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I'm working on the very last points of my Lysander Wing list. I'll post my "core" stuff right here. Please note that this is for tournament so I am (at least a little) concerned with composition. What follows is the automatic, then I will post my other thoughts on what to field. I'm interested in addressing my weaknesses, which I have found so far to be assault by init 5, str 5 guys (Raptors, blood angels etc...), and well... that's about it at the moment. Also looking for advice on how much is "too much".

Lysander's Phlanx
Captain Lysander (170 pts)     410
 - Omega Squad - 1 Terminator Sergeant, 4 Terminators (200)
 2x Assault Cannons (40)

Squad Gamma      280
   - Terminator Sergeant, 5 Terminators (240)
         2x Assault Cannons (40)

Squad Epsilon       280
  - Terminator Sergeant, 5 Terminators (240)
       2x Assault Cannons (40)

Squad Alpha      147
Veteran Sergeant Leto w/Terminator Honors (15), P. Fist (15). Teleport Homer (5)
  - 7 Space Marine Scouts, 6x Bolters, 1x Missile Launcher

Squad Beta      147
Veteran Sergeant Orion w/Terminator Honors (15), P. Fist (15), Teleport Homer (5), Melta Bombs (5)
 - 7 Space Marine Scouts, 6x Bolters, 1x Missile Launcher

Landspeeder Iota      80
  - w/Heavy Bolter & Assault Cannon

Landspeeder Delta      80
 - W/Heavy Bolter & Assault Cannon

This gives me 18 Terminators, 8 Assault Cannons, 16 Scouts, also I'm at 1424 points.

I have considered, and have painted, the following.
Another Terminator Squad, 6 man strong, w/Assault Cannons (280)
Another Landspeeder (80)
A Codicier or Epistolary w/Fear the Darkness and or Fury of the Ancients
A Chaplain
A 8 Man Dev squad w/Tank Hunter

Here are my thoughts so far.
Generally, when the terminators land, they take out an entire flank, for this reason I find that the last terminator squad to fire, generally has few targets. In addition. 18 Terminators is easier to swollow, and I may have a few more opponents not completely tank my comp score if I take 18 instead of 24. On the other hand, battle points are more important then comp points, and at the higher end games, it's all Biel-tan, Iron Warriors, Demonbomb anyway, so is comp that big a deal?

I fielded the psyker for awhile, but when some armies are fearless, and even marines are ATSKNF, it makes FoD next to useless. I realize it kills Tau/eldar/other races... but I have so much AP 4, that I really don't need help with them.

The chaplain, if he leads a unit can be very helpful in a counter-assault situation, able to re-roll all those to hit dice.

Here are my "package" thoughts so far for the list

1.    Termy Squad (280), Landspeeder (80). This leaves me at 1784.

   A.    I could lose a scout and a terminator and through in a Reclusiarch to lead another squad. 1846 total here.

   B.    Instead of the chaplain, buy Tank-hunter for 3 squads of terminators.

2. 8 Man tank Hunting Missile Launcher Dev Squad (224), Epistolary W/FoD, FoA, Termy Command Squad... that's about 1850.

3. Termy Squad w/Attached Codicier w/FoD.

I really wish that we had more different kinds of armies in my area so that I could play against a lot of opponents and see what my weaknesses are and what I need to field.

I'm tempted away from the Dev squad, becuase the theory of the army is to hide, then suddenly attack, and the dev's will take the brunt of shooting for at least one turn, perhaps two, meaning they may not be there by the time the terminators come down.

I appreciate any sudgestions. Thanks.

I'm guessing the tournament is at 1850 points, which gives you 506 points left to spend. If you go for a Chaplain, I'd say make him a Reclusiarch without much more wargear than his Terminator suit (110) then upgrade the command Terminators to Furious Charge (+21 - there's a loophole that lets you upgrade Lysander when you do this) If you felt it would be worthwhile, you could give the Chaplain Lightning Claws for +1 A and the reroll to wound, or give both the Chaplain and Command Sergeant a second power weapon.

I can't really help you on the comp side of things. Too little experience. However, I understand it usually rewards higher troop counts and punishes duplicate units. If you are worried about comp, you could spend your last 375 points on a pair of drop pod squads. 190 points for eight guys in a pod with a special weapon and powerfist. That would bring up your Troops count, though you'd have five points to cut somewhere. I can't say I'm mad keen about heavy support Devastators. With Lysander their drawback of having to deploy first is lessened since so much of your stuff starts off table, a safer bet would probably just be to get 3x6 las/plas tactical squads. A higher body count and a little more flexibility in picking targets than the Devastators, as well as helping your comp. Another idea to help against comp: if they give a penalty for duplicate units, you can buy a two-point auspex for one of your elite sergeants, then have one of you scout sergeants with bolt pistol and power fist and the other one with close combat weapon and power fist.

If you decide not to care about comp, I'd almost suggest forgetting about all the above ideas and finding another thirty points somewhere in the list - maybe cut the power fists from the scout squads? - then reduce the size of each of your existing Terminator squads to five strong. This would let you purchase a modest (same equipment as a sergeant) Terminator Captain with a four-man retinue carrying two assault cannons and another five terminators with two assault cannons, allowing Lysander to deliver a truly disgusting ammount of firepower. Just be sure to be very nice to your opponent, let them take back the odd mistaken move, etc., and generally be an excellent guy because you don't want your sportsmanship to get nuked along with your comp. I hear people have weird reactions to forty rending shots suddenly appearing out of nowhere.

The best addition you can make to your list is a Fury/Fear Libby with 4 man Termie Command Squad w/ 2 asscans - and give them all Furious Charge. Weighs in around 365 pts.

BTW - dump 1 termie from Lysander's command squad - the min is 4 and 5 is not any stronger.

That leaves you about 100 pts to spend.

The chaplain is actually a fairly bad idea. Why? because it will prompt you to get your units into close combat. And they're not that good at it. (What? Termies not good in close combat? Yup) In my Lysander-wing army, I tend to suffer 2/3 of all my casualties in assault... and I inflict so much more damage during the shooting phase.

You could add a third landspeeder... (even though some may cry foul at 11 asscans!) - or you could trim your scout squads and add a third.

Second the fear/fury lib w/retinue--I take one with my deathwing and it makes me very happy.

That gets you to 1789/1850. I'd add another scout squad for max deployment opportunities, and/or replace fear with veil if you're that unhappy with fear (often a popular choice).

The other 40 points I was talking about comes from dropping 1 termie from Lysander's squad.

If you prefer wine over beer, this may be a good way to spend your last few points. Nothing like a wedge of cheese to complement tinned rum roast.

Lysander 170
4 Command Terminators ? 2 assault cannon 200

Epistolary ? fury, fear, terminator armour 154
4 Command Terminators, 2 assault cannons 200

5 Terminators ? Sergeant with auspex, 2 Assault Cannons 242

5 Terminators ? Sergeant with bionics, 2 Assault Cannons 245

5 Terminators ? 2 Assault Cannons 240

5 Scouts ? bolt guns, missile launcher 75

6 Scouts ? bolt guns, heavy bolter 83

Tornado ? assault cannon 80

Tornado ? assault cannon 80

Tornado ? assault cannon 80

Some Questions:

The Librarian, who do you find he is best against, and in a non-drop pod situation, where have you found he is the most useful. Basically... how do you use him, and what do you do with him.

Also, I realize that 5 man squads are a better point wise way to get assault cannons, but it also means they can kill 3 terminators in a squad to get it below 1/2 and make it not count as a scoring unit. do you think having 5 5 man squads is better then having 4 6 man squads?

Is this for Adepticon perchance?

Ummm.... uggg.... sor... ma..ummm....

*yes*

hehe, yep Flatlander, called me out on it! I'm still working out the kinks but it's what I'm planning on bringing, but this is it, probably for both the Gladiator and the normal one.

Have any sudgestions on Comp/points?

As the judge of the Adepticon Championships and assistant judge for the Gladiator, I can't comment on what would be "best" or suggest "changes". That wouldn't be fair to the other 119 players now would it

Just review the points breakdowns for the Championships.

Battle 105
Sports 30
Theme/Comp 18
Paint 30
Quiz 10

And the Sportsman ship and Theme/Comp are scored literally from the following "smiley face", "sad face", or "neutral face". And it's chosen by your oppents BEFORE the game and not by judges.

Keep in mind, especially at the Championships, you're playing against the enemy, the terrain and the mission. Our missions are not cut-and-pasted out of the rulesbook with random "levels" (like the Grand Tournaments) of difficulty. Every table is playing the same mission at the same time.

There's a little something for everybody. Maybe even the Lysander Wing will have to think about what to do to win

Cheers.

ROFL, I'm sure that I will get my little fanny pattled. Any given sunday after all. I'm a good sportsman I think, and fun to play. My list is a little over the top, no argument, but then again, I'm not trying to fit in 15 assault cannons ;-) I'm still trying to decide if I want the last terminator squad, but the real problem... I just don't have anything to replace it with to be honest. *shrug* At least I can go toe to toe with any arch-nemisis (Iron Warrior) players and feel like I have a fighting chance! Fist vs. Warriors, man to man, just like it should be!

Yea, I noticed last year that the number of missions that have infiltration on them is very small, which cause problems for my list, but that should make the deepstrike more bang or bust.

Actually, a cool special rule for a mission is one that allows no deepstrike, of any kind, even if you always deepstrike. Drop Pods could be forced to automatically set up, and so would I, maybe lictors as well, no hidden movement or anything, set up, duke it out. It would be pretty interesting actually.

I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to it, see you there. If nothing else when you see the big yellow army, come say hello. My name is Shawn. See you at Adepticon!

Say hi when you check-in for the Gladiator at 11am Friday I'll be behind the desk ripping your lists apart and throwing the laptop at the wall.

I bet you will be having a time ;-). With god knows how many army lists to make sure are accurate!

Sounds good! I'll introduce myself then, what's your real name, or should I just ask for Flatlanderboss?

Posted By Artorious on 02/22/2006 8:50 AM
Some Questions:

The Librarian, who do you find he is best against, and in a non-drop pod situation, where have you found he is the most useful. Basically... how do you use him, and what do you do with him.

Also, I realize that 5 man squads are a better point wise way to get assault cannons, but it also means they can kill 3 terminators in a squad to get it below 1/2 and make it not count as a scoring unit. do you think having 5 5 man squads is better then having 4 6 man squads?

(confession) I'm operating out in theoryhammerland here. From your experience with the Librarian, I don't know if I would even reccomend him - given the high proportion of armies you're likely to face with decent leadership. But then, he really only costs another 69 points as opposed to a Terminator Captain with a swagger stick, and could really make a mess of Tau and IG. If you've been finding you take a lot of return fire from long-ranged heavy weapons on the drop, he could be a worthwhile investment. The flip side is you could get a whole other squad of scouts/a whirlwind/similar for the same cost.

As for the five-man squads, (also a meteor from theoryhammerland) my sense is that with Terminator squads dropping in one-at-a-time, the extra body is probably helpful as they face a good chance of facing much return fire. However, Lysander lets you get all your rump roast at once. Given that, you can safely assume you should be able to release a great concentration of shooting on one part of the enemy line, and therefore reducing return fire. Assault cannon are also (perhaps unfortunately) the best thing teleporting terminators can have. Overall, the enemy only has to kill one more Terminator to reduce four six-man squad to half-strength as opposed to five five-man squads, but one less Terminator to wipe them out. The extra two assault cannon cost an extra eighty points + character. (minimum 165) So the tradeoff is it will be a little easier for your opponent to get points off your boys, but it will also be easier for your boys to get points off your opponent. With Lysander, I'd say that's a decent trade.

Just to give you an idea of what I did with the Lysander-wing when the codex first came out:

Lysander - 170
4 Command Termies, 2 Asscans - 200

Epistolary, Term, Bionics, Fear/Fury, FC - 162
4 Command Termies, 2 Asscans, FC - 212

3x
6 Termies, 2 Asscans - 280 (840)

2x
6 Scouts, 4 sniper, ML, vet w/ sniper & homer & auspex - 133 (266)

1850 pts, 28 termies, 10 assault cannons

Of course, my idea was a yellow DeathWing - so as many terminators as possible. As to in-game performance, Lysander is a chump. Once he gets the guys to the battlefield, his only use is the Ld10. That, and I'll often let him catch a couple wounds from shooting in order to keep the squad scoring.
The Librarian is always the on-field champ. He does so much! Nearly always via Fury of the Ancients. I've considered dropping Fear of the Darkness in favor of either Veil or Might, but it is so good during those times that you can use it. Against big creatures and IC's, his Force weapon ruins many of their days.
The bionics and auspex' are in the list merely because I ended up with 9 pts left over.

The strength of this style of list lies in:
1. Shooting
2. Ability to segment your opponent
3. Denying opponent a target until you're ready
4. Appears all at once
5. Low risk Deepstrike (with 24" range of weapons, you can saely deepstrike outside of teleport homers and not have to place your unit too close to enemy units)

Getting stuck in assault is the worst thing you can do - except the Librarian, but even then, he's better during shooting phase.

How do you deploy your librarian? Do you deploy him with the rest of your army, or sort of alone? Is he normally in teleport homer range, or do you try and get him closer to the enemy.

Most of the people I play tend to seem to want to stay away from him if possible. Also, if I'm fighting marines and they break, they just auto rally and either shoot me, or move forward and assault me if possible.

How do you make him such a power house? I'm not saying mine hasn't been useful, but in general I have not been that impressed with him in 50% of the games.

Well, the Lysander Teleport Assault rules state that if he is kept back to teleport, then all terminators in the army must. So my Librarian teleports with the rest.
Typically, I keep him in teleport homer range with the rest of my army (occasionally dropping him behind lines vs low Ld troops to get them to run). The Librarian isn't usually about getting him to the enemy - if the enemy wants to stop his Fury, then the enmy has to come to him. The ability to sit back and dump d3 S5 hits into anything you want across a line is incredible. And they pin! Without wounding! It doesn't get a lot better than that. Then when they finally do come to you, then the Librarian has a Force weapon at the ready to ruin any IC's day.