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Space wolve lists tend to have the mobility to outmanuver us (with a cheap unit that can hit our backfield from reserve, lots of jetpack guys, TWC, and dreads). They can use all this to hit us on both flanks at once (whereas we are more a 2 front army, wolves can be on all 3 fronts).

They also have the cheap little cyber wolves to screen us out of their backfield and stop our deep striking.

They toss out just enough quantity of attacks to chip us down over 3 turns so that we dont have alot to work with in the late game as well.

If you dont get a good strong start against wolves your almost guarenteed a loss.

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Tiberias wrote:

Scenario A:
-you use Tanglefoot on the character with Armor of Russ and succeed in preventing his charge.
-the thunderwolves charge your shield squad, the Blade Champ and Trajann both use their 6" heroic intervention. The Blade Champ uses the Stasis Oubliette to make the thunderwolves fight last. The thunderwolves die. (If he positions himself in such an awkward way so that only one of his models barely gets into engagement range with you, so that the Blade Champ can not make his heroic intervention, make sure you are in Dacatarai stance 2 so you can reduce his pile in to 1". Chances are, he'll not get a lot of models into actual combat with you. This is obviously situational and greatly depends on positioning, but it's something to keep in mind)

Scenario B:
-the character with Armor of Russ makes his charge anyway because you rolled low on Tanglefoot and makes one of your units fight last.
-the thunderwolves again charge your shield squad.
-the Blade Champion and Trajann are still going to make their heroic intervention and the Blade Champ still uses the Stasis Oubliette to make the thunderwolves fight last.
-the character with Armor of Russ gets to fight first since he charged and wasn't fight lasted. He'll likely do absolutely nothing between you using transhuman and auspice.
-the two units you have in engagement who were not fight lastet, get to fight next and hit the thunderwolves. Maybe killing them, but surely severely crippling them.
-your unit who was fight lasted gets to fight before the thunderwolves, because fight last cancels ALL instances of fight first and it goes over to alternating activations, starting with the player whose turn it isn't, which is you. (please correct me on that bullet point, but I am pretty sure this is how it works. Which is STUPID btw and I hate that GW went with this fight last/fight first nonsense instead of initiative.....all for sTreAmLinIng the rules, but don't get me started...)


Very reasonable and I'll try to make this happen in one way or the other.
Stupid question though, and this goes back very much to the basics - should I attack one midfield Objective or go for both?
Because if I go for both, he can just pick the side the Oubliette is not on.
If I go for one, he can slip by and easily take 2 obj in the back from me.

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Quick question. With the All seeing Annihilator warlord trait, does it apply to ranged attacks now as well? I would think so, but making sure I am not missing something where ranges attacks are described differently.
   
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Tiberias wrote:

Scenario B:
-the character with Armor of Russ makes his charge anyway because you rolled low on Tanglefoot and makes one of your units fight last.
-the thunderwolves again charge your shield squad.
-the Blade Champion and Trajann are still going to make their heroic intervention and the Blade Champ still uses the Stasis Oubliette to make the thunderwolves fight last.
-the character with Armor of Russ gets to fight first since he charged and wasn't fight lasted. He'll likely do absolutely nothing between you using transhuman and auspice.
-the two units you have in engagement who were not fight lastet, get to fight next and hit the thunderwolves. Maybe killing them, but surely severely crippling them.
-your unit who was fight lasted gets to fight before the thunderwolves, because fight last cancels ALL instances of fight first and it goes over to alternating activations, starting with the player whose turn it isn't, which is you. (please correct me on that bullet point, but I am pretty sure this is how it works. Which is STUPID btw and I hate that GW went with this fight last/fight first nonsense instead of initiative.....all for sTreAmLinIng the rules, but don't get me started...)

Yeah I'm not a fan of Fight First / Fight Last since it's not intuitive, a new player reads "Fights First" and generally thinks that means they get to Fight First without realizing that someone charging them is also a Fight First. I'm fairly certain you're correct on that one since Stasis Oubliette appears to be an exception type rule where it forces that model to fight last after all your units no matter what.

Amadaes wrote:
Quick question. With the All seeing Annihilator warlord trait, does it apply to ranged attacks now as well? I would think so, but making sure I am not missing something where ranges attacks are described differently.

The wording in the trait is "attack" which I believe is a generic term to apply to Shooting and Melee attacks but I could be wrong. Are you running Dreadhost? They always looked like a fun Shield Host.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/26 16:52:39


 
   
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Eihnlazer wrote:Space wolve lists tend to have the mobility to outmanuver us (with a cheap unit that can hit our backfield from reserve, lots of jetpack guys, TWC, and dreads). They can use all this to hit us on both flanks at once (whereas we are more a 2 front army, wolves can be on all 3 fronts).

They also have the cheap little cyber wolves to screen us out of their backfield and stop our deep striking.

They toss out just enough quantity of attacks to chip us down over 3 turns so that we dont have alot to work with in the late game as well.

If you dont get a good strong start against wolves your almost guarenteed a loss.


On that I kinda disagree, especially in Thairnes example where we know it's Shadowkeepers vs Space Wolves. The wolves like to play herohammer, the shadowkeepers counter that so hard it's not even funny. The wolves absolutely have potent melee threats you need to take seriously, but between our great strats, katas and stellar characters (especially when having access to the Stasis Oubliette) we can absolutely deal with that. They are very fast and can threaten more flanks than we can, but if you manage to take out their key characters and damage dealers like thunder wolves, their force starts to fall apart.

Thairne wrote:
Very reasonable and I'll try to make this happen in one way or the other.
Stupid question though, and this goes back very much to the basics - should I attack one midfield Objective or go for both?
Because if I go for both, he can just pick the side the Oubliette is not on.
If I go for one, he can slip by and easily take 2 obj in the back from me.


I don't think anyone can give a cookie cutter answer to that question, since it greatly depens on the mission, deployment and what your opponent decides to do in the first turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amadaes wrote:
Quick question. With the All seeing Annihilator warlord trait, does it apply to ranged attacks now as well? I would think so, but making sure I am not missing something where ranges attacks are described differently.


Yes, it does indeed also work on shooting attacks, which is actually pretty nice. If you go Dreadhost, this is definitely a warlord trait to consider. I personally like it on the Blade Champion alongside the Peerless Warrior trait so he can get exploding 6s to hit in melee and MWs on 6s to wound. But he could also buff a unit of jetbikes with hurricane bolters for example, which become very interesting in Dreadhost particularly since you get +1AP when you shoot something within 9".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 16:59:31


 
   
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Definitely thinking in that direction. This may push me to run Dreadhost for a while. Still putting together lists to see what looks best.
   
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The Bike Captain with HB and All Seeing Annihilator is definately tempting, as it turns the HB into a slightly better AT weapon, just by sheer chance, than the Meltabike. The melta bike can still fail to a single 4+ roll. The HBs have the chance within close range, to on average, 2 MWs in Shooting, and another in Melee. It's very attractive indeed.
   
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 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Tiberias wrote:

Scenario B:
-the character with Armor of Russ makes his charge anyway because you rolled low on Tanglefoot and makes one of your units fight last.
-the thunderwolves again charge your shield squad.
-the Blade Champion and Trajann are still going to make their heroic intervention and the Blade Champ still uses the Stasis Oubliette to make the thunderwolves fight last.
-the character with Armor of Russ gets to fight first since he charged and wasn't fight lasted. He'll likely do absolutely nothing between you using transhuman and auspice.
-the two units you have in engagement who were not fight lastet, get to fight next and hit the thunderwolves. Maybe killing them, but surely severely crippling them.
-your unit who was fight lasted gets to fight before the thunderwolves, because fight last cancels ALL instances of fight first and it goes over to alternating activations, starting with the player whose turn it isn't, which is you. (please correct me on that bullet point, but I am pretty sure this is how it works. Which is STUPID btw and I hate that GW went with this fight last/fight first nonsense instead of initiative.....all for sTreAmLinIng the rules, but don't get me started...)

Yeah I'm not a fan of Fight First / Fight Last since it's not intuitive, a new player reads "Fights First" and generally thinks that means they get to Fight First without realizing that someone charging them is also a Fight First. I'm fairly certain you're correct on that one since Stasis Oubliette appears to be an exception type rule where it forces that model to fight last after all your units no matter what.

Amadaes wrote:
Quick question. With the All seeing Annihilator warlord trait, does it apply to ranged attacks now as well? I would think so, but making sure I am not missing something where ranges attacks are described differently.

The wording in the trait is "attack" which I believe is a generic term to apply to Shooting and Melee attacks but I could be wrong. Are you running Dreadhost? They always looked like a fun Shield Host.


I'm pretty sure the Designer Commentary solves all fight first/last questions. It just looks like this:

There are 3 fight priorities. First, Normal and Last (I'll just call them 1st, 2nd and 3rd priority for simplicity).

According to the Designer Commentary, any source of 1st priority ('Fight First') puts you in 1st priority. These do not stack and make some kind of super-first. Charging gives you a source of 1st priority.

2nd priority is what we would call 'Normal'. It's the prolonged engagement priority. According to the Designer Commentary, I believe that's where it's located, if you have any number of 1st priority sources and you get hit with a 3rd priority ability, you end up here. There is no 'fight last' source that can drag you lower than this if you also have a source of 'fight first'. You cannot use two 1st priority sources to climb out of here after getting hit with a 3rd priority source either. They don't work like hit modifiers. Any number of 1st priority and any number of 3rd priority sources present on a unit, even if it's not the same number of either priority, means you end up here.

3rd priority is what we call the 'fight last' category. You can only end up here if you're at 2nd priority and get hit with a source of 3rd priority (i.e. a fight last ability). You cannot use counter-offensive or interrupt stratagems on units in this category. All units in this category, regardless of the source of the fight last ability affecting them, alternate activations.

So if you charge and then get hit with the Armor of Russ, you fight at 2nd priority (non-charger, prolonged engagement priority), not 3rd priority. If you didn't charge and get hit with the Armor of Russ, you go to 3rd priority.

1st priority fights start with the player whose turn it is and alternate from there.

2nd priority fights start with the player whose turn it is NOT and alternate from there.

3rd priority fights return to starting with the player whose turn it is and alternate from there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Thairne wrote:


Thanks!
I've been mulling over this list for hours now. And it changed to something completely different Well, mostly. You already noticed double Prosecco which is a FAR departure from my earlier argument
Sags seem to be general purpose, but in this case, I'm looking at the Praesidium Shield Wall strat as very valuable. It can take most SWs down to 3s from hitting on 2s if they charge or, even better, down to 4 or even 5.
So Raise, Engage and No Prisoners/Assassinate depending on the number of possible/likely scored VPs. Gotcha.

I'm really surprised to find only 2 HQs in Harpers list. Captain Yeetus is so tempting and flexible that I almost figured him an auto take. In this list though - I could actually see me replacing him with Trajann...
That would give each Squad an escorting character and a lot of added hitting power via Trajann. Also frees up a relic for Castellan's Mark. Hm.
The Voidsmen are an interesting pick. Presumably VERY cheap backfielders?


I am hearing the 2022 missions may not be as Raise friendly as the 2021 missions. They're only on pre-order still so we'll have to see, but for 2021 this is solid.

Harper and some of the others fear giving up 9 points for Assassinate (or even offering that option) I believe. So 2 Characters is a preference for them. Custodes can be just as much about denying scoring through list tailoring.

Voidsmen are super cheap objective holders, absolutely. Even cheaper than Prosecutors.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 18:23:28


 
   
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Audustum wrote:

1st priority fights start with the player whose turn it is and alternate from there.

2nd priority fights start with the player whose turn it is NOT and alternate from there.

3rd priority fights return to starting with the player whose turn it is and alternate from there.


At this point I think it would have been far easier to have an Initiative stat of 1, 2, or 3 and each of the effects described give +1/-1 to a maximum of 3 and minimum of 0.

Voidsmen are super cheap objective holders, absolutely. Even cheaper than Prosecutors.


I don't recall do the Voidsmen require a Rogue Trader in order to field them?
   
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I'm not sure there Audustum. I've asked this question before in the old thread and on other media and the answer then was when you get hit with a fight last ability, you fight in what you called the 3rd category.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 18:37:23


 
   
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Tiberias wrote:
I'm not sure there Audustum. I've asked this question before in the old thread and on other media and the answer then was when you get hit with a fight last ability, you fight in what you called the 3rd category.


That's what some people thought before the Designer's Commentary. For a time in 9th, it actually was debatable and Goonhammer partially led the charge; arguing that there were different kinds of fight last abilities that would affect you differently. The Designer's Commentary was made to fix that. You can find it here:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf

Relevantly:


In practice then, it is best to think of the Fight phase as being
made up of three separate steps, as follows:
1. Players alternate selecting eligible ‘fights first’ units to fight
with, one at a time, starting with the player whose turn is
taking place.
2. Players alternate selecting eligible ‘fights normally’ units to
fight with, one at a time, starting with the player whose turn
is not taking place.
3. Players alternate selecting eligible ‘fights last’ units to fight
with, one at a time, starting with the player whose turn is
taking place



The rare rules then clarify a few things:
1. If a unit has charged it is a ‘fights first’ unit that turn.
2. A unit is a ‘fights first’ unit whether it is under the effect of
just one, or multiple, ‘fight first’ rules.
3. A unit is a ‘fights last’ unit whether it is under the effect of
just one, or multiple, ‘fight last’ rules.
4. If a unit would be both a ‘fights first’ and a ‘fights last’ unit at
the same time, it is instead a ‘fights normally’ unit.
   
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I stand corrected then. Thanks for clearing this up once and for all.

So to correct my example:

If the space wolves character with armor of Russ makes it in with the thunderwolves and makes one of your three units in that example (shield guard, Trajann or Blade Champ)fight last. That basically means that the space wolves character with Armor of Russ gets to fight first.
Then the thunderwolves and your two other custodes units, who weren't fight lasted, fight normally which means you get to pick one unit first since it's not your turn. Then it's alternating.
Then the custodes unit who was fight lasted gets to fight.

Did we get there in the end?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 18:57:12


 
   
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Tiberias wrote:
I stand corrected then. Thanks for clearing this up once and for all.

So to correct my example:

If the space wolves character with armor of Russ makes it in with the thunderwolves and makes one of your three units in that example (shield guard, Trajann or Blade Champ)fight last. That basically means that the space wolves character with Armor of Russ gets to fight first.
Then the thunderwolves and your two other custodes units, who weren't fight lasted, fight normally which means you get to pick one unit first since it's not your turn. Then it's alternating.
Then the custodes unit who was fight lasted gets to fight.

Did we get there in the end?


Haha, we did!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Audustum wrote:

1st priority fights start with the player whose turn it is and alternate from there.

2nd priority fights start with the player whose turn it is NOT and alternate from there.

3rd priority fights return to starting with the player whose turn it is and alternate from there.


At this point I think it would have been far easier to have an Initiative stat of 1, 2, or 3 and each of the effects described give +1/-1 to a maximum of 3 and minimum of 0.

Voidsmen are super cheap objective holders, absolutely. Even cheaper than Prosecutors.


I don't recall do the Voidsmen require a Rogue Trader in order to field them?


I really don't know Voidsmen rules, unfortunately. I'd expect Jack's list to be audited by LVO though (or at least the internet hive mind) so if it does it'll come up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 19:01:11


 
   
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The whole fight sequencing debacle has been a nightmare. I wonder how long it took the guy who designed it to pitch it to the Rules team that wrote it.

"So I fight first, because I charged?"

"Normally yes, but this unit you charged has an ability that cancels that out, and makes you fight last."

"But he has a Fights first ability"

"Sequencing doesn't stack"

"Then why do we need the rules in the first place? Just have "Always fights first Rules, or Makes Others fight Last"

"But I want to make it even more complex, so if Kharne Charges say, a Space Wolves Character with a special relic, we need a referee at the table"

"That sounds awful."

"It'll force them to buy two more books per edition, minimum"

"I'll get to work writing it right now!"
   
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Now in
Gravis Captains once again have more attacks than Custodes Shield Captains.
We just can't have SM being inferior for more than 2 weeks.
They also get "fighting styles" now which just translates to more attacks for specific weapon types.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 13:50:07


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 Thairne wrote:
Now in
Gravis Captains once again have more attacks than Custodes Shield Captains.
We just can't have SM being inferior for more than 2 weeks.
They also get "fighting styles" now which just translates to more attacks for specific weapon types.


Yeah, did you really not see that coming? Anyone wanna challenge the assertion that we are now just really expensive golden Astartes now? With weaker weapons?
   
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They're giving SM fighting styles? Weird time to release that so soon after releasing Katas.
   
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 The Red Hobbit wrote:
They're giving SM fighting styles? Weird time to release that so soon after releasing Katas.


Eh, they're not the same as ours. Just a bit of a name overlap. We are technically Katahs and Fighting Stances while this is just 'Gravis Fighting Style' so it's not quite the same even in naming. It's also locked to just the Captain in Gravis Armor at the moment. While I'm sure it'll spread, there's not really a lot of melee weapons on Gravis models. They're mostly guns only.

Really though, the Gravis Fighting Style is just:

An additional +2A with chainswords (a 1 damage weapon)

An additional +2A with power swords (a 1 damage weapon)

An additional +1A with a power fist (a 2 damage weapon with -1 to Hit)

Gravis Captain is 5A base so he's 8A with a chainsword, 7A with a power sword and 6A with the power first. Not really a huge deal still.

It adds that you can't use these bonuses if you use a Relic which replaces any of these weapons. You might be able to give one of them the Master-Crafted upgrade, but that's looking about it.

Full datasheet is here if you're curious:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/0Cd856c5Bsgn60gu.pdf

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 14:25:24


 
   
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Audustum wrote:
You might be able to give one of them the Master-Crafted upgrade, but that's looking about it.


Baseline "Master Crafted" weapons yes, but not ones that you use the Master Crafted Special Issue Wargear pseudo-relic on.
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
You might be able to give one of them the Master-Crafted upgrade, but that's looking about it.


Baseline "Master Crafted" weapons yes, but not ones that you use the Master Crafted Special Issue Wargear pseudo-relic on.


So that makes it even less effective then. It's just some extra A on some regular weapons.

EDIT: In case anyone is curious, since it was asserted we're just weaker, gold SM, I did a 1v1 with a Shield-Captain (using an axe) and this SM (using a power fist) and it's a slap fight. 3.33 damage per-turn averaged by our Shield-Captain and 3.11 damage averaged by this new SM with his Gravis Style and a power fist.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 14:28:46


 
   
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We do have weaker weapons. We don't have a single stock standard weapon option that does over 2 damage in melee for any of our non-character HQ choices. That boggles my mind. A Primaris HQ in Gravis armor should not be better, in any single aspect, than a Custodes HQ. Also, the 1v1 mathhammer is silly. What if one of them charges and gets fights first? What if one of them is a BA in the Black Rage with a Thunder Hammer? Or Red Thirst?

There are so many stupid variables that make a 1v1 no variable slap fight a impossible scenario.

In the shake out, I don't see this affecting Custodes at all. But I am miffed like a sibling watching my little brother get the exact same toy for Christmas that I just got. Even though he's been getting toys all week, and I only just got mine.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
In the shake out, I don't see this affecting Custodes at all. But I am miffed like a sibling watching my little brother get the exact same toy for Christmas that I just got. Even though he's been getting toys all week, and I only just got mine.


This is exactly my feeling.
Also, this Gravis Fighting Style, as said, will spread. It will also include a "Phobos Fighting Style" and a "Tacticus Fighting Style" at some point.
Just to drive home that they not only need doctrines, chapter tactics, better weapons, more bolter shots and attacks on the charge BUT they can do what we do as well.

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Just GW jerking off Space Marines once again. It's kinda annoying, since this is for sure going to spread in new Marine releases, but at least right now our characters are better.

This just reinforces my opinion that from a design philosophy standpoint, they should have given ALL our infantry +1 wound instead of making everything cheaper. It would have been a better contrast to Space Marines, but oh well....you can't have everything and the new codex has surprisingly good internal balance so I'm happy for that.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
We do have weaker weapons. We don't have a single stock standard weapon option that does over 2 damage in melee for any of our non-character HQ choices. That boggles my mind. A Primaris HQ in Gravis armor should not be better, in any single aspect, than a Custodes HQ. Also, the 1v1 mathhammer is silly. What if one of them charges and gets fights first? What if one of them is a BA in the Black Rage with a Thunder Hammer? Or Red Thirst?

There are so many stupid variables that make a 1v1 no variable slap fight a impossible scenario.

In the shake out, I don't see this affecting Custodes at all. But I am miffed like a sibling watching my little brother get the exact same toy for Christmas that I just got. Even though he's been getting toys all week, and I only just got mine.


Fezzik, check the data sheet. He can't have a thunder hammer. He can only have a chainsword, a power sword or a power fist. He also has no source of damage above 2 either, just like us. Indeed, two of his weapons are just 1 damage and the third is 2 damage with a -1 to Hit.

While the 1v1 was a silly diversion, it does show that the questions of 'what about a charge or a red thirst' doesn't matter because it's a wet noodle fight: neither has any reliable chance to kill the other any time soon.

It's not really infringing on our design space except that 'fighting style' and 'fighting stance' sound kind of similar. They don't really operate the same mechanically.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 15:03:07


 
   
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yeah, by the tightest of margins.
Its ridiculous. They keep and keep stealing and encroaching on custodes identity with every thing they put out.
As if the blow of Mining Tools surpassing Custodes gear wasnt just 2 weeks back.

It will be fun times when Codex 2.0 drops and they're not only encroaching anymore, but surpassing.
Mark my words.

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As a Black Templar that dude has 10!!! attacks at strength 6, - 4 ap in assault doctrine with the sword.... and im sure you can give him the +1 damage upgrade for the weapon, because it does not replace the weapon.

Dark Angel Deathwing can hit and wound infantry at 2+..... and you can give him -1 damage.

This just sucks... we don't get fearless or inbuild transhuman like Deathwing (no leadership 11 is not the same as fearless), we don't even get one - damage relic or wt outside the special shield host wt, no Bolter Dicipline for our infantry.

There is no point in lore why we shouldn't have those traits above as well, hell they should just make the point costs higher but this feels just like fancy, spoilt golden Space Marines.


This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2022/01/27 15:49:58


 
   
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Until our non character HQs can do more than 2 damage per weapon, I don't see how anyone can rationally justify any argument that our HQs are "fine". Yeah, the new shield rules are great, and the new Katas can be really effective in the perfect scenario, but in the shake out, 100 games from now, are we really more better off now than we were pre-9th codex? D3 was swingy, but it could induce fear and hesitation. Now with -1D being given out like candy, our Captains are essentially 1 damage Chaplains.
   
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INFERIOR fancy golden space marines.
Space marines can do pretty much anything custodes can do now and better at that (hyperbole, but the hyperbole is shrinking more and more)

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 Thairne wrote:
INFERIOR fancy golden space marines.
Space marines can do pretty much anything custodes can do now and better at that (hyperbole, but the hyperbole is shrinking more and more)


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Until our non character HQs can do more than 2 damage per weapon, I don't see how anyone can rationally justify any argument that our HQs are "fine". Yeah, the new shield rules are great, and the new Katas can be really effective in the perfect scenario, but in the shake out, 100 games from now, are we really more better off now than we were pre-9th codex? D3 was swingy, but it could induce fear and hesitation. Now with -1D being given out like candy, our Captains are essentially 1 damage Chaplains.


Super hyperbole guys. Both John Lennon and Jack Harpster are taking Custodes to LVO, not Space Marines and that's before our CA point drops. There's a reason for this. We are really good.

Torgroll wrote:
As a Black Templar that dude has 9!!! attacks at strength 6 with the sword.... and im sure you can give him the +1 damage upgrade for the weapon, because it does not replace the weapon.
Dark Angel Deathwing can hit and wound infantry at 2+..... and you can give him -1 damage.

This just sucks... we don't get fearless or inbuild transhuman like Deathwing (no leadership 11 is not the same as fearless), we don't even get one - damage relic or wt outside the special shield host wt, no Bolter Dicipline for our infantry.

There is no point in lore why we shouldn't have those traits above as well, hell they should just make the point costs higher but this feels just like fancy, spoilt golden Space Marines.


Leadership 11 is arguably better than Fearless. We don't run blobs big enough where we are really in danger of morale checks, even with some debuffs (which most armies never use in a competitive setting). Leadership 11 actually helps us resist a lot of psyker abilities whereas Fearless would not.

Inbuilt Transhuman on terminators would've been nice. It's a mark but it's not going to cripple us.

Lore is the reason we don't get Bolter Discipline. GW has flat out said that Space Marines get Bolter Discipline because they drill and train with bolters specifically, as opposed to other guns, so much. Custodes are not so bolter obsessed.
   
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Audustum this is just wrong, Custodes train with their weapons all their life and guess what, they have a bolter inbuild in their standard variants so where is the difference especially if you have more skills and a longer life to learn more than the normal Space Marine?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 16:00:01


 
   
 
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