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Reactions need to be increased in quantity when playing bigger games. Your usual allotment of points is decisive in a 1k game but it´s watered down when armies grow significantly larger.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Reactions need to be increased in quantity when playing bigger games. Your usual allotment of points is decisive in a 1k game but it´s watered down when armies grow significantly larger.

The baseline is designed around 2000-3000 points. Significantly above that, like 5k+, requires modifications to have an enjoyable game anyway but additional reaction points would go a pretty long way towards keeping it fun.

This is definitely a case of 'be careful what you wish for'
Or in other words - get ready to buy a Mechanicum army because we get to double the reactions we can take just by having our warlord stand out of the way.

 SirDonlad wrote:
This is definitely a case of 'be careful what you wish for'
Or in other words - get ready to buy a Mechanicum army because we get to double the reactions we can take just by having our warlord stand out of the way.

That and they should probably introduce some very simple over arching limitations, even people who like reactions don't love the immersion breaking of one units reacting 3 times in their turn, interceptor as a baseline should have downsides if its not to be limited at all. This is the stuff that matter too for scaling both sin normal games and in larger 2 v 2 or mega battles. Handing out "more" without any limitations has real ramifications for everyone.

Like they already need to faq core reactions like overwatch before even getting into the weeds.

 Crablezworth wrote:
That and they should probably introduce some very simple over arching limitations, even people who like reactions don't love the immersion breaking of one units reacting 3 times in their turn

Interesting. I've not seen these complaints with regard to "immersion" being broken thanks to reactions, rather I've seen that people are praising the break up of turns.

interceptor as a baseline should have downsides if its not to be limited at all.

Good news! There is a limitation on Interceptor. Unless a unit has an Augury Scanner, only one unit may use the Interceptor reaction. Problem solved!

This is the stuff that matter too for scaling both sin normal games and in larger 2 v 2 or mega battles. Handing out "more" without any limitations has real ramifications for everyone.

My group has only played 2v2s (with the odd 2v3 where one player gets an extra army rather than extra points to prevent fewer reactions for one team) and we've had no issues whatsoever except for our first game when we didn't realise Advanced Reactions were once per game rather than turn. After that, nada.
As for the removal of limitations on all reactions, it's entirely dedicated to a single WLT per army and at least for the Iron Warriors, it's not the best choice. Maybe you should y'know, play the game and get informed.

 Gert wrote:
Maybe you should y'know, play the game and get informed.

Please, pleas keep being you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:


Good news! There is a limitation on Interceptor. Unless a unit has an Augury Scanner, only one unit may use the Interceptor reaction. Problem solved! .

And what limits augery scanners? Are YOU sure you played 2.0?

To be fair the ability to spam interceptor isn't a bad thing considering reserves are so much more powerful now.

I think the kneejerk reaction to it may be be because of siege tyrants in particular (coupled with a certain WLT) but the game is still young and
Playstyles take a bit of time to adapt to new rule sets. I don't think people are taking full advantage of pinning yet for one thing. Rotor cannons and quad mortars are CHEAP and the ability to pin people T1 is very much available.

Out of interest how much have you been playing? I've been playing very regularly since the 1st phase playtest rules leaked and we're still finding a lot of things that aren't readily apparent from just reading the rules off the page and analysing stuff. Ie dreadclaws aren't quite as useless as they would seem!

Don't get me wrong the FAQ is going to have to be huge. Another thing that cropped up last week is that sweeping advance for single and multiple combats is different (single combats the loser escapes on a tie, multiple combats loser gets caught on a tie) so there's yet a fair bit to iron out too in that regard. Overall the more my gaming group is playing the more we're enjoying it! It's definitely really fun

 Crablezworth wrote:
And what limits augery scanners? Are YOU sure you played 2.0?

Points. You could theoretically take Augury Scanners on most Infantry units in your army but unless your opponent is investing heavily in Deepstriking units then it's going to be huge points sink for almost no benefit.

I only keep saying "play the game" because you keep making assertions that are easily disproven with experience in playing the game. I've not denied that some reactions are better than others (*shakes fist at Blood Angels*) but they aren't nearly as bad as you keep making them out to be.
Contemptors and Leviathans seemed like insanely good units initially but now we've adapted to them, they're still good but not nearly as awful as we first thought because we played the game and learned how to counter them.

Right? I give them to all of my squads cuz that's how'd they would be kitted during the crusade. I could give 2 gaks about extra reactions.

There are zero restrictions on how many you can take other than the pts you pay for them in the first place.

What's the over/under for fsctions/whatever getting flat out ignore(x) USR/ROW/ETC completely?

OP

- The tank is dead. Overpriced. No damage. No survivability in a game where everything else has rending and does more damage.

- Bolters are even more irrelevant than before. Why am I being asked to roll 40 dice to have the two wounds I inflict either be negated by FNP or chip a wound off a veteran?

- Artillery is dead. Why should I pay a premium for AP4 weapons?

- Alpha strike precision massed deep strike that you can assault from is dumb.

- Reactions heavily favour Death Star mentality especially for shooting units.

- 2 wound elite infantry breaks the game if you don’t have a damage system. Why should I waste gambling autocannons when I could use a lascannon and bypass his feel no pain. Why take a power axe when you could just take a power fist? Never mind who falls on the wrong side of the 2 wound divide.

Bobug wrote:
To be fair the ability to spam interceptor isn't a bad thing considering reserves are so much more powerful now.

I think the kneejerk reaction to it may be be because of siege tyrants in particular (coupled with a certain WLT) but the game is still young and
Playstyles take a bit of time to adapt to new rule sets. I don't think people are taking full advantage of pinning yet for one thing. Rotor cannons and quad mortars are CHEAP and the ability to pin people T1 is very much available.

Out of interest how much have you been playing? I've been playing very regularly since the 1st phase playtest rules leaked and we're still finding a lot of things that aren't readily apparent from just reading the rules off the page and analysing stuff. Ie dreadclaws aren't quite as useless as they would seem!

Don't get me wrong the FAQ is going to have to be huge. Another thing that cropped up last week is that sweeping advance for single and multiple combats is different (single combats the loser escapes on a tie, multiple combats loser gets caught on a tie) so there's yet a fair bit to iron out too in that regard. Overall the more my gaming group is playing the more we're enjoying it! It's definitely really fun

Two different outcomes on a tie sounds like a printing error.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
OP

- The tank is dead. Overpriced. No damage. No survivability in a game where everything else has rending and does more damage.

- Bolters are even more irrelevant than before. Why am I being asked to roll 40 dice to have the two wounds I inflict either be negated by FNP or chip a wound off a veteran?

- Artillery is dead. Why should I pay a premium for AP4 weapons?

- Alpha strike precision massed deep strike that you can assault from is dumb.

- Reactions heavily favour Death Star mentality especially for shooting units.

- 2 wound elite infantry breaks the game if you don’t have a damage system. Why should I waste gambling autocannons when I could use a lascannon and bypass his feel no pain. Why take a power axe when you could just take a power fist? Never mind who falls on the wrong side of the 2 wound divide.

Overpriced tank:
I finally opened for the first time the core rulebook yesterday and the loyalist book in order to write my upcoming unit entries on index cards. Oh boy was I surprised when the Spartan was 485 pts. and the Kratos 470 pts in the end.
Meanwhile the Leviathan remained quite cheap with 290 pts. though I barely upgraded it.

Inefficient artillery:
I was also surprised when the large blast from the Kratos battlecannon only featured AP4. The battlecannon in comparison from the LRBT had AP3 way back in 3rd. Guess I will have to tweak the Kratos cannon to AP3 as everything else would make no sense.

The rest:
Yeah it boils down to show some restraint during list writing. Just seeing large terminator squads and dreadnoughts plowing through the battlefield will get old very quickly.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
OP

- The tank is dead. Overpriced. No damage. No survivability in a game where everything else has rending and does more damage.

- Bolters are even more irrelevant than before. Why am I being asked to roll 40 dice to have the two wounds I inflict either be negated by FNP or chip a wound off a veteran?

- Artillery is dead. Why should I pay a premium for AP4 weapons?

- Alpha strike precision massed deep strike that you can assault from is dumb.

- Reactions heavily favour Death Star mentality especially for shooting units.

- 2 wound elite infantry breaks the game if you don’t have a damage system. Why should I waste gambling autocannons when I could use a lascannon and bypass his feel no pain. Why take a power axe when you could just take a power fist? Never mind who falls on the wrong side of the 2 wound divide.

Exalted af, agreed.

I love the Kratos model but see no point in actually taking it for games. Infantry and dreads are the way to go. I'm only running my spartan until I have the models to replace it. No idea when that will be as I'm waiting on tyrant siege termies, IW dread, autocannons, etc to come in stock for the rest of my army. For now my 2500 is just the AoD box and Perty. 20 tacs with bolters, 10 lascannon, 10 missile launchers, las/autocannon dread, terms with lightning claws.

How are you spending 470 on a kratos?

I do agree on Spartans a bit. They're really pricey for what they do. I've found land raiders are still pretty decent for speeding terminators about and providing support but I am playing white scars with them so they're faassstt and I can do the once a game gtfo move.

Also, artillery isn't there to wipe units out. It's to pin things. It's also still pretty cost effective, it just isn't broken like it was in 1.00. medusas making their points back in 1 shot isn't exactly a fun play experience for your opponent. I'm glad it's dead.

Quad mortars are cheap as hell and with shellshock have a really good chance of pinning a unit down. Even barebones they only need to ping off a few tactical marines and they've made their points back.

Also, im interested in how you/your opponents are scoring if everyone is just spamming terminators and dreadnaughts? Can't help but feel this is all kneejerk reactions from reading the rules and not actually playing the game.

Bobug wrote:
How are you spending 470 on a kratos?

I do agree on Spartans a bit. They're really pricey for what they do. I've found land raiders are still pretty decent for speeding terminators about and providing support but I am playing white scars with them so they're faassstt and I can do the once a game gtfo move.

Also, artillery isn't there to wipe units out. It's to pin things. It's also still pretty cost effective, it just isn't broken like it was in 1.00. medusas making their points back in 1 shot isn't exactly a fun play experience for your opponent. I'm glad it's dead.

Quad mortars are cheap as hell and with shellshock have a really good chance of pinning a unit down. Even barebones they only need to ping off a few tactical marines and they've made their points back.

Also, im interested in how you/your opponents are scoring if everyone is just spamming terminators and dreadnaughts? Can't help but feel this is all kneejerk reactions from reading the rules and not actually playing the game.

IH Kratos:
Flare shield 50 pts, Armatus Necrotechnika 50 pts and various minor upgrades.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
OP

- The tank is dead. Overpriced. No damage. No survivability in a game where everything else has rending and does more damage.

- Bolters are even more irrelevant than before. Why am I being asked to roll 40 dice to have the two wounds I inflict either be negated by FNP or chip a wound off a veteran?

- Artillery is dead. Why should I pay a premium for AP4 weapons?

- Alpha strike precision massed deep strike that you can assault from is dumb.

- Reactions heavily favour Death Star mentality especially for shooting units.

- 2 wound elite infantry breaks the game if you don’t have a damage system. Why should I waste gambling autocannons when I could use a lascannon and bypass his feel no pain. Why take a power axe when you could just take a power fist? Never mind who falls on the wrong side of the 2 wound divide.

Exalted af, agreed.

Same energy:

Bobug wrote:
Also, im interested in how you/your opponents are scoring if everyone is just spamming terminators and dreadnaughts? Can't help but feel this is all kneejerk reactions from reading the rules and not actually playing the game.

Shhhh. Don't say that. You might encourage debate based on actual experience.

Also, artillery isn't there to wipe units out. It's to pin things. It's also still pretty cost effective, it just isn't broken like it was in 1.00. medusas making their points back in 1 shot isn't exactly a fun play experience for your opponent. I'm glad it's dead.

The guy in our group with 3 Medusas was mad. Everyone else was absolutely fine with it because as you said, having chunks of your army deleted every turn isn't fun.

 Gert wrote:

Bobug wrote:
Also, im interested in how you/your opponents are scoring if everyone is just spamming terminators and dreadnaughts? Can't help but feel this is all kneejerk reactions from reading the rules and not actually playing the game.

Shhhh. Don't say that. You might encourage debate based on actual experience.

Also, artillery isn't there to wipe units out. It's to pin things. It's also still pretty cost effective, it just isn't broken like it was in 1.00. medusas making their points back in 1 shot isn't exactly a fun play experience for your opponent. I'm glad it's dead.

The guy in our group with 3 Medusas was mad. Everyone else was absolutely fine with it because as you said, having chunks of your army deleted every turn isn't fun.

The only artillery that was really overpowered in old Heresy was the Quad guns and especially with phosphex prior to the FAQ. Mainly due to sheer volume of wounds and the fact that artillery units were very difficult to shift.

That’s not true of basilisks, Medusa and vindicators. They were very light vehicles that might be able to get one of two shots off that could kill a few guys. Before finding themselves swiftly killed by outflanking, deepstriking, planes, etc etc. Without phosphex shells they were very inaccurate.

So all it does is reduce the power of those guns even more than they already were. Also, it’s wrong to apply this logic to super heavy battle tanks like the Typhon and Fellblade. They are meant to be deleting chunks of your line.

Plus the real cheese like feel no pain and artificer sergeants hasn’t gone anywhere and even gotten more prevalent.

It’s really strange because so much of this new plastic heresy range is these new tanks which are so unworkable in the game.

Agree to disagree with regards to Medusas because in my experience they have been nothing but an issue. I do find it funny that you think Large Blasts with a maximum scatter distance of 8" are inaccurate. Unless every single opponent you fight is taking only tiny units or is stringing them along the board, you're going to hit a good chunk of models with each blast, especially in the early game.

I also never said units like the Typhon or Fellblade shouldn't have that kind of firepower so don't put words in my mouth.

As for FNP and AA, it's the same as it was IMO. The majority of my group's lists haven't changed (with the exception of the Tsons player who is now able to play games higher than 2k without borrowing stuff).

 Gert wrote:
Agree to disagree with regards to Medusas because in my experience they have been nothing but an issue. I do find it funny that you think Large Blasts with a maximum scatter distance of 8" are inaccurate. Unless every single opponent you fight is taking only tiny units or is stringing them along the board, you're going to hit a good chunk of models with each blast, especially in the early game.

I also never said units like the Typhon or Fellblade shouldn't have that kind of firepower so don't put words in my mouth.

As for FNP and AA, it's the same as it was IMO. The majority of my group's lists haven't changed (with the exception of the Tsons player who is now able to play games higher than 2k without borrowing stuff).

Why should a 200-250 point tank killing 3-5 marines a turn be overpowered? Especially because you’ve got cover, invulnerable saves and your own shooting to deal with any stray pie plate. If your infantry column is walking across open ground, they should be taking casualties to shooting.

The max scatter was 12 out of line of sight. Assuming you have a nuncio vox it can be eight or if you’re parked dangerously close with the Vindicators.

Quite easily, you shoot a wall of space marines and the shell goes off the board or ahead of the line or onto that chunk of area terrain models can’t pass. Even then, unless your opponent has pushed his guys shoulder to shoulder you never get more than a handful of guys. Which can easily be achieved by five lascannons. Believe there are far more dangerous things you could put into an army than vindicators and basilisks. I’ve never seen either of those units make their points back, even when they got some good shooting in.

Because the feel no pain is more plentiful and going onto 2 wound infantry. So it’s more obnoxious than before.

I don’t see why it’s reasonable to be paying crazy points to make enemy units roll a pin check, which they’ll probably pass, when those points could just buy the weapons to kill them instead.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Why should a 200-250 point tank killing 3-5 marines a turn be overpowered?

The max scatter was 12 out of line of sight. Assuming you have a nuncio vox it can be eight or if you’re parked dangerously close with the Vindicators.

In HH 1 Medusas were 155 each, not 200, and certainly not 250. The gun was S10, AP2, Ordnance 1, Barrage, with a Large Blast and 36" range. The only reason the Medusa was bad was if you exclusively shot units not in LoS and rolled high every single time. The average 2d6 roll is 7, which means Medusa blasts are scattering 3" for units within LoS. No armour saves or FNP and it cracks most vehicles with ease.

Quite easily, you shoot a wall of space marines and the shell goes off the board or ahead of the line or onto that chunk of area terrain models can’t pass. Even then, unless your opponent has pushed his guys shoulder to shoulder you never get more than a handful of guys. Which can easily be achieved by five lascannons. Believe there are far more dangerous things you could put into an army than vindicators and basilisks. I’ve never seen either of those units make their points back, even when they got some good shooting in.

Again, Basilisks are bad nobody is denying that. Medusas on the other hand were very very good, which is specifically what I have been talking about. Yes, there are other units you can also take but paying 465 points for 3 very good artillery pieces is really nice. I haven't even begun to talk about the Militia artillery which was so much harder to kill for peanuts points cost.

Because the feel no pain is more plentiful and going onto 2 wound infantry. So it’s more obnoxious than before.

Only certain elite (as in rank, not force org slot) units have 2 Wounds so unless your opponent is exclusively running Pride of the Legion or another variant then it is not nearly as much of an issue.
As a side note, the fact that these elite units have 2 wounds now makes them actually worth using. Terminators are so much better now they don't just die from one Lasgun shot.

Just to add on actually, both the Basilisk and Medusa ignore FNP and cause Instant Death because they are double nearly all Marine units toughness values. Your complaint about 2 Wounds and FNP is utter bogus.

New Mechanicum infodrop...
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/09/robot-death-rays-and-striding-knights-heres-what-a-mechanicum-army-offers-in-the-horus-heresy/


Bad news for Imperial Knight lists

For every two Troops choices – which are Armigers, by the way – a Lord of War may be taken.

 Gert wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

.

In HH 1 Medusas were 155 each, not 200, and certainly not 250. The gun was S10, AP2, Ordnance 1, Barrage, with a Large Blast and 36" range. The only reason the Medusa was bad was if you exclusively shot units not in LoS and rolled high every single time. The average 2d6 roll is 7, which means Medusa blasts are scattering 3" for units within LoS. No armour saves or FNP and it cracks most vehicles with ease.

in.

Again, Basilisks are bad nobody is denying that. Medusas on the other hand were very very good, which is specifically what I have been talking about. Yes, there are other units you can also take but paying 465 points for 3 very good artillery pieces is really nice. I haven't even begun to talk about the Militia artillery which was so much harder to kill for peanuts points cost.

Because the feel no pain is more plentiful and going onto 2 wound infantry. So it’s more obnoxious than before.

Only certain elite (as in rank, not force org slot) units have 2 Wounds so unless your opponent is exclusively running Pride of the Legion or another variant then it is not nearly as much of an issue.
As a side note, the fact that these elite units have 2 wounds now makes them actually worth using. Terminators are so much better now they don't just die from one Lasgun shot.

Just to add on actually, both the Basilisk and Medusa ignore FNP and cause Instant Death because they are double nearly all Marine units toughness values. Your complaint about 2 Wounds and FNP is utter bogus.

Which is almost as much an entire squad of infantry. Meaning to make its points back it has to kill its own weight in bodies. Also, picking the most powerful artillery gun as proof that all blast weapons across the board needed to be neutered whilst also boosting infantry?

Well given they can’t punch through armour it means they’re unable to kill infantry. If I shoot a thousand points of tanks at power armour space marines, that shouldn’t result in a handful of guys being killed.

Feel no pain and artificer armour is a separate issue because they make already durable infantry tough to kill with supposedly anti infantry and small arms fire. As well as invalidating a ton of melee weapons. Which leaves you with just taking a lascannon squad or your own terminators and melee infantry. It’s just an auto include that makes your units arbitrarily better than if you invested those points elsewhere. If your assault squad gets bracketed by a 50 bolt shells then you should get punished for being in that situation; not get a cheap boost that invalidates what limited damage you actually do. It’s not unfair that Volkite culverins or Sicaran, or vindicators can kill infantry out in the open.

Because even 1 wound infantry is obnoxious with feel no pain and artificer. Never mind doubling the wounds for those elite infantry that always form the actual core of a Horus Heresy army. They’re far from rare and one troop choice for every thousand points is not a troop heavy army as people seem to think.

Personally I don’t think you should get feel no pain unless you’re stationary and out of close combat.

Worth pointing out at this point that the ubiquitous flare shield drops the strength of blast type attacks by 2 so the medusa was actually S8 against anything with one; and a spartan needed a direct hit and a 6 for armour pen to glance it.

Also; the phosphex 'crawling fire' rule was what made them obnoxious because you'd be moving the fleshbane AP2 template 2" for the better every placement

The scatter dice being effectively a 5+ for an optimum hit position doesn't help


Edit: not liking how the whole 'disciplines' thing is looking

Pick one of seven different High Techno-Arcana,

The techno-arcana choice for a magos had six options (archimandrite, malagra, myrmidax, ordinator, lachrimallus and makrotek) but cybernetica is now one of those disciplines..

 Gert wrote:
Agree to disagree with regards to Medusas because in my experience they have been nothing but an issue. I do find it funny that you think Large Blasts with a maximum scatter distance of 8" are inaccurate. Unless every single opponent you fight is taking only tiny units or is stringing them along the board, you're going to hit a good chunk of models with each blast, especially in the early game.

I also never said units like the Typhon or Fellblade shouldn't have that kind of firepower so don't put words in my mouth.

As for FNP and AA, it's the same as it was IMO. The majority of my group's lists haven't changed (with the exception of the Tsons player who is now able to play games higher than 2k without borrowing stuff).

Not sure about Typhons, but Fellblades are fine. Besides the changes to the Demolisher Cannons (which is more of a "change" than a "nerf", as it's better against some targets, but worse against others), everything got better. Accelerator Cannon gained +1 strength and Exoshock(4), lascannon arrays gained Sunder, and Laser Destroyers gained Exoshock(6) and literally doubled their shots. As a Fellblade owner, I have no complaints, other than the lack of an explanation of just how an Ordnance weapon with Armourbane is supposed to roll for Armour Penetration.

Bobug wrote:

Also, im interested in how you/your opponents are scoring if everyone is just spamming terminators and dreadnaughts? Can't help but feel this is all kneejerk reactions from reading the rules and not actually playing the game.

Fury of the Ancients gives Dreads line. Pride of the Legion gives terminators Line. Legion Standards can give retinue terminators (like Justaerin or command squads) line, legion heralds come with legion standards, etc.

It is extremely easy to get a fully scoring list of dreads and/or terminators.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
OP

- The tank is dead. Overpriced. No damage. No survivability in a game where everything else has rending and does more damage.

- Bolters are even more irrelevant than before. Why am I being asked to roll 40 dice to have the two wounds I inflict either be negated by FNP or chip a wound off a veteran?

- Artillery is dead. Why should I pay a premium for AP4 weapons?

- Alpha strike precision massed deep strike that you can assault from is dumb.

- Reactions heavily favour Death Star mentality especially for shooting units.

- 2 wound elite infantry breaks the game if you don’t have a damage system. Why should I waste gambling autocannons when I could use a lascannon and bypass his feel no pain. Why take a power axe when you could just take a power fist? Never mind who falls on the wrong side of the 2 wound divide.

Exalted af, agreed.

Same energy:

Spoiler:

Realizing it's op's thread, congrats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Why should a 200-250 point tank killing 3-5 marines a turn be overpowered?

The max scatter was 12 out of line of sight. Assuming you have a nuncio vox it can be eight or if you’re parked dangerously close with the Vindicators.

In HH 1 Medusas were 155 each, not 200, and certainly not 250. The gun was S10, AP2, Ordnance 1, Barrage, with a Large Blast and 36" range. The only reason the Medusa was bad was if you exclusively shot units not in LoS and rolled high every single time. The average 2d6 roll is 7, which means Medusa blasts are scattering 3" for units within LoS. No armour saves or FNP and it cracks most vehicles with ease.

Quite easily, you shoot a wall of space marines and the shell goes off the board or ahead of the line or onto that chunk of area terrain models can’t pass. Even then, unless your opponent has pushed his guys shoulder to shoulder you never get more than a handful of guys. Which can easily be achieved by five lascannons. Believe there are far more dangerous things you could put into an army than vindicators and basilisks. I’ve never seen either of those units make their points back, even when they got some good shooting in.

Again, Basilisks are bad nobody is denying that. Medusas on the other hand were very very good, which is specifically what I have been talking about. Yes, there are other units you can also take but paying 465 points for 3 very good artillery pieces is really nice. I haven't even begun to talk about the Militia artillery which was so much harder to kill for peanuts points cost.

Because the feel no pain is more plentiful and going onto 2 wound infantry. So it’s more obnoxious than before.

Only certain elite (as in rank, not force org slot) units have 2 Wounds so unless your opponent is exclusively running Pride of the Legion or another variant then it is not nearly as much of an issue.
As a side note, the fact that these elite units have 2 wounds now makes them actually worth using. Terminators are so much better now they don't just die from one Lasgun shot.

Just to add on actually, both the Basilisk and Medusa ignore FNP and cause Instant Death because they are double nearly all Marine units toughness values. Your complaint about 2 Wounds and FNP is utter bogus.

Medusas are 10 armour on 75% of their facings, it takes very little do destroy one at range. Why today, my medusa was killed by a deep striking terminator unit firing combi-plasma, they die to a wet fart. It got 2 shots off before doing so btw, neither of which hit. Look, it's very simple, infantry in the open, power armour or not, aren't going to do well with very powerful explosive or kinetic weaponry. I don't think being in power armour would help much being hit by a sabot or cannister shell even from a modern tank. The majority of the meta is built on 2+ and 3+ armour, most ap values are meaninguless if they're not 3 2 or 1 outside of a few edge case factions that aren't as common as marines in 30k. The medusa works exactly as it should, it seems like this entire 2nd edition is designed to by someone who just doesn't like the idea of any kind of high efficacy shooting, which is why it's worse than 1.0, it's not a combined arms wargame anymore, it's mary sue dreadnought hour featuring termiantors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rihgu wrote:

Bobug wrote:

Also, im interested in how you/your opponents are scoring if everyone is just spamming terminators and dreadnaughts? Can't help but feel this is all kneejerk reactions from reading the rules and not actually playing the game.

Fury of the Ancients gives Dreads line. Pride of the Legion gives terminators Line. Legion Standards can give retinue terminators (like Justaerin or command squads) line, legion heralds come with legion standards, etc.

It is extremely easy to get a fully scoring list of dreads and/or terminators.

Even outside of having scoring or access to it, you get silly units like tyrant siege terminators, silly in that they're quickly underline for your opponents the less than fun aspects of some reactions for some units, if your army comprises heavily of them, that's a lof 10 missiles coming back at you reactions, enough to maybe make you look at 1.0 again.

Funnily enough, my experience with my opponent's Tyrant Siege Terminators is they're useless. In 4 turns, with reactions etc, they did 1 point of damage to 1 of 4 dreadnoughts I had.

On planet bowling ball (we had just played a 20 minute Zone Mortalis game and had time to burn so we re-wracked on a flat table w/o ZM rules to see how Tyrants would play out. Turns out, not well.)

 Crablezworth wrote:
it's not a combined arms wargame anymore, it's mary sue dreadnought hour featuring termiantors.

What are you, 12?
I think I'm done here. If you're resorting to that kind of thing for your arguments there's no point in continuing. Enjoy your game that hasn't been updated since 2019.

 Gert wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
it's not a combined arms wargame anymore, it's mary sue dreadnought hour featuring termiantors.

What are you, 12?
I think I'm done here. If you're resorting to that kind of thing for your arguments there's no point in continuing. Enjoy your game that hasn't been updated since 2019.

Gert you've been done in this thread 3 times yet you keep coming back to it and to pretend the energy you bring every time is is somehow roses and sunshine is laughable at best fren.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rihgu wrote:
Funnily enough, my experience with my opponent's Tyrant Siege Terminators is they're useless. In 4 turns, with reactions etc, they did 1 point of damage to 1 of 4 dreadnoughts I had.

On planet bowling ball (we had just played a 20 minute Zone Mortalis game and had time to burn so we re-wracked on a flat table w/o ZM rules to see how Tyrants would play out. Turns out, not well.)

"to one of the 4 dreadnought I had" I feel like we may have figured this one out