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Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Imperium hits 9/10 of Umberto Eco's properties of fascism with the force of exterminatus. The only one it doesn't is "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class" and this is because in the Imperium there is pretty much no middle class. There is the ruling class and then there is everyone else.

The Imperium is fascist.

Which is one definition of fascism. Historians just can't agree on what it actually is. As Ian Kershaw once wrote "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall".
Pretty sure Eco also said that his list isn't to be used to identity fascism, but to identity what fascism may "coagulate around".
He also said you only need one of them, which is a bit of loose requirement but ok.


Speaking of Ian Kershaw:
In his history of Europe in the first half of the 20th century, To Hell and Back, British historian Ian Kershaw, while noting the difficulties in defining fascism, found these common factors in the extreme Right-wing movements of the late 1920s and early 1930s, whether they called themselves "fascist" or not:

Hypernationalism - based on the integrated nation cleansed of the influence of ethnic minorities, "foreign" races, and other undesirable elements;
Racial exclusiveness - although not necessarily the biological racism of the Nazis - a cleansed nation would allow the unique or superior qualities of the people to come forth;
Complete destruction of political enemies - through radical and violent means, not only against Marxists, but also democrats, liberals, and reactionaries;
An emphasis on discipline, manliness and militarism - linked to authoritarianism and often involving the use of paramilitary forces.

Other features Kershaw found to be important, and sometimes central to specific movements, but not present in all:

The creation of a "new man" and a new society - requiring the total commitment of the population to the overturning of the existing social order and the building of a national utopia, in "a revolution of mentalities, values and will";
Irredentist or imperialist goals - not necessarily all expansionist in nature;
Anti-capitalism;
Corporatism - the reorganization of the national economy along corporatist lines, with trade unions eliminated and groupings of economic interests called "corporations" (i.e. Industrial and agricultural workers, Teachers and students, Lawyers and doctors, Civil servants, etc.) regulated by the state.


The Imperium is fascist.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I disagree, to me the aesthetic is mostly medieval with a heavy hit of industrialism. The aesthetic takes inspiration from many places, not just Fascist Italy and Germany.


Well that is kind of a my problem with the assumption. Germany wasn't fasist, and neither it, nor italy or any other fasists state in europe had anything in common with how the empire functions. There was no hereditary offices, or parts of goverment existing outside of party control etc As I said, I assumed that maybe there are more similar types of it in south or central americas, and that is why the terms is being so used from US posters, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Again only in common thing they have is the leader cult, and that is something other political system have. Which makes really confused, because it starts to sound as if the term starts to mean , something I don't like. And then the term loses most of it meaning. It is like calling a circle, anything I want to call a circle. Not very useful in arguments either.

So the corporate heads were arguably also part of the state.

Krupp or Ford were definitly not state owned. That is why they had contests to build planes engines etc. It would be like saying that microsoft or amazon is the state, because at some point of it existance it took funding from the state or performed operations ordered or asked by the state.


I heard in time those companies would've been dissolved too and made to go for the State. Thing is we fought a world war before it could really happen so it didn't get to that phase.

Well only we can check the history books for that. The fasist regime started in Spain in the mid 30s, ended in the 60s or 70s. We can ask Galas about the precise date. Companies were nationalised in Spain, there was still private property. The same was with Italy, Poland (fasist regime for 13 years) etc. Yes some industries were nationalised, mostly state monopols to be sold off to Sweeden or France or US in return for loans, and anything related to the military industry. And even that wasn't a thing everywhere. We did it. But Musolini never took full state control of he Fiat.


as the cooperation goes. Neither El Duce or mr Mustache had problems with loaning engineers, loans , know how etc to the soviet state up until 1940s. So the hate must have not been that bad. Heck in out state under a military junta, communists got so chummy with them, that Stalin delegalized the Polish Communist Party and kicked them out of commintern. Well that and they were friends with Lenin and Trocky, and Stalin never liked people who were close to either of those two, after Lenins death.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
Your definition of fascism is wrong flaming. The Nazis are fascist and they hated communism (state ownership of all assets). They killed communists in concentration camps. Large companies like Siemens and so on worked closely with the Nazis and benefited from slave labour but were not state owned.

Not entirely true. Whilst they weren't owned by the state per se, corporate heads were members of the Nazi party. In fact I'm pretty sure you had to be a member of the Nazi party and work with them in order to function.
So the corporate heads were arguably also part of the state.
It is true though that fascism is against the Free Market (like communism) but is fine with Crony Capitalism (not like Communism)


Membership of the party =/= the means of production being owned by the state. It also does not mean you are part of the state in the sense of being involved in the running of the state.

Did the Nazi party receive all of the profits made by Schindler's factories?

Or is Walmart owned by the Republican party as the Walton family are no doubt republican party members.

That depends, is Walmart only allowed to exist as long as it's aligned with the Republican party and gives them funding?
Because Nazi corporation were punished if they went against the National interest. It was a form of light coercion; businesses were allowed to operate as the owner wished, but only if they supported the state's economic goals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Imperium hits 9/10 of Umberto Eco's properties of fascism with the force of exterminatus. The only one it doesn't is "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class" and this is because in the Imperium there is pretty much no middle class. There is the ruling class and then there is everyone else.

The Imperium is fascist.

Which is one definition of fascism. Historians just can't agree on what it actually is. As Ian Kershaw once wrote "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall".
Pretty sure Eco also said that his list isn't to be used to identity fascism, but to identity what fascism may "coagulate around".
He also said you only need one of them, which is a bit of loose requirement but ok.


Speaking of Ian Kershaw:
In his history of Europe in the first half of the 20th century, To Hell and Back, British historian Ian Kershaw, while noting the difficulties in defining fascism, found these common factors in the extreme Right-wing movements of the late 1920s and early 1930s, whether they called themselves "fascist" or not:

Hypernationalism - based on the integrated nation cleansed of the influence of ethnic minorities, "foreign" races, and other undesirable elements;
Racial exclusiveness - although not necessarily the biological racism of the Nazis - a cleansed nation would allow the unique or superior qualities of the people to come forth;
Complete destruction of political enemies - through radical and violent means, not only against Marxists, but also democrats, liberals, and reactionaries;
An emphasis on discipline, manliness and militarism - linked to authoritarianism and often involving the use of paramilitary forces.


The Imperium is fascist.

That's fair, but those elements could also arguably be found in the Soviet Union or North Korea (especially points 3 and 4), which would imply that whilst those traits are found in fascist regimes they are not unique to them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 10:01:04


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Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
Your definition of fascism is wrong flaming. The Nazis are fascist and they hated communism (state ownership of all assets). They killed communists in concentration camps. Large companies like Siemens and so on worked closely with the Nazis and benefited from slave labour but were not state owned.

Not entirely true. Whilst they weren't owned by the state per se, corporate heads were members of the Nazi party. In fact I'm pretty sure you had to be a member of the Nazi party and work with them in order to function.
So the corporate heads were arguably also part of the state.
It is true though that fascism is against the Free Market (like communism) but is fine with Crony Capitalism (not like Communism)


Membership of the party =/= the means of production being owned by the state. It also does not mean you are part of the state in the sense of being involved in the running of the state.

Did the Nazi party receive all of the profits made by Schindler's factories?

Or is Walmart owned by the Republican party as the Walton family are no doubt republican party members.

That depends, is Walmart only allowed to exist as long as it's aligned with the Republican party and gives them funding?
Because Nazi corporation were punished if they went against the National interest. It was a form of light coercion; businesses were allowed to operate as the owner wished, but only if they supported the state's economic goals.


Ah, so like Georgia threatening to remove tax breaks from corporations who criticised their new voter id laws.

Here's another definition of fascism, this one from Robert Paxton:
Robert Paxton, a professor emeritus at Columbia University, defines fascism in his 2004 book The Anatomy of Fascism as:

A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

In the same book, Paxton also argues that fascism's foundations lie in a set of "mobilizing passions" rather than an elaborated doctrine. He argues these passions can explain much of the behaviour of fascists:

a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions.
the primacy of the group, toward which one has duties superior to every right, whether individual or universal, and the subordination of the individual to it.
the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external.
dread of the group’s decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict, and alien influences.
the need for closer integration of a purer community, by consent if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary.
the need for authority by natural chiefs (always male), culminating in a national chieftain who alone is capable of incarnating the group’s historical destiny.
the superiority of the leader’s instincts over abstract and universal reason.
the beauty of violence and the efficacy of will, when they are devoted to the group’s success.
the right of the chosen people to dominate others without restraint from any kind of human or divine law, right being decided by the sole criterion of the group’s prowess within a Darwinian struggle.


Again, the Imperium fits.

Stanley G. Payne:
A. Ideology and Goals:
Espousal of an idealist, vitalist, and voluntaristic philosophy, normally involving the attempt to realize a new modern, self-determined, and secular culture
Creation of a new nationalist authoritarian state not based on traditional principles or models
Organization of a new highly regulated, multiclass, integrated national economic structure, whether called national corporatist, national socialist, or national syndicalist
Positive evaluation and use of, or willingness to use, violence and war
The goal of empire, expansion, or a radical change in the nation's relationship with other powers

B. The Fascist Negations:
Antiliberalism
Anticommunism
Anticonservatism (though with the understanding that fascist groups were willing to undertake temporary alliances with other sectors, more commonly with the right)

C. Style and Organization:
Attempted mass mobilization with militarization of political relationships and style and with the goal of a mass single party militia
Emphasis on aesthetic structure of meetings, symbols, and political liturgy, stressing emotional and mystical aspects
Extreme stress on the masculine principle and male dominance, while espousing a strongly organic view of society
Exaltation of youth above other phases of life, emphasizing the conflict of the generations, at least in effecting the initial political transformation
Specific tendency toward an authoritarian, charismatic, personal style of command, whether or not the command is to some degree initially elective


Starting to think the Imperium may be fascist, people.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/01 10:08:28


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

The Imperium has Fascism on its worlds given the wide range of variance you would expect in systems of governance, the Imperium is not Fascist as it is anti revolutionary and hyper conservative by its very design, this means it cannot by definition be fascist as one cannot conserve a revolutionary ideology pre revolution, one can of course conserve the effects of that ideology post revolution which its possible to argue that the Imperium is a post revolution fascist state but since it has not implemented socialism that also cannot be true and does not work as a justification for calling it fascist, the great crusade was authoritarian/totalitarian but not Fascist either.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 10:06:42


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




hypernationalism - based on the integrated nation cleansed of the influence of ethnic minorities, "foreign" races, and other undesirable elements;
Racial exclusiveness - although not necessarily the biological racism of the Nazis - a cleansed nation would allow the unique or superior qualities of the people to come forth

Doesn't happen in the imperium. As long as you pay taxs, neighter the goverment nor the church are very interested how you do it. There are planets where the emperor is a sky warrior god, where children human sacrifice are the norm and on other planets it is not. The imperium is as diverse as the many planets that make it up.

Racial exclusiveness - although not necessarily the biological racism of the Nazis - a cleansed nation would allow the unique or superior qualities of the people to come forth;

nagivators, ogryns, felinids , ratling etc would all be dead under a nazi regime. Ah and fasists did not care about the race most of the time. In Italy, Spain or Poland the loyality to the state was more important, then any racial or religion divivdes. Which makes sense considering how racially diverse all three of those countries are. So the imperium is neither fasist, nor a nazi entity.

Complete destruction of political enemies

That is hardly a fasist specific trait. Plus the imperium litterally has separatists faction which would not be accepted to exist in a nazi or fasist state. Something like a church, with state influance powers, not linked to the party would be a mind blowing idea to politicians in the 20s-30s in fasist states.


An emphasis on discipline, manliness and militarism

that makes majority of human sociaties recorded fasist. I can't think of a single entity that would not promot discipline and manliness to build a working sociaty. Maybe anarchists, but there never were any anarchist states ever created, and there never will be.

The creation of a "new man" and a new society

that is what every new movment does. XIV-XVth century church reformers talked about the time of creating new men. Early christians were creating new man in the 5th century. That is hardly a fasist specific trait. I mean at the same time communists were creating the homo sovieticus, that doesn't make them fasists.

"a revolution of mentalities, values and will"

That is a citiation from Trosky. Which I find amusing.

Irredentist or imperialist goals,Anti-capitalism;

that is double wrong, not only were fasists not anti capitalist, but neither is the empire. Private trade, private own companies, factories etc all exist within the empire.

Corporatism - the reorganization of the national economy along corporatist lines, with trade unions eliminated and groupings of economic interests called "corporations" (i.e. Industrial and agricultural workers, Teachers and students, Lawyers and doctors, Civil servants, etc.) regulated by the state.

That one is kind of a true. but the imperium has stuff fasists regimes would never tolerate. Mercenary companies, private industries in crucial industries related to military, engines production etc Plus it is kind of a restrictive too. Today if someone goes to any western country and they want to be a lawyer, doctor or electrician, they have to nostrify they diploma or the two countries have to have an agreement that they both aknowladge each other education systems to be the same. Saying just because one needs to be on the board of lawyers of a state, makes the state fasists sounds like huge stretch.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Starting to think the Imperium may be fascist, people

Your picking professors who were or are either hard left, members of parties or both at the same time Krenshaw left the party because he found its policies twords brexit not left leaning enough. That is like taking professors from pre 89s and asking what fasism was.

Fasism movment were not anti communist, because of communism, as both had the same socialists root, and often had the same problems. Fasists just did not accept the fact that a parties policy can not be decided in Madrid or Rome or Warsaw, but in Moscov. That is why their beef was only with the local communists, neither of the fasist countries, not even Poland who had a history of war with soviets in the 1920s, had problems with cooperating communists in Russia or China.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

That depends, is Walmart only allowed to exist as long as it's aligned with the Republican party and gives them funding?
Because Nazi corporation were punished if they went against the National interest. It was a form of light coercion; businesses were allowed to operate as the owner wished, but only if they supported the state's economic goals..

Why would a company which produces engines or vehicles be against the nationali interest? Mussolini comes to you, symbolically, and asks for X number of engines to build up the new italian air force. Why would you not build them? I mean the only way for this to happen, is if your company somehow benefited from other countries doing well, or if you were trying to make your country run bad. And I can't think of a single example of a company that did that between WWI and WWII. Plus this went for only crucial industries. If you, to be more on topic, created lead toy soldiers the state wasn't very much interested in it besides the usual safty regulations etc.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/01 10:24:18


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Here's another definition of fascism, this one from Robert Paxton:
Robert Paxton, a professor emeritus at Columbia University, defines fascism in his 2004 book The Anatomy of Fascism as:

A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

In the same book, Paxton also argues that fascism's foundations lie in a set of "mobilizing passions" rather than an elaborated doctrine. He argues these passions can explain much of the behaviour of fascists:

a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions.
the primacy of the group, toward which one has duties superior to every right, whether individual or universal, and the subordination of the individual to it.
the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external.
dread of the group’s decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict, and alien influences.
the need for closer integration of a purer community, by consent if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary.
the need for authority by natural chiefs (always male), culminating in a national chieftain who alone is capable of incarnating the group’s historical destiny.
the superiority of the leader’s instincts over abstract and universal reason.
the beauty of violence and the efficacy of will, when they are devoted to the group’s success.
the right of the chosen people to dominate others without restraint from any kind of human or divine law, right being decided by the sole criterion of the group’s prowess within a Darwinian struggle.


Isn't the first paragraph also applicable to various revolutionary movements? Is the Imperium a revolutionary movement? Also, what democratic liberties did the Imperium abandon? Because when the Emperor formed the Imperium there were no democratic liberties left, were there?

Those set of emotions are also applicable to revolutionary sentiment.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Stanley G. Payne:
A. Ideology and Goals:
Espousal of an idealist, vitalist, and voluntaristic philosophy, normally involving the attempt to realize a new modern, self-determined, and secular culture - Well the Imperium isn't secular. Also the same could be said of Revolutionary France and the USSR, which did try to get rid of religion. Funnily enough, it is applicable to Tau which is super secular and idealistic
Creation of a new nationalist authoritarian state not based on traditional principles or models Isn't the Imperium really traditional? To the point they won't even innovate new tech? The Tau though...
Organization of a new highly regulated, multiclass, integrated national economic structure, whether called national corporatist, national socialist, or national syndicalist Not sure that's applicable to the Imperium because of how decentralized it is
Positive evaluation and use of, or willingness to use, violence and warThat's like, every faction in the setting
The goal of empire, expansion, or a radical change in the nation's relationship with other powersOk fair enough, but again, so do most of the other factions. And real life civilisations, come to think of it.

B. The Fascist Negations:
Antiliberalism Applicable to the higher levels of government, but arguably not on a local level. But anti-liberalism isn't fascist in itself anyway
Anticommunism Does communism even exist in 40k?
Anticonservatism (though with the understanding that fascist groups were willing to undertake temporary alliances with other sectors, more commonly with the right) Isn't the Imperium really conservative?

C. Style and Organization:
Attempted mass mobilization with militarization of political relationships and style and with the goal of a mass single party militia Applicable to the Imperium, I would think, but again not a fascist trait itself but a militaristic one
Emphasis on aesthetic structure of meetings, symbols, and political liturgy, stressing emotional and mystical aspects Definitely applicable, but again, is it uniquely a fascist trait?
Extreme stress on the masculine principle and male dominance, while espousing a strongly organic view of society Not applicable, actually. The Imperium overall doesn't care if you are a man or a woman
Exaltation of youth above other phases of life, emphasizing the conflict of the generations, at least in effecting the initial political transformation Is that applicable? I'm not sure if it is to the Imperium as a whole
Specific tendency toward an authoritarian, charismatic, personal style of command, whether or not the command is to some degree initially elective Arguably not specific to fascism either, and especially not uniquely applicable to the Imperium


I dunno man, just seems authoritarian to me. I will agree that there may be apparent "fascist" undertones (The Third Reich would have certainly been one of the sources of influence), but there are so many other undertones that calling it fascist as if the Imperium is a fascist state in it's entirety doesn't seem accurate to me. Those "fascist" undertones could have just as easily come from the Soviet Union, for example. Authoritarian hell-hole is an authoritarian hell-hole.

I did notice though that in that list some traits seem applicable to Tau. Which is amusing to me, because the meme (which is also inaccurate) is that they are Space Communists.

This message was edited 18 times. Last update was at 2021/08/01 13:18:23


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
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Bristol

Karol wrote:
hypernationalism - based on the integrated nation cleansed of the influence of ethnic minorities, "foreign" races, and other undesirable elements;
Racial exclusiveness - although not necessarily the biological racism of the Nazis - a cleansed nation would allow the unique or superior qualities of the people to come forth

Doesn't happen in the imperium. As long as you pay taxs, neighter the goverment nor the church are very interested how you do it. There are planets where the emperor is a sky warrior god, where children human sacrifice are the norm and on other planets it is not. The imperium is as diverse as the many planets that make it up.

Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean.

Gonna have to disagree on that one. Be born with a third arm, or horns, or a tail, or any other kind of mutation which they don't find useful and see how the Imperium treats you.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/01 10:50:17


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

I did notice though that in that list some traits seem applicable to Tau. Which is amusing to me, because the meme (which is also inaccurate) is that they are Space Communists.


That is likely due to Fascism and Socialism being so close to each other philosophically, one is derived from the other after all, the formost expert Zeev Sternhill went into great detail explaining this and laying out the origins of Fascism and the socialists who lost "faith" in marxism who created it.

So similar that the NatSocs used to joke about "soon all the fascists will be out of the SA" and had a derogatory name for the Communists that joined them "Beefsteak N'zi" hell, even ANTIFA of the time joined up with the SA and NatSocs







So tonally as I said a while back the lampooning of Hegelism, Fascism, Socialism is just fine by me, though some seem to miss this somehow

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 10:48:49


 
   
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Formosa wrote:That is likely due to Fascism and Socialism being so close to each other philosophically
"How to tell everyone that you don't understand either subject you're talking about 101."


They/them

 
   
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on the forum. Obviously

 Formosa wrote:
I did notice though that in that list some traits seem applicable to Tau. Which is amusing to me, because the meme (which is also inaccurate) is that they are Space Communists.

even ANTIFA of the time joined up with the SA and NatSocs


I'm going to need a citation for that, that sounds improbable.
I know the Weimar Republic had some pretty crazy death throes, but that doesn't sound right at all, as ANTIFA was the militant wing of the German Communist Party.
Perhaps you are thinking of the time they both ganged up on the Iron Front? Though that wasn't really an alliance, that was more like getting caught in the middle of two rabid dogs.

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~1660

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Peace through power!

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Northumberland

 Olthannon wrote:
This isn't a political post, sure it uses political words but its just looking at the history of 40k and the people who created and developed the setting. I think it's extremely difficult to remove the two when they are indelible. That's how people create stories and build universes.

The Imperium of man is just a natural progression of the politics of the 80s, particularly in the UK. And I think a lot of people now in the hobby seem to really struggle with that.
I think that is particularly the case with a global audience, particularly those who hold conservative views. And I think that is why people love to argue against the fascist elements of the imperium. They are really obviously there. They are there deliberately to remind you the imperium aren't the good guys. There is absolutely no reason to argue the toss about the semantics of fascism unless you aren't comfortable with the word and what it really means. If you can't read between the lines a little, then I don't think you'll ever properly understand that. Are people expecting the Emperor to just eventually wake up, crack a bleary eye after millenia on the throne and hoarsely croak "are we the baddies?".

Is that modern education and a lack of critical thinking at fault? Or is it just people never told how to read a source and work out what is really being said? Remember the arts and humanities are important kids.

Of course everyone living in the current decade where there are a *lot* of similarities to the 1980s and so now you have people saying "oh I see where they got that from" when they interact with the hobby. The trouble is you shouldn't have to live through something to be able to understand the point behind it.

Private greedy corporations sucking planetary resources dry. Earth itself a post apocalyptic wasteland after nuclear destruction. An ignorant wasteful humanity living among the stars with ordinary people toiling in unending drudgery until their short lives are eradicated. Those that have wealth living off that toil and growing as fat and corpulent as the government that keeps them in power. Endless billions sent to war while entire planets are ripped apart and mined to provide arms and armour for their pitiful struggle against an unending tide of darkness.

That's the tone of 40k, this 'grimdark' meme is made up by people who, at its core, just don't understand the lore and the universe. It's a cold hard look at a future that as we seem determined to relive the 1980s seem to be sliding ever close to.

The tone of 40k is bleak. The hopelessness of life in a galaxy of war and fear. And because that's so damn miserable, you need a lot of comic relief.


So just to go back to my original post here in this thread and hopefully get this back on topic, we've got to yes there are fascist elements in the Imperium? The thing that I said. Wonderful.

Just to reiterate: it is absolutely pointless arguing the semantics of the word fascism. Where exactly does it lead? Going round and round the point because someone doesn't like the fact that the horrible future fascist authoritarian state in the fictional world of little plastic toys is bad? What's the point in this entire discussion?

Because there are clear fascist elements in the 40k lore concerning the Imperium. It is to remind you that the Imperium aren't the good guys.

"Um well all these things mean that the made up fictional state of the Imperium can't possibly be fascist so there!"

If you can only debate the word and not the entire context and history behind it then you aren't getting it. Again what I said in my original post. And so this will just go round and round and round until we all die of utter boredom. Unless of course I'm already dead and this is some weird corner of hell to be punished for my sins then I'd rather go help that lad Sisyphus. What a waste of time that would be eh?



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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
I did notice though that in that list some traits seem applicable to Tau. Which is amusing to me, because the meme (which is also inaccurate) is that they are Space Communists.

even ANTIFA of the time joined up with the SA and NatSocs


I'm going to need a citation for that, that sounds improbable.
I know the Weimar Republic had some pretty crazy death throes, but that doesn't sound right at all, as ANTIFA was the militant wing of the German Communist Party.
Perhaps you are thinking of the time they both ganged up on the Iron Front? Though that wasn't really an alliance, that was more like getting caught in the middle of two rabid dogs.


I will PM you as I do not want to derail this thread that is supposed to be about tone lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are you arguing with yourself Olthannon ?

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 Olthannon wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
That's the thing. I heard in time those companies would've been dissolved too and made to go for the State. Thing is we fought a world war before it could really happen so it didn't get to that phase. I could be wrong. Just what I've heard.

It's Wikipedia. I'd prefer a dictionary which isn't constantly editedbased on an editor's leanings.


Love that for you mate but that's not how Wikipedia works. If you like you can go out and buy a pop up book about Fascism if that would help?

It's just what you wrote in your post is fundamentally wrong so looking at the basics of fascism to actually understand the concept is the best place to start.

Really going to underline this point, not being condescending at all but I really think you should look up what fascism actually is and not just a dictionary definition of the word. I'm afraid life requires context as well. This is what I mean about arguing the semantics. It's not just the word "fascism" it's everything which surrounds that as well.


Thing is the guy that said that about fascism read the book on what the creator of fascism said the ideology is about. He posted portions of it too. So I guess the creator of fascism is incorrect about what it is but a couple internet dudes disagreeing about what it is happen to be correct. Strange logic there but ok.

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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
That's the thing. I heard in time those companies would've been dissolved too and made to go for the State. Thing is we fought a world war before it could really happen so it didn't get to that phase. I could be wrong. Just what I've heard.

It's Wikipedia. I'd prefer a dictionary which isn't constantly editedbased on an editor's leanings.


Love that for you mate but that's not how Wikipedia works. If you like you can go out and buy a pop up book about Fascism if that would help?

It's just what you wrote in your post is fundamentally wrong so looking at the basics of fascism to actually understand the concept is the best place to start.

Really going to underline this point, not being condescending at all but I really think you should look up what fascism actually is and not just a dictionary definition of the word. I'm afraid life requires context as well. This is what I mean about arguing the semantics. It's not just the word "fascism" it's everything which surrounds that as well.


Thing is the guy that said that about fascism read the book on what the creator of fascism said the ideology is about. He posted portions of it too. So I guess the creator of fascism is incorrect about what it is but a couple internet dudes disagreeing about what it is happen to be correct. Strange logic there but ok.


That Wikipedia page has 287 references, including a few dictionary. Wikipedia is a great source of information and when people just dismiss it, it’s just poor form.
There is a lot of work that goes into it, and lots of discussion about how it’s presented and information that may apply.
   
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Apple fox wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
That's the thing. I heard in time those companies would've been dissolved too and made to go for the State. Thing is we fought a world war before it could really happen so it didn't get to that phase. I could be wrong. Just what I've heard.

It's Wikipedia. I'd prefer a dictionary which isn't constantly editedbased on an editor's leanings.


Love that for you mate but that's not how Wikipedia works. If you like you can go out and buy a pop up book about Fascism if that would help?

It's just what you wrote in your post is fundamentally wrong so looking at the basics of fascism to actually understand the concept is the best place to start.

Really going to underline this point, not being condescending at all but I really think you should look up what fascism actually is and not just a dictionary definition of the word. I'm afraid life requires context as well. This is what I mean about arguing the semantics. It's not just the word "fascism" it's everything which surrounds that as well.


Thing is the guy that said that about fascism read the book on what the creator of fascism said the ideology is about. He posted portions of it too. So I guess the creator of fascism is incorrect about what it is but a couple internet dudes disagreeing about what it is happen to be correct. Strange logic there but ok.


That Wikipedia page has 287 references, including a few dictionary. Wikipedia is a great source of information and when people just dismiss it, it’s just poor form.
There is a lot of work that goes into it, and lots of discussion about how it’s presented and information that may apply.



Exactly, wikipedia has it's negatives but as a basic tool for understanding the fundamentals of something, it is ideal.

And speaking of fundamentals, let's go into the basics of critical thinking. A perfect example is "the guy that said that about fascism read the book on what the creator of fascism said" versus a wikipedia article with 200+ references.

When we consider a source, there are a few things you have to also think about. This is known as the wider context. "The guy said" which guy? What is his underlying narrative? what arguments is he trying to bring forward? What is he not saying? What is the bias of the author?
"He read the book on what the creator of fascism said?" which book? What? What do you even do with that information? I can't even properly deal with that. Who has the time? Here's a mega helpful tip, try not to accept the first thing someone says about something. How is it that a guy who I am imagining said "here's why fascism is good actually" should be listened to but a well referenced wikipedia article is a conspiracy? This is the online version of "my mate down the pub said the government is trying to turn all of us into lizard people and it's all a big cover up, swear down."

Consider a well sourced article that has multiple sourced references - in this case a handy dandy wikipedia article (which have you actually looked at and ingested any of the information it presented? Please do the for love of feth).
Why are references important? Well it allows a secondary reader to then look at other information, not just the original author, that way they can make their own informed opinion based on further reading if they want to.

Wikipedia is an excellent base, it sets out most information clearly and then allows you to look for more information if the article didn't fully consider all of it.

Are you arguing with yourself Olthannon ?


No? I quoted my original post because the off topic discussion kind of blew past it. So I quoted it in my follow up there to highlight it again. Was that not obvious?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 14:48:50


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Personally I believe the rogue trader and 2nd edition imperium were absolutely fascists.

The actual Imperium has received much deeper analysis and now it functions more in universe as an authoritarian dysfunctional feudal intergalactic empire.

The Emperor itself was absolutely presented as a Fascist leader with his anti xenos rethoric, the golden future, the secularism, the creation of post-humans, and all the personification.

So personally for me is funnier how people puts the 30k imperium as "better" than the 40k when from our perspective it was basically the ideal fascist mythology as presented.

In 40k of course everything has gone to gak from an in universe perspective. I agree with something someone posted earlier. The actual day 40k imperium (well, actual and from 25 years ago and onward) is more of a Remix of the Best Authoritarian Regimes styles of all humanity history with things like commisars, roman imaginery, xenocide, exterminatus, religious fanatism, Inquisitions, etc...

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

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 Galas wrote:
Personally I believe the rogue trader and 2nd edition imperium were absolutely fascists.

The actual Imperium has received much deeper analysis and now it functions more in universe as an authoritarian dysfunctional feudal intergalactic empire.

The Emperor itself was absolutely presented as a Fascist leader with his anti xenos rethoric, the golden future, the secularism, the creation of post-humans, and all the personification.

So personally for me is funnier how people puts the 30k imperium as "better" than the 40k when from our perspective it was basically the ideal fascist mythology as presented.

In 40k of course everything has gone to gak from an in universe perspective. I agree with something someone posted earlier. The actual day 40k imperium (well, actual and from 25 years ago and onward) is more of a Remix of the Best Authoritarian Regimes styles of all humanity history with things like commisars, roman imaginery, xenocide, exterminatus, religious fanatism, Inquisitions, etc...


That's a fair analysis. I'm not too familiar with Rogue Trader or 2nd ed, so I only have the current rendition to work with.

Tonally, in my opinion, I'm afraid GW has missed the mark nowadays; they "sanitized" the Imperium and made it less outright brutal and even noble at times, which undermines the whole concept of the Imperium being a satire of the worst parts of human history imaginable.
Given those circumstances, it's no surprise that people nowadays miss the point and actually think living in the Imperium would be desirable.
To use a rough crude analogy, GW took 1984 and turned it into Triumph of the Will.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Spoiler:
 Galas wrote:
Personally I believe the rogue trader and 2nd edition imperium were absolutely fascists.

The actual Imperium has received much deeper analysis and now it functions more in universe as an authoritarian dysfunctional feudal intergalactic empire.

The Emperor itself was absolutely presented as a Fascist leader with his anti xenos rethoric, the golden future, the secularism, the creation of post-humans, and all the personification.

So personally for me is funnier how people puts the 30k imperium as "better" than the 40k when from our perspective it was basically the ideal fascist mythology as presented.

In 40k of course everything has gone to gak from an in universe perspective. I agree with something someone posted earlier. The actual day 40k imperium (well, actual and from 25 years ago and onward) is more of a Remix of the Best Authoritarian Regimes styles of all humanity history with things like commisars, roman imaginery, xenocide, exterminatus, religious fanatism, Inquisitions, etc...


That's a fair analysis. I'm not too familiar with Rogue Trader or 2nd ed, so I only have the current rendition to work with.

Tonally, in my opinion, I'm afraid GW has missed the mark nowadays; they "sanitized" the Imperium and made it less outright brutal and even noble at times, which undermines the whole concept of the Imperium being a satire of the worst parts of human history imaginable.
Given those circumstances, it's no surprise that people nowadays miss the point and actually think living in the Imperium would be desirable.
To use a rough crude analogy, GW took 1984 and turned it into Triumph of the Will.


It’s possible a bit of both, they Sanitised the setting a bit as people didn’t understand it all. And that in turn dilutes the setting tone and causes more misunderstanding.
Mix in writers who don’t understand it all ether and it’s a tough issue to keep up with, considering the setting try to mix in a lot as well. And just meh writing at times.
Especially when people looking in have external understanding, it’s not just itself that influence the market. But other media that also plays a part in it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 15:20:16


 
   
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No? I quoted my original post because the off topic discussion kind of blew past it. So I quoted it in my follow up there to highlight it again. Was that not obvious?


not really no, thought it was a bit odd haha
   
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 Olthannon wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
That's the thing. I heard in time those companies would've been dissolved too and made to go for the State. Thing is we fought a world war before it could really happen so it didn't get to that phase. I could be wrong. Just what I've heard.

It's Wikipedia. I'd prefer a dictionary which isn't constantly editedbased on an editor's leanings.


Love that for you mate but that's not how Wikipedia works. If you like you can go out and buy a pop up book about Fascism if that would help?

It's just what you wrote in your post is fundamentally wrong so looking at the basics of fascism to actually understand the concept is the best place to start.

Really going to underline this point, not being condescending at all but I really think you should look up what fascism actually is and not just a dictionary definition of the word. I'm afraid life requires context as well. This is what I mean about arguing the semantics. It's not just the word "fascism" it's everything which surrounds that as well.


Thing is the guy that said that about fascism read the book on what the creator of fascism said the ideology is about. He posted portions of it too. So I guess the creator of fascism is incorrect about what it is but a couple internet dudes disagreeing about what it is happen to be correct. Strange logic there but ok.


That Wikipedia page has 287 references, including a few dictionary. Wikipedia is a great source of information and when people just dismiss it, it’s just poor form.
There is a lot of work that goes into it, and lots of discussion about how it’s presented and information that may apply.



Exactly, wikipedia has it's negatives but as a basic tool for understanding the fundamentals of something, it is ideal.

And speaking of fundamentals, let's go into the basics of critical thinking. A perfect example is "the guy that said that about fascism read the book on what the creator of fascism said" versus a wikipedia article with 200+ references.

When we consider a source, there are a few things you have to also think about. This is known as the wider context. "The guy said" which guy? What is his underlying narrative? what arguments is he trying to bring forward? What is he not saying? What is the bias of the author?
"He read the book on what the creator of fascism said?" which book? What? What do you even do with that information? I can't even properly deal with that. Who has the time? Here's a mega helpful tip, try not to accept the first thing someone says about something. How is it that a guy who I am imagining said "here's why fascism is good actually" should be listened to but a well referenced wikipedia article is a conspiracy? This is the online version of "my mate down the pub said the government is trying to turn all of us into lizard people and it's all a big cover up, swear down."

Consider a well sourced article that has multiple sourced references - in this case a handy dandy wikipedia article (which have you actually looked at and ingested any of the information it presented? Please do the for love of feth).
Why are references important? Well it allows a secondary reader to then look at other information, not just the original author, that way they can make their own informed opinion based on further reading if they want to.

Wikipedia is an excellent base, it sets out most information clearly and then allows you to look for more information if the article didn't fully consider all of it.

Are you arguing with yourself Olthannon ?


No? I quoted my original post because the off topic discussion kind of blew past it. So I quoted it in my follow up there to highlight it again. Was that not obvious?


I'll edit this later but he never said fascism was good or even remotely that but your perspective instantly makes you believe that. He merely said actual fascism is everything being packed into the State and only being within it.

I have no idea how you get a pro fascism comment out of that besides being a total extremist obsessed with fascism but fine.

He never said Wikipedia is a conspiracy and as far as reading it for certain politicized issues you can tell how full of crap and one sided it can be.

I'm not doubting normally many people have political leanings when writing books and they can say something is true when it's not whether it's one set of ideals that don't mesh with reality or another. However I find it rather amazing you think the dude that wrote what fascism is and created it doesn't know what Fascism is. This is akin to a writer not knowing what book he wrote was about....or saying Marx didn't know true Marxism.

As far as conspiracy goes while I imagine some exist I find it rather funny you don't see your own left leaning conspiracies: Hitler in Latin America and still alive, trump-russia collusion despite no conclusive evidence and seeing bigotry under every shadow and tree stump when often it could be explained away with other possible answers which are usually more likely. I'd go into more detail but this thread has already been derailed and looking for a lock.

I'm not saying the Imperium isn't authoritarian. However you guys don't understand what fascism is I think.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 17:22:59


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Apple fox wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
That's the thing. I heard in time those companies would've been dissolved too and made to go for the State. Thing is we fought a world war before it could really happen so it didn't get to that phase. I could be wrong. Just what I've heard.

It's Wikipedia. I'd prefer a dictionary which isn't constantly editedbased on an editor's leanings.


Love that for you mate but that's not how Wikipedia works. If you like you can go out and buy a pop up book about Fascism if that would help?

It's just what you wrote in your post is fundamentally wrong so looking at the basics of fascism to actually understand the concept is the best place to start.

Really going to underline this point, not being condescending at all but I really think you should look up what fascism actually is and not just a dictionary definition of the word. I'm afraid life requires context as well. This is what I mean about arguing the semantics. It's not just the word "fascism" it's everything which surrounds that as well.


Thing is the guy that said that about fascism read the book on what the creator of fascism said the ideology is about. He posted portions of it too. So I guess the creator of fascism is incorrect about what it is but a couple internet dudes disagreeing about what it is happen to be correct. Strange logic there but ok.


That Wikipedia page has 287 references, including a few dictionary. Wikipedia is a great source of information and when people just dismiss it, it’s just poor form.
There is a lot of work that goes into it, and lots of discussion about how it’s presented and information that may apply.


Poor form to dismiss Wikipedia?! Geez! Every schmuck can post something on Wikipedia. You need far better sources to obtain knowledge otherwise people won't take you seriously.
   
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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Imperium hits 9/10 of Umberto Eco's properties of fascism with the force of exterminatus. The only one it doesn't is "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class" and this is because in the Imperium there is no middle class. There is the ruling class and then there is everyone else who are just cogs in the military-industrial machine.

The Imperium is fascist.


That definition of ideal fascism is so abstract that it can be applied to almost any fictional authoritariam regime.

Also Fascism only has full political sense in the context of the deep crisis of european capitalist societies in the interwar period. Since the 2008 crisis some elements of the interwar period have been mimic on the western world, therefore fascism is nowdays again an active political movement.

Fascism is obviously one element of inspiration of the IOM. But "in universe" it dosent make sense to describe it as fascism.

So you can call them fascist... To some degree and if you dont take that definition to literally... Clearly nowdays alt right activist will in many cases fill very confortable living in the IOM.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 17:59:58


 
   
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on the forum. Obviously

 Strg Alt wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
That's the thing. I heard in time those companies would've been dissolved too and made to go for the State. Thing is we fought a world war before it could really happen so it didn't get to that phase. I could be wrong. Just what I've heard.

It's Wikipedia. I'd prefer a dictionary which isn't constantly editedbased on an editor's leanings.


Love that for you mate but that's not how Wikipedia works. If you like you can go out and buy a pop up book about Fascism if that would help?

It's just what you wrote in your post is fundamentally wrong so looking at the basics of fascism to actually understand the concept is the best place to start.

Really going to underline this point, not being condescending at all but I really think you should look up what fascism actually is and not just a dictionary definition of the word. I'm afraid life requires context as well. This is what I mean about arguing the semantics. It's not just the word "fascism" it's everything which surrounds that as well.


Thing is the guy that said that about fascism read the book on what the creator of fascism said the ideology is about. He posted portions of it too. So I guess the creator of fascism is incorrect about what it is but a couple internet dudes disagreeing about what it is happen to be correct. Strange logic there but ok.


That Wikipedia page has 287 references, including a few dictionary. Wikipedia is a great source of information and when people just dismiss it, it’s just poor form.
There is a lot of work that goes into it, and lots of discussion about how it’s presented and information that may apply.


Poor form to dismiss Wikipedia?! Geez! Every schmuck can post something on Wikipedia. You need far better sources to obtain knowledge otherwise people won't take you seriously.

Indeed. I don't know how it is nowadays, but my professors told me not to use wikipedia as a primary source and to dig deeper. I take it my teachers were in poor form?

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Well this conversation has gone into a disgusting road. I'd ask what you define as Alt Right since i've seen suggestions of many people i'd only consider a bit more right wing than me considered as Alt Right or Fascist.

This topic is well and truly done i think.

Not that it's worth anything but if my ideals are viewed as fascist then you're lost i think.

My ideals: Capitalism but breaking up monopolies, Freedom, Personal responsibility, Immigration but limited to what we need regardless of where they're from and what won't destroy our country (maybe a crap ton of migrants during a pandemic and during an economic crisis is a bad idea) and intervention from time to time in foreign affairs but not frequently and mostly just because we have the power to change things so with great power comes great responsibility. Also Race, Sex and Gender while good for identification and preferences imo shouldn't be indicators of Victimhood (as if you aren't just changing who's victim and oppressor) and for that matter aren't indicators of a good person whereas quality of personal character are. Honestly Sex, Race and gender outside of identification and sexual preferences should hold about as much importance as the number, size and color of freckles on someone's ass but some like to obsess over it i guess.

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Um I’m confused? How do I turn of notifs, this conversation sends me emails. I want emails but not for this. Also how did this turn into a argument about alt right facism. I think I missed something. How do I turn off emails for this specific thread?

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 Matoro99 wrote:
Um I’m confused? How do I turn of notifs, this conversation sends me emails. I want emails but not for this. Also how did this turn into a argument about alt right facism. I think I missed something. How do I turn off emails for this specific thread?


My first post was legit about me wanting 40k to be like how it was in Dawn of War 1. Goofy, cartoony and over the top with ridiculous gore added in. Sadly that's gone now.

This is sadly the fate of every thread now that reaches 8-10 pages or more. Re-treading old arguments and arguments of political extremism. Isn't 2021 grand?

For your question i'd say ask a mod. Maybe edit some posts and UnClick "Notify by Email" when reply is posted?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/01 18:31:23


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Well if you want to talk about that, I think warhammer should be bright and colorful in desgin, sort of like the heavy metal style in 2nd edition and RT, but he dark and gory like normal 40K. I edited the dawn of wars game to have them all have that desgin.

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Lets take a real world regime that is near Fascism and Catholic rigorism... both of which are heavy inspiration for the IOM... Franco´s Spain.

Those this mean that the IOM is a sci-fi space version of Franco´s Spain? ... not at all.

Satirical fiction and political science are not the same medium.

The tone of 40K should be as satirical as possible... obviously you cant remain as edgy as in the 80´s, but dont pretend either that the 40K setting is something that can be taken with a full straight face.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 18:43:49


 
   
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Vatsetis wrote:
Lets take a real world regime that is near Fascism and Catholic rigorism... both of which are heavy inspiration for the IOM... Franco´s Spain.

Those this mean that the IOM is a sci-fi space version of Franco´s Spain? ... not at all.

Satirical fiction and political science are not the same medium.

The tone of 40K should be as satirical as possible... obviously you cant remain as edgy as in the 80´s, but dont pretend either that the 40K setting is something that can be taken with a full straight face.


I'm glad to see a common shorthand for "brutal totalitarian regime that habitually commits war crimes and treats its people as expendable resources" has prompted so much discussion on whether the specific term "fascism" is technically accurate.

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