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Made in us
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In My Lab

 JNAProductions wrote:
So what point cost, statline, and general rules do YOU think are appropriate for a mob of Boys?
Reposting this because it was missed, apparently. Directed at Xeno primarily, but if anyone else wants to answer, I'd like to hear it.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
So what point cost, statline, and general rules do YOU think are appropriate for a mob of Boys?
Reposting this because it was missed, apparently. Directed at Xeno primarily, but if anyone else wants to answer, I'd like to hear it.

My initial thought was 9 points each...but -then I started comparing them to similar units like geenstellers and flayed ones (similar damage and durability) I think the minimum for a t5 ork boy with -1 ap attacks is probably 11 (and that is agressive) Flay ones are 14 points/ geens 13.

Geens have some bonus rules 5++ but are t4 (near equal durability vs the majority of Anti infantry weapons) the same weapons - same number of attacks(does get ap-4 on 6's)...ork has a pistol...both are essentially fearless in game. The only real advantage is move speed and advance and charge. Good rules - but the ork has way to get mobility and advance and charge...+2 points seems about right for what the Geen gets. Not to mention 30 man units for orcs another big advantage.

Honestly the flayed s even worse...For all the advantages of the ork - the only thing it gets is a crappy 4+ save that is going to be brought down to a 5+ or 6+ by pretty much every weapon in the game at this point including the orks weapon itself. An 11 point ork boy is better than this POS by a mile.

At 11 - are orks really gonna wanna spam them? Probably not. You'd be better off with current 8 point boys for that. So this is what happens when you confuse a units roll...boys are a horde unit that does a lot of damage but can't take much. T4 offers them decent mitigation without breaking the bank. That has always been the selling point.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 18:59:40


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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 Xenomancers wrote:


Honestly the flayed s even worse...For all the advantages of the ork - the only thing it gets is a crappy 4+ save that is going to be brought down to a 5+ or 6+ by pretty much every weapon in the game at this point including the orks weapon itself. An 11 point ork boy is better than this POS by a mile.




Literally just a page back you tried to argue this:

Orks will have 5++ saves (KFF is not going anywhere). At that point they are more durable than marines per point. Because -2 ap weapons are abundant. Weapons that ignore toughness are not abundant.


...and made it sound like a 5+ or 5++ armor save is practically unstoppable. Now it's "a crappy 4+ save that is going to be brought down to 5+ or 6+..."

Please make up your mind which one it is. Because it can't be both awesome and the best thing ever when it's on orks, and yet the worst thing in the world when it's a 5+ on Flayed Ones.
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
An ork should be easier to kill than a space marine. By a lot. Not a little.


And they are, even with T5.

You're looking at 3.6 bolter hits to drop an Ork compared to 12 bolter hits for a Marine.

Is being over three times easier to kill not 'by a lot' to you?

 Xenomancers wrote:
That lore is awesome BTW. But it is also Cannon. Orks being fodder is Cannon.



Watch this...I you can stomach watching one of the best pieces of cinema ever created.


You're complaining about T5 Orks not being lore-accurate and fluff-correct, and then brush off an example of Orks going toe to toe with Marines by linking a fan work?

You may like it and it may be a good piece of media, but that doesn't make it canon if being 'true to the lore' is actually what you're concerned about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 19:07:36


 
   
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No

I'd rather fight 120~ ork boys at T5 and it'll be more fun than 240+

$$$ per model + hopefully ork lists have less bodies

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 19:06:38


   
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You're complaining about T5 Orks not being lore-accurate and fluff-correct, and then brush off an example of Orks going toe to toe with Marines by linking a piece of fan fiction?


I am glad someone mentioned this.

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So 11 PPM for a T5, AP-1 Choppa Ork Boy. No other changes, Xeno?

Because compare 10 Boys to 3 Bladeguard Veterans.

10 Boys get 30 attacks.
20 hits.
10 wounds.
3-4 failed saves, or one dead Veteran.

3 Veterans get 12 attacks.
8 hits.
4 wounds.
4 dead Boys.

They do more damage (40% of the unit's effectiveness) than the Boys do to them (33%), while being a pretty optimal target for the Boys (2+ saves fear AP-1 more than worse saves) and wasting much of their own power (AP-3 and D2 are both wasted against Boys).

So, are BGV overpowered, Xeno?

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 Stevefamine wrote:
No

I'd rather fight 120~ ork boys at T5 and it'll be more fun than 240+

$$$ per model + hopefully ork lists have less bodies


Exactly. I have played enough horde armies to know that it gets super boring to just field a mindless amount of bodies. Boring for both parties involved. In one game my opponent ended up just watching football for half an hour while I rolled attacks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 19:11:05


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 Mr. Grey wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:


Honestly the flayed s even worse...For all the advantages of the ork - the only thing it gets is a crappy 4+ save that is going to be brought down to a 5+ or 6+ by pretty much every weapon in the game at this point including the orks weapon itself. An 11 point ork boy is better than this POS by a mile.




Literally just a page back you tried to argue this:

Orks will have 5++ saves (KFF is not going anywhere). At that point they are more durable than marines per point. Because -2 ap weapons are abundant. Weapons that ignore toughness are not abundant.


...and made it sound like a 5+ or 5++ armor save is practically unstoppable. Now it's "a crappy 4+ save that is going to be brought down to 5+ or 6+..."

Please make up your mind which one it is. Because it can't be both awesome and the best thing ever when it's on orks, and yet the worst thing in the world when it's a 5+ on Flayed Ones.

Invune saves...are not armor saves. Armor saves get ignored.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
So 11 PPM for a T5, AP-1 Choppa Ork Boy. No other changes, Xeno?

Because compare 10 Boys to 3 Bladeguard Veterans.

10 Boys get 30 attacks.
20 hits.
10 wounds.
3-4 failed saves, or one dead Veteran.

3 Veterans get 12 attacks.
8 hits.
4 wounds.
4 dead Boys.

They do more damage (40% of the unit's effectiveness) than the Boys do to them (33%), while being a pretty optimal target for the Boys (2+ saves fear AP-1 more than worse saves) and wasting much of their own power (AP-3 and D2 are both wasted against Boys).

So, are BGV overpowered, Xeno?
I dont use BGV but I have seen a lot math showing them beat lots of melee units. They probably are a little too cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eldarsif wrote:
You're complaining about T5 Orks not being lore-accurate and fluff-correct, and then brush off an example of Orks going toe to toe with Marines by linking a piece of fan fiction?


I am glad someone mentioned this.

It is accurate to the novel mostly - quotes directly from the book - 40k Novel sponsored by GW. AKA - not fan fiction. It is GW fiction. Which this whole game is...fiction.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 20:31:28


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Which this whole game is...fiction.


Well, I doubt any of the GW fiction ever stated explicitly that Orks are Toughness 4 just like Space Marines.

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 Eldarsif wrote:
Which this whole game is...fiction.


Well, I doubt any of the GW fiction ever stated explicitly that Orks are Toughness 4 just like Space Marines.


Could have sworn there was a quote in a Ciaphas Cain novel where he said something along the lines of "Ah ha! Good thing these hordes of orks are only Toughness 4, it'll be easy to take them down with my trusty bolt pistol."
   
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Isn't it what Ragnar and Sven get told by that wolf priest in the Bloodclaw novel though?

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cody.d. wrote:
OF course all of this is somewhat speciulation right?

On the gameplay side GW will likely up the points, possibly too far. Orks could be OP, balanced or weak based on numbers outside of the T value. (but based on the other Xenos books in 9th we should be fairly okay)

Orks have always been pretty damn tough in the lore, fighting even when considered dead. If GW ups their silly durability and gives it a nice comical swing then i'm up for it. Like an ork's head getting taken off but he still makes a dozen blind axe swings before keeling over. Possibly sinking the axe into one of his mates or some such. Just that fun chaotic energy that I adore from the greenskins.


Nail on the head so to speak. Xeno going into cardiac arrest trying to convince everyone that the world is ending over T5 orkz and we haven't even seen the points yet GW has a long and storied history of giving orkz "buffs" that for some reason make them less competitive. I'll just point to the entirety of the 7th edition codex as an example.

Karol wrote:

Not knowing the other rules or the point costs, it is hard to judge right now, but just look what low point costs and 9th ed style book did to a cheap chaff unit like witchs or a succubus. The t5 agregates, specially if it is a buff to everything orks have. If orks bikers are cheap enough and get the +1T, they could be a big winner of the codex. Same with nobz .


Again, i'll point you back towards the 7th edition codex as a wonderful example of ork "buffs" from GW, and i'll even further point to you the fact that orkz were blessed with not 1 but 2 supplements because the first actually had something marginally competitive in it and GW couldn't tolerate that.

As far as +1 for bikers and nobz. Well, nobz are T4 atm, so going to T5 is guaranteed unless someone at GW is just phoning it in...ohh crap. But I do want to point something out, what is the difference between T5 and T6 for warbikes and other similar units? Honestly, not much. The biggest bump is T3 to T4 and T4 to T5, after that there isn't that much of an appreciable jump in durability until you hit T8. How many S5-6 weapons do you see on a regular basis? honestly I don't see them all that often, at most it will make the heavy bolter less useful against a warbike but not that badly.

 Irbis wrote:

T4 IS being tough They literally have the same durability stat as superhuman soldier, they DON'T need to be equal to custodes, sister walkers, or smaller vehicles! If orks need to be tougher than that, give them FNP, not beyond idiotic stat inflation that makes bolters and heavy bolters, two weapons made to COUNTER orks less dangerous than lasguns to them!


Yes, the Old ones super soldiers, purpose built to fight the galaxy spanning war in heaven between literal star gods and the most advanced race ever seen in the Galaxy, they should be more durable than a Superhuman created by a guy who didn't pay child support and caused the galaxies most Devastating Jerry Springer episode.

On a somewhat serious note, its been covered pretty much indepth at this point, but FNP...orkz already have that in abundance, you can take Snakebites and get a 6+ FNP on literally your entire army, or you can take a better klan and just take a few painboyz as needed. A 6+FNP is functionally useless in terms of durability, especially in a meta filled with 2D weapons as Xeno loves to point out. So its roughly a 20% increase in # of shots needed to kill a boy (previously it took 36 wounds to kill 30 boyz, with a 6+ FNP it takes 43ish 7/36 = 19.44% Maffz But against D2 weapons, its basically...non-existent, 42 D2 shots becomes... almost 1 boy saved with a FNP. So in the current meta its not a 20% flat increase, its significantly less and would slow the game down a lot. You could say "Well than just give them a 5+FNP" similar results against D2 but otherwise not bad, problem being 2 fold, 1: i don't see people liking the idea of basic orkz getting a 5+FNP and 2: what would be the point of a Painboy?

Karol wrote:


Orks were already having a better then marines win rates, why would they need more stuff? Just so the ork players are happy? I guess that could be a argument, if ork players were the majority of all players, which they clearly are not. And all of this is assuming GW did tone stuff down and didn't create a liquifires style problem with some rule for orks. Because if they did the next CA book is in 6 months.
If orks still have Jump and don't cost 10pts, the breaks on unit efficiency is going to be huge. Even some units that are not used right now could be used again, specially on multi wound models.
Again, 7th edition ork codex Also, I do this math a lot for you, one day you will read it or at the very least remember it. 4th edition, orkz 6ppm, Marine 15ppm. Ork boy took 2.4ish S4 hits to die, Marine took 6. Marine was more than 2x as durable while costing 2.5x as much. 9th edition, Ork boy is 8ppm Marine is 18ppm Ork boy takes 2.4 S4 hits to die, Marine now takes 12, Marine is 5x more durable and costs 2.25x as much. So those Marines are now significantly more durable and cost less in comparison to orkz. Buffing Ork boyz to T5 it will be 3.6 S4 hits to kill an Ork Boy Which makes the Marine only more than 3x as durable as an ork boy, and assuming no price increase, it will still be cheaper than it was in past editions in comparison.

You guys are flipping out over Orkz recovering SOME of the losses they have taken in regards to durability vs Marines over the last 5 Editions.

 Xenomancers wrote:


Orks being Xeno/Alien - yes. They were specifically designed to be effective against giant monsters and crap back when the imperium conquered 2 MILLION worlds - yes...2 MILLION. Orks in literally every iteration of film or written excerpt are fodder whos only threat is being large in number. They aren't even presented as being particularly tough - but strong - even measly las guns kill them effectively. Str 5 would honestly make MORE sense than T5. It makes 0 sense that bolters have an easier time wounding other Astartes ether.

Orks take first place in a 68 man tournament against hordes of 70% WR Drukari...
Yes...We should totally give orks T5 and -1 on their choppas to compensate for their weakness.


Couple things, 1: LOTR is a thing, and if I am remembering correctly it was Orkz that conquered most of the human kingdoms, and it was an Ork that destroyed the Dwarven holds....BTW Good job on GW plagiarizing the hell out of LOTR Regardless Lore does not equal Game play.

As far as W/L vs Drukari...yeah, i know, weird right? Its almost like those Drukari players would have competed better against orkz if they hadn't taken as many Anti-Marine weapons...its almost like they purposefully built their lists to beat Marines.

 Xenomancers wrote:

They are literally spamming ork boys and commandoes to win. Mic drop. Lets buff that unit.
 Xenomancers wrote:
An ork should be easier to kill than a space marine. By a lot. Not a little.
Orks will have 5++ saves (KFF is not going anywhere). At that point they are more durable than marines per point. Because -2 ap weapons are abundant. Weapons that ignore toughness are not abundant.
They will still have numbers - they currently do and have higher win rate that every single space marine supplement - each having a different play style and having received new rules for 9th.


Yes we are, in fact I just won 5th place in a 20+ tournament by bringing 90 Boyz and 15 Kommandos. Want to know my specific reasoning for doing so? Because the meta is filled with D2 weapons aimed at Murdering Marines and are therefore less efficient when they run pellmell into 90+ bodies, BTW, I did have a KFF Big Mek in Mega Armor, want to know how many boyz he covered? Zero.

As I already showed above with the math, Orkz are now LESS durable point for point than Marines than they were in 4th edition. 2.4 hits to kill an ork, 6 to kill a Marine, you could take 2.5 orkz for every marine. So you needed ...wait for it....6 shots to kill 2.5 Ork boyz and 6 to kill 1 Marine. 9th edition right now its 2.4 hits to kill an Ork and 12 to kill a Marine, you can now take 2.25 Orkz for Every Marine, To kill 2.25 Orkz you need 5.4 S4 bolter hits You need 12 to kill that Marine, which means those Marines are now more than 2x as durable point for point than they were in 4th edition. And when Boyz get bumped to T5 assuming NO price increase the math will be 8.1 to kill 2.25 Orkz so the Marines are STILL more durable vs Orkz than they were in 4th edition (Vs 1dmg weapons) You again are literally complaining because you might have to use actual skill and tactics as opposed to pure list to beat your opponents.

 Xenomancers wrote:

This is a true story - Unless I was intercepting with a stratagem after the jump or firing overwatch. I have literally never shot an ork unit that didn't have a 5++ save except for a unit of flanking bikers 1 time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
daily reminder that including a KFF mek for your boyz blob (because you can only fit one 30-man boyz unit wholly under a KFF, its not like other auras you gotta be WHOLLY in it) effectively adds 2ppm to your boyz already.
....and there are still plenty of weapons that are vastly more effective vs 10ppm T5 5++ than 20ppm T4 4+. For starters, anything with blast, because hey, max shots!

No it doesn't when those boys die - it covers more boys.


You are either lying, or you've played like 2 games against Orkz and they brought only a handful of Boyz and put them under the KFF.

As far as "it covers more boys"....what game do you play? I generally don't keep boyz nearby a big mek KFF to replace fallen boyz, usually, and stay with me here, they are playing towards the objectives, and having a 240pt unit babysitting nearby a big mek KFF is a really good way to lose the game. Board control is a bit more important than a 5++ against the plethora of shots coming our way.

 Xenomancers wrote:

My initial thought was 9 points each...but -then I started comparing them to similar units like geenstellers and flayed ones (similar damage and durability) I think the minimum for a t5 ork boy with -1 ap attacks is probably 11 (and that is agressive) Flay ones are 14 points/ geens 13.

Geens have some bonus rules 5++ but are t4 (near equal durability vs the majority of Anti infantry weapons) the same weapons - same number of attacks(does get ap-4 on 6's)...ork has a pistol...both are essentially fearless in game. The only real advantage is move speed and advance and charge. Good rules - but the ork has way to get mobility and advance and charge...+2 points seems about right for what the Geen gets. Not to mention 30 man units for orcs another big advantage.

Honestly the flayed s even worse...For all the advantages of the ork - the only thing it gets is a crappy 4+ save that is going to be brought down to a 5+ or 6+ by pretty much every weapon in the game at this point including the orks weapon itself. An 11 point ork boy is better than this POS by a mile.

At 11 - are orks really gonna wanna spam them? Probably not. You'd be better off with current 8 point boys for that. So this is what happens when you confuse a units roll...boys are a horde unit that does a lot of damage but can't take much. T4 offers them decent mitigation without breaking the bank. That has always been the selling point.


I keep laughing at you when you bring this up. "orkz should be as expensive as genestealers and flayed ones! because they have similar dmg potential and stats". Cool story. How often are Genestealers and flayed ones making an appearance in tournament lists and making it into the top 4? Oh..huh...weird, literally zero this year. How about Flayed ones for Necrons? Surprisingly...zero. Its almost like....those 2 units you like to compare to are...wait for it....over priced garbage that nobody takes because they cost too much for what little they bring to the table.

Also, lets talk about "does a lot of dmg" if you MAGICALLY get all 30 boyz into CC with a unit of Intercessors, you get 120 attacks, 80 hits, 40 wounds and you kill a grand total of 6.6 Marines. Problem being 1: you will never get 30 boyz into CC because of the new CC rules and 2: Even if you did somehow squeeze them all into base to base or within 1' of b2b you will never get 30 boyz across the field unmolested unless you are also spending more points on a Weirdboy or CP on teleporta strike and than you are relying on about a 50/50 chance to fail your charge which basically eliminates those boyz.

But even with your correct statement which shows how god awful boyz are at dealing dmg right now, you keep forgetting that even if they get T5 they will still be less durable compared to those Marines than they were in 4th edition, or hell, 7th edition.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 22:57:55


 
   
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Has T5 orks been announced?
   
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 Byte wrote:
Has T5 orks been announced?
Yes, it has been

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Again, i'll point you back towards the 7th edition codex as a wonderful example of ork "buffs" from GW, and i'll even further point to you the fact that orkz were blessed with not 1 but 2 supplements because the first actually had something marginally competitive in it and GW couldn't tolerate that.

As far as +1 for bikers and nobz. Well, nobz are T4 atm, so going to T5 is guaranteed unless someone at GW is just phoning it in...ohh crap. But I do want to point something out, what is the difference between T5 and T6 for warbikes and other similar units? Honestly, not much. The biggest bump is T3 to T4 and T4 to T5, after that there isn't that much of an appreciable jump in durability until you hit T8. How many S5-6 weapons do you see on a regular basis? honestly I don't see them all that often, at most it will make the heavy bolter less useful against a warbike but not that badly.


Why should we care about 7th ed, when it was clearly writen with a different game system in mind. And yeah t5 on everything is, oh crap, when the main weapons in your entire army are str 4. Unless of course you want to do melee with 40pts+ models vs orks that have -1AP in melee and what 4 attacks each?

As for how many str 6 weapons I see in my army, not many. 2 MM on dreadnoughts and that is more or less it. And I don't think psycanons with their cost and their stats are helping against orks at all.


Again, 7th edition ork codex Also, I do this math a lot for you, one day you will read it or at the very least remember it. 4th edition, orkz 6ppm, Marine 15ppm. Ork boy took 2.4ish S4 hits to die, Marine took 6. Marine was more than 2x as durable while costing 2.5x as much. 9th edition, Ork boy is 8ppm Marine is 18ppm Ork boy takes 2.4 S4 hits to die, Marine now takes 12, Marine is 5x more durable and costs 2.25x as much. So those Marines are now significantly more durable and cost less in comparison to orkz. Buffing Ork boyz to T5 it will be 3.6 S4 hits to kill an Ork Boy Which makes the Marine only more than 3x as durable as an ork boy, and assuming no price increase, it will still be cheaper than it was in past editions in comparison.


Was the marine and the boy actually considered the core of the either army in 7th. Because from what I have been told, which is again stories, the basic marine was either a centurion, one of 6+ characters in the same unit with buffs making the whole unit invunerable or the marine was actually a razorback.

You are doing math for units that are not use or who do not face off against each other on the table. Want some bad stats? take 1W scouts in a venguard detachment vs orks, +5 sv , higher costs, 1W just like orks, only t4. And if csm were anything like they were in 8th, then the basic csm had the stats of a cultist. ork t5 is a problem, because they actually do spam and play those lists, and they are a hard skew for lists which can't counter, DE, marines and swarms at the same time, while non marine armies can easily do it, because anit marine meta generaly does not effect their lists that much. But who knows, maybe boys are 14pts and balanced with rules somehow.







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 Byte wrote:
Has T5 orks been announced?


Yup yup yup! GW has shown us the statlines of old boyz, snagga lads and Choppas, Big choppas and the new bosses Uge choppas. So yes it's thankfully set in stone and it's why some peeps are hyped and others are panicking.

Personally I'm still super keen to see what our main faction rules are. Dakka Dakka Dakka and Ere we go will shape a lotta our gameplay.
   
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T5 orks. 6 ppm. Discuss.
   
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blaktoof wrote:
T5 orks. 6 ppm. Discuss.



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blaktoof wrote:
T5 orks. 6 ppm. Discuss.


I long for this.

Back to the price boyz are supposed to be!

 
   
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blaktoof wrote:
T5 orks. 6 ppm. Discuss.


Sure, but then you have to buy a 3pt choppa upgrade or a 2 point shoota upgrade.
   
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And yeah t5 on everything is, oh crap, when the main weapons in your entire army are str 4.


Cry me a river because last I checked, marines still outshoot orks with a higher ballistic skill of 3+ compared to the orks 5+, not to mention the longer ranges on boltguns and bolt rifles. But go on...


You are doing math for units that are not use or who do not face off against each other on the table.


What does this mean? Are you implying that marines never face off against ork boyz on the tabletop? Because I'm pretty sure that's incorrect.

   
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Seriously though, 8ppm for a T5 ork. They are a 6+ save model, regardless of the nonsense of if you buy this 100pt model over here you can give 20-30 of them a 5++ against shooting.

The game isn't just shooting and that is a 100+pt tax model. There are a lot of guns and shooting that are ap0 and ap-1 which a 3+ is very good against(cover exists in 9th). All the people trying to say orks should be 14ppm because marines are popular and all my oponnents tech to kill marines is a silly argument. That is a meta issue, as metas shift there will be less ap-2 or -3 D2 guns in armies.

3+ armor is real and has value, if you think it doesn't I suggest you lobby for 6+ armor and a close to useless model that can buff one or two of your units against shooting only for a 5++. You won't, because you know it's worse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 02:31:41


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:

Why should we care about 7th ed, when it was clearly writen with a different game system in mind. And yeah t5 on everything is, oh crap, when the main weapons in your entire army are str 4. Unless of course you want to do melee with 40pts+ models vs orks that have -1AP in melee and what 4 attacks each?

As for how many str 6 weapons I see in my army, not many. 2 MM on dreadnoughts and that is more or less it. And I don't think psycanons with their cost and their stats are helping against orks at all.

Because it shows a history of GW's inability to "buff" orkz. Take a look at the Stompa, its been functionally useless for its entire life. Kanz haven't been relevant since the 4th edition codex, GW seems to think a Rokkit is worth 10pts....while at the same time pricing a Multi-Melta at 20pts. A single rokkit is 1 shot, S8 AP-2 3D a MM is 2 shots S8 AP-4 D6 and D6+2 dmg. So orkz are paying literally the same price per shot at BS5 as a Marine is at BS3 for a better S8 weapon. And T5 isn't an "oh crap" scenario because your armies main weapon likely isn't Str 4. In the most recent SM tournament placing list the guy only took 15 Troops, none with standard bolters, all were Primaris S4 AP-1 or sniper rifles, next list that won was DA and was just littered with characters and Multi-melta bikes and Deathwing terminators with hammer and shield. List after that another DA list with lots and lots of terminators and Heavy weapons, list after that Smurfs featuring a butt load of Dreads, MM Attack bikes and Devastator squads. List after that another Smurf list featuring a lot of dreads, list after that? White scars featuring dreads, Vanguard vets with Claw and shield and some Bladeguard.

Some of those lists literally didn't have any troops choices, most had more heavy weapons than bolters. So when you say S4 as basic weapons for your army you must not play Marines, because in the tournament meta, people are barely taking Bolters at all.


Again, 7th edition ork codex Also, I do this math a lot for you, one day you will read it or at the very least remember it. 4th edition, orkz 6ppm, Marine 15ppm. Ork boy took 2.4ish S4 hits to die, Marine took 6. Marine was more than 2x as durable while costing 2.5x as much. 9th edition, Ork boy is 8ppm Marine is 18ppm Ork boy takes 2.4 S4 hits to die, Marine now takes 12, Marine is 5x more durable and costs 2.25x as much. So those Marines are now significantly more durable and cost less in comparison to orkz. Buffing Ork boyz to T5 it will be 3.6 S4 hits to kill an Ork Boy Which makes the Marine only more than 3x as durable as an ork boy, and assuming no price increase, it will still be cheaper than it was in past editions in comparison.


Karol wrote:
Was the marine and the boy actually considered the core of the either army in 7th. Because from what I have been told, which is again stories, the basic marine was either a centurion, one of 6+ characters in the same unit with buffs making the whole unit invunerable or the marine was actually a razorback.

You are doing math for units that are not use or who do not face off against each other on the table. Want some bad stats? take 1W scouts in a venguard detachment vs orks, +5 sv , higher costs, 1W just like orks, only t4. And if csm were anything like they were in 8th, then the basic csm had the stats of a cultist. ork t5 is a problem, because they actually do spam and play those lists, and they are a hard skew for lists which can't counter, DE, marines and swarms at the same time, while non marine armies can easily do it, because anit marine meta generaly does not effect their lists that much. But who knows, maybe boys are 14pts and balanced with rules somehow.
The comparison I made was between 4th edition and 9th edition, and in 4th Edition Space Marines...as well as basically everyone, was required to take a specific number of troops choices. So you usually had at the least 3 troops choices in your list. So yes, it was the "core" of the army. Also, in 4th-6th Orkz were competitive not with green tide but with Warbikes, nob bikers, Kan Wall and battle wagon rush.

But you are correct, I did do math for units that "do not face off against each other on the table" and you want to know why? Because the Marine codex has better options than an model that pays 9pts per T4 3+ wound where as the Ork codex has few builds better than a 6pt per T4 6+ wound. tournament players know they are going to face off against a lot of Marine players, so why bring S4 -1AP bolters to the table when you can instead bring a multi-melta devastator or a MM attack bike, or vanguard vets etc etc. And again you are correct, Ork boyz are a "hard skew" list. But that is because orkz don't have many other options. Our brand new buggies kind of suck, the Scrapjet is in my opinion the best one and it melts in the current meta where I know I will be facing off against 6-12 MM or equivalent weapons. And orkz don't counter DE, in fact, DE have a lot of really solid hard counters to orkz. The thing is, nobody is taking those hard counters because they wont face orkz often, so instead go for the dark lances etc.

Finally. If ork boyz go to 14ppm they will be essentially dead. I honestly think if boyz go to 10ppm they will struggle. But I really want to point out something. I've done the math/comparison a hundred times between orkz and Marines in 4th compared to 9th. Ork boyz are worse in every single possible way to Space Marines in 9th, and yet Marine players don't take as many Tacs or even intercessors as possible. But Orkz spam boyz as much as they can in events. Take that and think about it and get back to me.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Not to disagree with you Semper but there was a period when the stompa was okay. But that was when each time it fired it dropped a terminator killing blast that covered most of a 2x2 quadrant of the board. So unless you had a cover save or an invul you pretty much died on the spot. Good times.

But yes, through 8th and 9th where you had to actually make a hit roll it's been terrible as GW tends to price things at the top end of the capability not the average.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 04:08:55


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





Time to get those D str scatter lasers back into the game just so xenomancer can kill some ork boyz


Automatically Appended Next Post:
blaktoof wrote:
T5 orks. 6 ppm. Discuss.


Sure, but Ork Morale has to matter more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 06:31:19


 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

SM can spam ass can razorbacks. Why do some players care so much about T5 boyz and T3 gretchins? Assault cannons would still wound boyz on 3s and gretchins on 2s, like the +1T buff never happened .


 
   
Made in id
Fresh-Faced New User




SemperMortis wrote:

4th edition, orkz 6ppm, Marine 15ppm.


Usually i'm a lurker, but i just to have to correct you on this. Even though technically correct that Ork Boys is 6ppm in 4th.... but it happened only for 1/2 a year in the edition with Orks being the last codex (Jan 2008) before 5th rolled out (Jul 2008?). I believe they are in the vicinity of 9-11 ppm during the duration of 4th. Marines too are never 15ppm in 4th.... only Dark Angels (and i believe WD Blood Angels?) are 15 ppm. Marines are 18ppm with no nades, no pistols. All you stated here are 5th ed Stats...

Everything else in your argument though, i agree with. I believe the T5 Orks just need upward points adjustment and it's not doom and gloom. In terms of lore, since the lore only has vague statement like Orks are tough, it's really hard to state whether T5 is too high or not. So trudge along with the discussion guys.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





I have no real issues with T5 Ork Boyz, it's not how I would have done it (I would have kept Ork Boyz more or less as is and made them as cheap as possiable, while Making Nobz a troop choice, thus giving Orks 3 distinct grades of troops. grots who are COMPLETE fodder, Boyz whom are "fodder but tougher then say.. guard" and Nobz who would be T5 W2 and be what an Ork player runs if he wants a force where his warriors are individually hard to kill.

But I'm not a GW designer so *shrugs*

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






blaktoof wrote:
Seriously though, 8ppm for a T5 ork. They are a 6+ save model, regardless of the nonsense of if you buy this 100pt model over here you can give 20-30 of them a 5++ against shooting.

The game isn't just shooting and that is a 100+pt tax model. There are a lot of guns and shooting that are ap0 and ap-1 which a 3+ is very good against(cover exists in 9th). All the people trying to say orks should be 14ppm because marines are popular and all my oponnents tech to kill marines is a silly argument. That is a meta issue, as metas shift there will be less ap-2 or -3 D2 guns in armies.

3+ armor is real and has value, if you think it doesn't I suggest you lobby for 6+ armor and a close to useless model that can buff one or two of your units against shooting only for a 5++. You won't, because you know it's worse.



I play orks (it is even my main army ATM) and say yes to this 8 pmm for the toughness 5 orks (and ap-1 choppas), but then other things should change lest "Boyz spam" become OP:
- No more Green tide strat
- No more da jump turn 1
- Can't think of any other "good" suggestion.

So perhaps I am more inclined to say 9 ppm boyz is a safer bet when striving for balance.

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
 
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