they come with the special rules of must be 9" away from units so it's still a long shot to charge - plus intercept type abilties. Moves twice should simply not exist - especially with how it scales with higher move speed. An ability that say added 6" to your movement would be a lot more reasonable.


Yeah, sure Move twice abilities have more OP potential than teleport abilities.

He wasn't saying the contrary. He was pointing out that out of all the common "Act twice" abiltities, the ones that let you move twice are less straightforward than the others.
Fight twice barely requires thinking, shoot twice a bit more since you have to decide what your optimal target is. Move twice at least can be used offensively or defensively and actually requires decision making, especially in the later turns of the game.

Still, i think teleport abilities are more useful in general than move twice abilities. Warptime is still one of the better powers CSM have but after playing with Da'Jump with my thousand sons, they both have unique roles. Warptime goes on the fast models, Da'jump goes on the slow ones.

Basically, i agree with you. Act twice abilities that aren't on the unit datasheet have to go away. Ynnari was the prime example of why its a balancing nightmare.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 17:44:39


Admech 5000
Drukhari 4000
2500
500
Imperial knights 1200

 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Aye. Act twice abilities on a data sheet are baked into the cost and therefor okay IMO.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Which is once again a problem with a lot of Strats: they're straight offensive or defensive buffs without any thought behind them.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which is once again a problem with a lot of Strats: they're straight offensive or defensive buffs without any thought behind them.


The most interesting stratagems to me are things like Vox Scream or Supreme Creation. Things that are fluffy and show how the army is supposed to play but aren't basic damage dealing bonuses.

The most annoying type of strats are things like Infernal fusilade or Flames of mutation : straight up damage buffs that target a specific unit. If these were a once-per game ability baked in the datasheet,which you paid points for, it would be a lot better. As it stands, its nothing more than a cheap patch for underperforming units. I hate that i basically HAVE to use it everytime i play these units.

Admech 5000
Drukhari 4000
2500
500
Imperial knights 1200

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Another passing thought...this is a damn good buff to -1 to hit.

Not exactly. Units that need the reroll auras that are losing them simply will not be played. It's not like they were necessary anyways. An army filled with troops and elite troops is already the best space marine build. Likely all with be core if HI and Terms are core. It's really just a nerf to things that didn't need to be nerfed like...redemptors dreads/repulsors/predators...

It's also bad business sense. Guess what I am not buying if it's not core. Gladiator tanks/or Speeders. Unless ofc non core units get like a 15-20% discount in points. Even then I am not sure you could ever balance units from getting really powerful buffs vs ones that do can't. Unless certain unit types were needed to win - the units that are excluded from getting these buffs already have a host of other downsides - like...no melee ability - can't go into buildings - can't obtain cover....There is literally no reason to take tanks anymore if they are not core (they at least used to be efficient aura users.)



It is a lot harder to play missions and keep all the CORE buffed.

IF Devs are core - 5 LC Devs (@ 18 points) and half a Captain (CM) will be 185, 10 wounds, and 51 points per hit when not moving and 59 when moving. Predator is currently 170 or 63 points per hit.

Predator is marginally worse when you consider it is more flexible, doesn't require the captain to also be buffing other units, and that a CM might cost points now.



   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Warptime isn't free, you pay for the psyker (and you pay a lot), and it isn't automatic either. Comparing it to double shoot or double fight stratagems is pretty silly.

More fundamentally, I don't want chaos to just be a slightly different, likely inferior kind of marines. All the jank in the chaos faction is what makes it interesting and rewarding and different to play. I wouldn't want to see the janky identity of the superfaction go away in favor of generic buffs that just make them Spikey Space Marines.

That doesn't mean all the particular choices GW has made are smart, mind you. But the last thing I want to see is stuff like warptime removed in "return" for doctrines or some junk like that.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Plus with no stacking means you can just freely move whatever would've had a -1 to hit originally from Heavy/Assault weapons and be less in need OF rerolls, which already means positioning matters less.


And yet it still matters, because lots of things won't have a -1 to hit so forcing it upon yourself weakens your capabilities and forces you to keep a captain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Warptime isn't free, you pay for the psyker (and you pay a lot), and it isn't automatic either. Comparing it to double shoot or double fight stratagems is pretty silly.

More fundamentally, I don't want chaos to just be a slightly different, likely inferior kind of marines. All the jank in the chaos faction is what makes it interesting and rewarding and different to play. I wouldn't want to see the janky identity of the superfaction go away in favor of generic buffs that just make them Spikey Space Marines.

That doesn't mean all the particular choices GW has made are smart, mind you. But the last thing I want to see is stuff like warptime removed in "return" for doctrines or some junk like that.


There's probably no chance Warp Time goes away. It will just become CHARACTER and CORE only. It could potentially exclude Magnus. So no more Defiler / Magnus surge seems likely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 18:25:54


   
Made in ca
Aspirant Tech-Adept






yukishiro1 wrote:
Warptime isn't free, you pay for the psyker (and you pay a lot), and it isn't automatic either. Comparing it to double shoot or double fight stratagems is pretty silly.

More fundamentally, I don't want chaos to just be a slightly different, likely inferior kind of marines. All the jank in the chaos faction is what makes it interesting and rewarding and different to play. I wouldn't want to see the janky identity of the superfaction go away in favor of generic buffs that just make them Spikey Space Marines.

That doesn't mean all the particular choices GW has made are smart, mind you. But the last thing I want to see is stuff like warptime removed in "return" for doctrines or some junk like that.


Sure, you pay for warptime and its not a guarantee that you'll pull it off but its still the most powerful spell CSM have access to.

In my eyes, CSMs fit in two category :

-Renegades
These guys are either fresh converts, marines that decided to go against the imperium but. These are the "spiky loyalists" since they don't overuse chaos so they have some similarities to the loyalists.

-Chaos-ed marines
These are the ones that fully embrace chaos (DG, EC,TS,WE) and make extensive use of demon stuff.

the problem is that these two are very different at their core. Now lets say GW mostly sees CSM as the second option (so theres a bigger gap between loyalists and them).
The core of these would be the inter-faction buffs (Demonic loci mainly). In my eyes, these marines should lose the Khorne "fight twice" and slaanesh "shoot twice" stratagem. By losing these, you can make Chaos marks something more than just a stratagem unlocker.

Make marks give you stats (+1 T for nurgle, +2M for slaanesh, +1S for khorne, +1 save? for Tzeentch) on top of the keyword and change loci to affect any <Mark of Chaos> unit instead of specifically demons. Having a khorne berzerker besides a herald of khorne should buff their strength for example.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

There's probably no chance Warp Time goes away. It will just become CHARACTER and CORE only. It could potentially exclude Magnus. So no more Defiler / Magnus surge seems likely.


agreed its not going away, but isnt the Disco lord the biggest offender for warptime usage? Or mortarion? Magnus seems pretty far down the list of "optimal warptime targets"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 18:51:46


Admech 5000
Drukhari 4000
2500
500
Imperial knights 1200

 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Warptime isn't free, you pay for the psyker (and you pay a lot), and it isn't automatic either. Comparing it to double shoot or double fight stratagems is pretty silly.

More fundamentally, I don't want chaos to just be a slightly different, likely inferior kind of marines. All the jank in the chaos faction is what makes it interesting and rewarding and different to play. I wouldn't want to see the janky identity of the superfaction go away in favor of generic buffs that just make them Spikey Space Marines.

That doesn't mean all the particular choices GW has made are smart, mind you. But the last thing I want to see is stuff like warptime removed in "return" for doctrines or some junk like that.


Sure, you pay for warptime and its not a guarantee that you'll pull it off but its still the most powerful spell CSM have access to.

In my eyes, CSMs fit in two category :

-Renegades
These guys are either fresh converts, marines that decided to go against the imperium but. These are the "spiky loyalists" since they don't overuse chaos so they have some similarities to the loyalists.

-Chaos-ed marines
These are the ones that fully embrace chaos (DG, EC,TS,WE) and make extensive use of demon stuff.

the problem is that these two are very different at their core. Now lets say GW mostly sees CSM as the second option (so theres a bigger gap between loyalists and them).
The core of these would be the inter-faction buffs (Demonic loci mainly). In my eyes, these marines should lose the Khorne "fight twice" and slaanesh "shoot twice" stratagem. By losing these, you can make Chaos marks something more than just a stratagem unlocker.

Make marks give you stats (+1 T for nurgle, +2M for slaanesh, +1S for khorne, +1 save? for Tzeentch) on top of the keyword and change loci to affect any <Mark of Chaos> unit instead of specifically demons. Having a khorne berzerker besides a herald of khorne should buff their strength for example.

Um, aren't you forgetting some legions? Like Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Night Lords? I don't think they fit into either of those categories.

And I'd like for Yukishiro to define "janky". If it means csm remaining team WOMBO COMBO, then no thanks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/19 02:29:50


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't think that phrase has much meaning, honestly. It seems to be just defined as whatever people don't like.

I'm not a big fan of stacking buffs on a single death star unit, if that's what you mean. It wouldn't really bother me to see double shoot and double fight go away, though if they do, obviously all the other double fights (especially the ones with fewer conditions that normal marines get) should go away too.

Warptime is the ultimate jank, but it also includes stuff like most of the alpha legion stratagem list, vox scream, the anti-fall back strat night lords get, daemon summoning, etc etc. Stuff that allows you to punch above your weight through clever use.

   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Jidmah wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


It never made sense to me that some guy standing in the dirt outside the tank would be waving his sword around so the gunner shoots better. Or more comically, making the aircraft that flies over his head more accurate because he pointed sternly at a bad guy.


More like giving the pilot coordinates etc.


That sounds like something a dedicated spotter should to, like infiltrators, incursors or eliminators.


Or the radioman who follows the company commander around? Regardless its a more accurate fluff-splaination for why a ground commander would make aircraft or tanks more accurate than "waving a sword" or "pointing sternly"?

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: