Switch Theme:

(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I think one of the big weaknesses of our book is honestly just that the secondaries aren't particularly enticing and are all kind of "win more".

Xeno killing is okay but requires a LOT of kills to be worth it. It's useful, but highly situational.

Cripple Stronghold is just insane. It requires your opponent somehow being unable to contest an objective of their choosing in their deployment zone for multiple turns in a 5 turn game. I cannoth fathom getting this.

Purge's big issue is your opponent picks 2 of the 3 roles and can easily deny it from you.

Long Vigil's biggest weakness is the 5 turn game. You've got 4 chances to score it and it really doesn't require much from your opponent to stop you.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cripple Stronghold is the worst secondary in the game, CMV
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




I like Xeno killing in it's matchups, but Long Vigil seems to be the clear beat of the pack and not a rough one for scoring to boot. It's not something to pick on every map, but something like the Scouring would be a good time to pick it I think.

Conversely, I think the only good Space Marine one is Oath, but that's not saying a ton. If you kill multiple vehicles/monsters/characters in one turn it's still just 1 point. You're basically saying 'hey opponent, I'm gonna camp something dead center'. Sometimes you don't mind doing that, but other times you don't want to lock yourself in like that
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Audustum wrote:

Conversely, I think the only good Space Marine one is Oath, but that's not saying a ton. If you kill multiple vehicles/monsters/characters in one turn it's still just 1 point. You're basically saying 'hey opponent, I'm gonna camp something dead center'. Sometimes you don't mind doing that, but other times you don't want to lock yourself in like that


Oaths is very strong, but mostly because it's reliable. With a good plan and a well built list you can readily grab 10+ VP against most comers with a single small unit. No small thing to have in your back pocket against certain opponents.

I've actually been looking at it as a combination with While We Stand, and just go hard in on a pair of Proteus teams geared for durability. For 4 objective maps you can task one holding a flank objective, the other holding the middle, and then just daring an opponent (who hopefully isnt playing Slaaneshi demons) to come and try and shift you. Built and supported correctly, Deathwatch units can approach Custodian levels of durability. I really do think there's play there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/17 12:55:45


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Jackal444 wrote:
Cripple Stronghold is the worst secondary in the game, CMV


The only play I see for Cripple Stronghold is if you bring lots of artillery and Phobos. You use artillery to clear the objective and force the enemy to keep pushing more and more units to the Stronghold. If they don’t, you use Guerilla Warfare to port any cheapo Phobos unit straight to it and perform the action. Then they absolutely MUST get back to the objective or else you get 6vp.

This means they either abandon another objective, or they let you secure the VP. You can also use Tremor Shells to tag whichever unit you suspect will be used to contest the Stronghold immediately after deploying the Guerilla Phobos team. The thing that makes it even remotely viable, in my mind, is that it’s 6vp, so you can pull this in the 4th and 5th rounds to get to 12/15 when the board is much clearer of chaff that could contest the action.

None of this is particularly easy to do, so I doubt it’ll be used much, if ever. There is a psychological factor to it that is kind of interesting, though.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





I put my deathwatch project on the backburner for a couple of months, noticed in goonhammer they were saying people haven't really tapped the power from the codex yet.
What are people finding success with?
The beacon seems great but I'm not sure what the best play with it is? Pulling eradicators into melta range first turn? Or are people holding off and bringing through a nasty melee threat.
Feel like if we want to get charges off from a proteus melee they're better off being delivered in a corvus.
I'm also unsure about HQ choices. Seems like biker chaplain (with beacon), watchmaster and librarian are the go to choices. Or should I swap the watchmaster for a captain with the shield relic?
Anything else that's an auto-include?

   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




So query based on a recent match where I fought some good old fashioned MW spam from Chaos. What are our options here? The Space Marine Codex is pretty bare. I brought two Librarians but even 3 denies wasn't enough to keep up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/18 04:41:57


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Audustum wrote:
So query based on a recent match where I fought some good old fashioned MW spam from Chaos. What are our options here? The Space Marine Codex is pretty bare. I brought two Librarians but even 3 denies wasn't enough to keep up.


FNPs. We've got access to a toooooon of ways to shrug wounds, especially of the MW variety.

Chaplain - 5+++ bubble litany. Importantly, works against *any* mortal wound, not just psykers. Good in a pinch against things like Scrapjets, bombers, or other units that can do direct mortal wounds. Also importantly, thanks to Commanding Oratory, one you dont need to have picked, you can simply elect to start blasting it if it is needed.
Apothecary - 6+++ with bonus heals and revival - especially good on multiwound kill teams where if a 3-wound fella doesnt die he just pops back up to full health, and then his buddy stands back up thanks to Combat Revival
Librarian - Targetable 5+++, plus denies.

Also, dont sleep on the Malleus Inquisitor for hyper efficient psyker support. 60 points and a CP nets you a 2/2 caster who can fish for targetable MWs with Castigate, pull back some CP with Mental Interrogation or even just screw with your opponent via Dominate. If you're already running a Librarian they're an auto take as far as I'm concerned.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/18 14:58:36


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




Sterling191 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
So query based on a recent match where I fought some good old fashioned MW spam from Chaos. What are our options here? The Space Marine Codex is pretty bare. I brought two Librarians but even 3 denies wasn't enough to keep up.


FNPs. We've got access to a toooooon of ways to shrug wounds, especially of the MW variety.

Chaplain - 5+++ bubble litany. Importantly, works against *any* mortal wound, not just psykers. Good in a pinch against things like Scrapjets, bombers, or other units that can do direct mortal wounds. Also importantly, thanks to Commanding Oratory, one you dont need to have picked, you can simply elect to start blasting it if it is needed.
Apothecary - 6+++ with bonus heals and revival - especially good on multiwound kill teams where if a 3-wound fella doesnt die he just pops back up to full health, and then his buddy stands back up thanks to Combat Revival
Librarian - Targetable 5+++, plus denies.

Also, dont sleep on the Malleus Inquisitor for hyper efficient psyker support. 60 points and a CP nets you a 2/2 caster who can fish for targetable MWs with Castigate, pull back some CP with Mental Interrogation or even just screw with your opponent via Dominate. If you're already running a Librarian they're an auto take as far as I'm concerned.


This is good advice, thank you!

I did try keeping a 5+++ one time and it stopped a fair number. The MW output of Chaos is just huge though. When I had no FNP, I took something like 22 MW in a single turn (over shooting, psychic and melee). With FNP things got cut down to like 12 (I rolled well it seems), but that's still enough to axe 4 Bladeguard/Gravis Armored models with just MW alone.

The Inquisitor is a good idea though. Mental Interrogation is usually hampered by the close range, but this kind of MW output needs proximity. Chaos player has to play into the distance (though Ahriman will almost certainly be present so there is always the denial hurdle). Thank you, again.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Just as a heads up, I believe that Commanding Oratory is any of YOUR phases. It would be difficult to use it reactively.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




bmsattler wrote:
Just as a heads up, I believe that Commanding Oratory is any of YOUR phases. It would be difficult to use it reactively.


I will have to look that up. Luckily, that Codex is actually here
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Also to consider if you're in a psyker heavy meta:

A Primaris Libby with the Reliquary of Gathalmor

Any Libby with the Soul Fortress relic.

The former needs no introduction and is a hilarious hard counter to anything involving psykers. The latter is a Deathwatch specific relic that allows the bearer to ignore modifiers to a Psychic test (like say, the Reliquary, Nid's Shadow in the Warp, SoS / Culexus shenanigans, etc), but more importantly pushes the bearer's Psychic Hood range to 24". That's effectively a +1 to Denys for that particular caster.

Combined, you can really, really screw with an opponent who wants to go hard on Warp shenanigans.

bmsattler wrote:
Just as a heads up, I believe that Commanding Oratory is any of YOUR phases. It would be difficult to use it reactively.


This is correct. While you can't stop an opponent who gets a T1 drubbing off, the Litany does last till your next command phase, meaning if you pop it in your own turn it'll protect through your opponent's next. Again, not a perfect reactive defense, but one that you can keep in your back pocket if you'd rather bake other Litanies into your Chappy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/18 17:11:54


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




Sterling191 wrote:
Also to consider if you're in a psyker heavy meta:

A Primaris Libby with the Reliquary of Gathalmor

Any Libby with the Soul Fortress relic.

The former needs no introduction and is a hilarious hard counter to anything involving psykers. The latter is a Deathwatch specific relic that allows the bearer to ignore modifiers to a Psychic test (like say, the Reliquary, Nid's Shadow in the Warp, SoS / Culexus shenanigans, etc), but more importantly pushes the bearer's Psychic Hood range to 24". That's effectively a +1 to Denys for that particular caster.

Combined, you can really, really screw with an opponent who wants to go hard on Warp shenanigans.

bmsattler wrote:
Just as a heads up, I believe that Commanding Oratory is any of YOUR phases. It would be difficult to use it reactively.


This is correct. While you can't stop an opponent who gets a T1 drubbing off, the Litany does last till your next command phase, meaning if you pop it in your own turn it'll protect through your opponent's next. Again, not a perfect reactive defense, but one that you can keep in your back pocket if you'd rather bake other Litanies into your Chappy.


So far the MW are primarily psychic but there's a fair amount in shooting + melee too. They just ooze it everywhere.

I'm trying to stay hard TAC so the Reliquary is tempting me but it's gonna be pretty useless against non-psyker matchups.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Abaddon303 wrote:
I put my deathwatch project on the backburner for a couple of months, noticed in goonhammer they were saying people haven't really tapped the power from the codex yet.
What are people finding success with?
The beacon seems great but I'm not sure what the best play with it is? Pulling eradicators into melta range first turn? Or are people holding off and bringing through a nasty melee threat.
Feel like if we want to get charges off from a proteus melee they're better off being delivered in a corvus.
I'm also unsure about HQ choices. Seems like biker chaplain (with beacon), watchmaster and librarian are the go to choices. Or should I swap the watchmaster for a captain with the shield relic?
Anything else that's an auto-include?


I think you've got the right idea on the HQs. The Watchmaster though, tends to fall to the wayside of the captain. The inability to take the Aegis really hurts him. A company champion can do the job, but you need to be careful of how much you're spending on buffing characters. It's very easy to get up to around 600 points of buffing characters and not have enough meat to get the job done. In the elite slot, the Apothecary pulls a lot of weight, particularly in DW where he can be chaining and reviving units that are usually locked to smaller sizes that are easier to wipe out. Right now I'm spending around 475 for a Captain/Lib/Chaplain/Apoth, but even there I feel like I should trim them down a bit.

There's a good selection of Warlord traits and relics to pick from, to the point where you're going to need to try different combinations and see what works. I've been leaning away from the Beacon just because we have the teleport strat for alpha striking and we have too many good options. The Aegis is probably my must take at this point and Ectoclades is pretty crazy in practice. The Auspicator is also a powerful meta pick at the moment. In terms of WLTs, several of the Chapter Command options stand out as being early picks, and the Imperium's Sword is very powerful. Our unique choices are pretty great as well. Vigilence is very useful as is Optimized Priority. Getting extra relics out with Castellan can make a very smashy captain, particularly mixed with the Salamander WLT. Paragon gives us some interesting utility.

In terms of other stuff, I think our Kill Teams all have their place. Fortis is probably the weakest of the bunch. Intercessors are plain worse than Vets and Outriders probably aren't as good as Vet Bikes and Vanguards. Still, the Outriders are a bunch of wounds that can use the Intercessors to train back to the support characters very effectively. I think a Spectrus KT is a must take. Eliminators probably get enough out of it to be worth taking, but the optimized version is probably just to fill it out with Incursors for a couple of cheap midfield objective grabbers after combat squadding. The Gravis stuff will be interesting. Powerful team, but it's a little uncertain how good the expensive core unit is vs just buying more Eradicators/Inceptors. It doesn't help that Eradicators have largely hated out their targets from the meta. Proteus is probably our best pick as well as the one no none has totally figured out. The options are endless, so figuring out the best combo is still largely unexplored.

Special mention to Redemptor Dreadnoughts. Giving them an invul and rerolls makes them very happy. I need to math them vs another KT, but they seem like they're well worth it for what they do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/19 14:16:44


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Thanks Lunarsol good info and lots to think about. I'm guessing when you say eliminators you mean eradicators and I 100% agree, when I first started to digest the codex taking 5 in a kill team just seemed so strong but actually, I can't remember the last time I came up against a vehicle, hardly anybody is running them anymore out of fear of eradicators.
Redemptors are definitely on my list due to the 5++ so good to hear you reconfirm that. It's a shame about the watchmaster because he seems like a cool and unique character to run in a DW army but it's so inefficient to take him and a champion for the relic shield compared to just taking a captain.
Interesting to hear your take on some of the primaris stuff. I think tbh I will be running some Fortis despite not being so efficient just because I'm mainly starting the DW army because I want to build some primaris!

   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Sacratomato

I can second the awesome that is Redemptors and Watchmaster + Champ + Librarian.

My x2 Redemptors with that in-between is a mean sandwhich to shove down an opponents throat.

I don't own Eradicators, but I have tried 5 Eliminators......they had a bad shooting day for their cost, but they did work.

For me, I love these top three infantry units for DW.........Vanguard Vets with jump packs, Heavy intercessors and standard Vets.

70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them. 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




The one time I took sniper Eliminators my opponent had Deathshroud negating.

I think 5 Las-Fusil Eliminators with a Librarian to Soul Sight + Shrouding could do some work.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Audustum wrote:
The one time I took sniper Eliminators my opponent had Deathshroud negating.

I think 5 Las-Fusil Eliminators with a Librarian to Soul Sight + Shrouding could do some work.


I wouldnt worry too much about Death Guard throwing wrenches in the works. Eliminators are more than just head popping in a Spectrus team (cover in the open and a de-facto 1+ while in real cover is worth its weight in gold against multiple armies for instance). The problem with Fusil Eliminators is that they dont really do anything that other units can't do better and/or more efficiently.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/18 23:02:02


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Hmm, I guess the watchmaster is giving the full rerolls, something a captain can't do. Coming from CSM and more recently Death Guard it's amazing how many options there are it's quite overwhelming!
What secondaries are people taking? The more I play around with lists, by the time you trick out some solid kill teams most are around the 300pt mark which makes me think WWSWF is a no brainer. Your opponent has to wade through so many wounds and storm shields etc to stop you scoring.
An indomitor kill team will take a hell of a lot to shift and one combat squad would be very strong to sit on the middle of the board for oath of moment too.
I feel like obsec board control is something we can lean into and monster units to make DW very hard to shift. I guess combat squadding gives the benefits of big squads without the downsides of blast etc

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Abaddon303 wrote:
I guess combat squadding gives the benefits of big squads without the downsides of blast etc


Combat squadding allows for non-traditional formations for mixed units. Remember, you get to pick which models go into which squad, and they dont have to be evenly distributed. This can result in some very outside the box formations with unique properties.

Want T5 Terminators? You can do it.

Want Bikes rocking the same defensive statline as Custodian guard that are infantry and can go through terrain while also gaining cover? You can do it.

Want a brick of a unit that can innately redeploy, reduces the first failed save to zero damage, forward deploy and prevent *anything* coming in from reserves within 12"? You can do it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/18 23:07:53


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Abaddon303 wrote:
Thanks Lunarsol good info and lots to think about. I'm guessing when you say eliminators you mean eradicators and I 100% agree, when I first started to digest the codex taking 5 in a kill team just seemed so strong but actually, I can't remember the last time I came up against a vehicle, hardly anybody is running them anymore out of fear of eradicators.
Redemptors are definitely on my list due to the 5++ so good to hear you reconfirm that. It's a shame about the watchmaster because he seems like a cool and unique character to run in a DW army but it's so inefficient to take him and a champion for the relic shield compared to just taking a captain.
Interesting to hear your take on some of the primaris stuff. I think tbh I will be running some Fortis despite not being so efficient just because I'm mainly starting the DW army because I want to build some primaris!


Yeah, sorry, I was talking Eliminators for the Spectrus and forgot to switch when I started talking to Indomitus. Updated the post for clarity.

I don't think the Watch Master is bad at all, I just really want the Aegis. While I think the Champion is a decent deal 185 for the two is just really expensive. The Librarian/Chaplain/Apothecary are so tempting.

Ultimately, I've got this short list at the moment:

130 Watch Master
100-130 Captain (+Jump Pack/Storm Shield/Melee Weapon?)
90-125 Librarian (Phobos/Chief Upgrade?)
100-140 Chaplain (Bike/Master Upgrade?)
90-95 Apothecary (Selfless? Of course Selfless, always selfless)
55-70 Champion (Aegis/Charge Reroll Upgrade?)

I think every model on this list is worth consideration, you just can't take them all. At most, I'd say 4 of them is pushing it, and even then you have to be careful how much you're taking out of your buff target budget to take these heroes. I've got about 700 points packed onto these 6 characters, so you just have to be careful. That's the dark side of a relatively well balanced set of options. You CAN take any of them, you'll just suffer if you try to take ALL of them.

I don't think the Fortis teams are bad. They can transhuman and the auto rifles put out a lot of firepower on a relatively mobile unit. The Outriders are still solid, even after the points bump and Hellblasters aren't bad, just outshone by Inceptors currently. I mostly point it out because Proteus Vets with SIA are basically Bolt Rifles with some alt fire options and free chainswords for the same price. Vet Vanguard/Bikers also mix in better ways than Fortis has. In terms of Primaris, I'd not sleep on Infiltrators. I probably won't ever run this personally, but I'd wager 2 Spectrus KTs, one with Eliminators and one with Incursors, makes for a really strong midfield objective grabbing game. A lot of SM players are having luck with their troop tax being 2 5 man Incurors teams and 1 5 man Infiltrator team. We can pull off the same thing, but with all 3 units having the 12" denial bubble for a bit cheaper. Luckily, I think all 4 are good enough to work with and much like the HQ short list, its just a matter of what you want to sink your points into.
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Sacratomato

On Combat squads....can you do 7 of one and 3 of another when you combat squad them?

I thought you had to keep it as close as possible ( 10 an squad had to be 5 and 5 or a 9 man squad could be 4 and 5)

70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Da-Rock wrote:
On Combat squads....can you do 7 of one and 3 of another when you combat squad them?

I thought you had to keep it as close as possible ( 10 an squad had to be 5 and 5 or a 9 man squad could be 4 and 5)


You cannot. It must be as close to an even split as possible.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





What is the current dominant view on whether you can combat squad a unit that is in the teleportarium?

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




The view I've seen taken most places is that if you want to teleport two separate units you should pay for both. RAW its completely up in the air as to how it is interpreted. I'd strongly suggest pre-game or pre-event discussion with your opponent or tournament organizers as to how this interaction would be run.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Huh bit annoying. There's been a DW faq already too hasn't there?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




bmsattler wrote:
RAW its completely up in the air as to how it is interpreted.


This is not correct. The RAW is very clear that a unit has to be placed into Reserves / Teleportarium / Transports before it can combat squad. The order of operations in the process is unambiguous. What this means, is that by pure RAW you *cannot* place two combat squads from a unit into different locations pregame (IE: one in a Razorback, another on the table or in the Teleportarium). Likewise, if you use the Teleportarium strat, the order of operations is abundantly clear that a unit can split afterwords, only costing 1 CP for two separate units.

Now all of this is obviously not ideal from an actual gameplay perspective (Combat Squadding and transports for instance just breaks the damn game), but it's a structural problem with 9th edition, not something specific to Deathwatch.

Abaddon303 wrote:
Huh bit annoying. There's been a DW faq already too hasn't there?


There has been, but again the issue is that the way the Combat Squads ability is worded the order of operations are incompatible with the highly regimented 9th edition "steps of playing the game" structure.

Ultimately it's a relatively easy fix, GW just need to define steps 9-11 as being "Deployment", but until they do, or until the Combat Squads rule is itself erattaed, we are where we are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/20 19:24:06


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Yeh I think I'd agree with your RAW interpretation. Thing is, if anyone were to think that's an unfair reading (effectively reserving two units for the price of one) there is two sides to it.

If you could combat squad before using the teleportarium then you could start one squad on the board and another in deepstrike giving far more flexibility.

I'm actually not sure which way I'd prefer it was ruled...

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




For casual games, I dont think you're going to have any pushback on playing the whole ball of wax how it should be treated (IE: combat squads can be flexible and show up in different statuses during deployment). For competitive environments, it's a TO conversation for sure.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





So with Indomitor Teams nearly upon us, what are people thinking of making? The 5 Eradicator build seems a little overkill at this point; I'm kind of wondering if some version of this might work better:

3 HI Hellstorm
2 HI Heavy (Executor?)
2 Eradicator Heavy Melta
1 Eradicator Melta Rifle
2 Inceptors Plasma (Assualt?)

The right answer might just be to spit out Inceptors, but I don't feel like the Heavy Intercessors are quite as valuable as a tax to give another squad objective secured.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/24 20:27:42


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Tactics
Go to: