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If this is a common sense question i apologize in advance but........I agree that the Profile on the GK Falchion gets +1 attack.. I however have a question as my brain has turned into mush. I have set up a unit of Purifiers to be my Alpha strike unit... I gave them Fal's and was wondering the exact amount of dice each one gets on the charge... Is it 2 base +1 Falchion +1 charge= 4 total on charge OR is it 2 base +1 falchion +1 for 2 ccw(Falchion and stormbolter) and +1 charge= 5 total on charge? I'm not looking to get a Hornets nest stirred up here, have a game tonight and don't want to lose out or cheat anyone on number of attacks. Thanks to any help or fast answers out there..

The point is still contested, I think, but having originally been of the opinion that the falchions would just give +1 attack, I'm now fairly convinced they in fact give +2 (+1 for being Falchions and +1 for being 2 ccws). I'd say it'd be fair to ask what your opponent thinks (a gentleman will of course immediately give you +2 attacks), but if he says only +1 then I'd ask him to allow you to use them as 'counts as halberds' instead (or just run with only the +1 if that's your preferred option to having halberds)

thank you very much, And i am sticking a librarian with them to give them quicksilver, bumping them to I10 so thats alot of powerweapon attacks swinging first. I will plan on going with the 4 and just ask the fellas at the shop their thoughts and go with majority.

The poll here was split, but the posts seem to lean towards +2.

kirsanth wrote:The poll here was split, but the posts seem to lean towards +2.

Check out that massive thread for the entire debate.

22 pages long and there's still no clear-cut answer.

You'll have to discuss it with your opponent before the game. But, if both you and your opponent are stubborn WAAC guys, be prepared for a long fight and the game never actually being played.

looked everywhere for the post and couldn't find it.. im possibly blind. The guys i play with are excellent people, it is a small group of us but everyone is a fair and fun person to play against.

a Pair of Falchions would give the model

base attacks, +2 for Falchions, +1 for charging.


if you are still in the +1 Falchion camp it would only be a total of +2 when charging.


Frankly, i think the Warding Stave is better for the Libby. a 2++ is hard to beat with Librarians who are more of a support unit you want alive rather then killing things.

If your undecided... confer with your opponent, and until you ARE decided, or there is an FAQ, play Falcions as granting +1.5 attacks each.

so a 10 man units would gaine additional attacks from falcions, rather than 10 or 20.

Round up/down accoring to taste.

Its the only way i can think of doing it without having a big argument or 4+'ing it. Which is another option.

The whole debate boiled down to whether a pair of falchions are two close combat or just a single one. If someone argues the point of "a pair" not being "two" during a game, just let him have it and never play him again afterwards.

And, to point something out: the +2A "side" proved, conclusively, that you have 2 CCW

The +1A side proferred no evidence, no rules argument, against it. The only argument was "it is too overpowered", despite yet more evidence to the contrary.

No, the argument is that no 'pair', 'counts as two CCWs', something ever other singular piece of wargear which was clearly intended to count as a bonus CCW has. See Sniktrots pair of weapons they make special mention that he counts as having a bonus CCW so do Shardnets etc.
Gauntlet of Ultramar, flachions etc, lack text saying they count as two CCWs and none of them have been addressed in an FAQ.

It needs to be addressed so people can point to it and say yes GW considers a 'pair' as 'counts as two ccw'.
So on so forth

Artemo wrote: (a gentleman will of course immediately give you +2 attacks)

I see it the other way, when a rule is contested a gentleman should take the rule that's less advantageous. That is a gentlemanly player won't ask for the +2 until it's spelled out.

Agree with the Kid with the full tang.

I didn't say a gentleman would ask for two attacks, I said that if asked a gentleman would immediately allow two attacks. There's a difference.

ChrisCP wrote:No, the argument is that no 'pair', 'counts as two CCWs', something ever other singular piece of wargear which was clearly intended to count as a bonus CCW has. See Sniktrots pair of weapons they make special mention that he counts as having a bonus CCW so do Shardnets etc.
Gauntlet of Ultramar, flachions etc, lack text saying they count as two CCWs and none of them have been addressed in an FAQ.

It needs to be addressed so people can point to it and say yes GW considers a 'pair' as 'counts as two ccw'.
So on so forth

Pair of (NEmesis Force Weapons) == Pair of (FOrce weapons + Bonus) == Pair of (Power weapons + Bonus) == Pair of CCW (+ Bonus)

They do not need to say "counts as 2 CCW" because they *are two CCW* in every way shape and form.

It is NOT a singular piece of wargear. The entry is for a Falchion, the bonus is for wielding a pair and you BUY a pair of them. At NO POINT do you ever buy a singular weapon.

Your argument here, as there, is flawed

Morks Teeth arn't CCWs by default, they needed clarification and definition.

the Gauntlets of Ultramar(and Falchions) in contrast are CCWs by default. we are told they are a pair of Power Fists. 2 PFs gives a +1A bonus according to the BGB.

Falchions are Nemisis weapons which are Force Weapons which are Power weapons which are single handed CCWs. you buy a pair so +1A for having 2 CCWs.

Which was my point - Chris is asking for something that is NOT required. No need for "counts as..." when you explicitly *are* something!

yup

Even though I play Grey Knights I would say that Falchions only give +1 attack and thats it, the reason is even though it BRB" Has the same effects of a power weapon" it is 1. undefined as to wether they count as a 2 handed Force weapon or single, since they can only be bought in pairs it would also be legitamite to assume the possiblity of them being counted as a 2 handed force weapon ,and 2. Check the BRB FAQ and it will state on page 2 that
"Q: What weapons count as single-handed weapons for the purposes of gaining additional attacks in close combat? (p37)
A: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in their rules."
Seeing as it is not specifdically defnined as a one handed weapon it only get the +1 attack bonus thats it.
And if you argue that its defined as a one handed weapon then why is there a 22 page thread and why are we arguing.
Thier is also the possibility that that are one weapon since they are only ever describe as plural being and you can never ever buy just one falchion.

GE - see the other thread. You're not reading ALL of the FAQ

ALL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS are single handed, unless specifically stated to be 2 handed

ALL of them

Now see both mine and GT posts which prove you have 2 of them

Why is there a 22 page thread? Because some people are incapable of reading and following rules, and others are under the delusional belief that +2A is somehow overpowered, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Thats how.

Fine ill let it go for now but I bet you when the faq comes out it will only grant 1 attack and nothing for 2 ccw.

You'll "let it go" meaning you dont have a rules argument to back up your stance?

Given its SM, I bet its +2 attacks total, as otherwise NOONE in their right mind would take the expensive downgrade that is a falchion.

ChrisCP wrote:No, the argument is that no 'pair', 'counts as two CCWs', something ever other singular piece of wargear which was clearly intended to count as a bonus CCW has. See Sniktrots pair of weapons they make special mention that he counts as having a bonus CCW so do Shardnets etc.
Gauntlet of Ultramar, flachions etc, lack text saying they count as two CCWs and none of them have been addressed in an FAQ.

It needs to be addressed so people can point to it and say yes GW considers a 'pair' as 'counts as two ccw'.
So on so forth

A "pair" of weapons most certainly is defined as having 2 of them. Would you argue that any of the following do not get +1A for having 2 of the same special CCW?

See Furioso Dreadnought in BA Codex. Pg. 85. "Replace both blood fists with a pair of blood talons (the built-in weapons are retrained)......free"
See Kayvaan Shrike in SM Codex. Pg. 92 "The Raven's Talons: These are a pair of master-crafted lightning claws. They also bestow the Rending special rule on Shrike's close combat attacks."
See Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squad in Black Templar Codex. Pg. 34. "Weapons: Sword Brethren Assault Terminators will all have either a pair of lightning claws or a thunder hammer and storm shield. Any combination of these two types may be included in the squad".

The flachions are much closest to the Blood Talons.

In the BA Codex in the Vehicle Armory section defines "Blood Talon" (not a pair). Then in the army section you purchase a "pair" of them. You're not allowed to buy just one. They have an additional bonus ability only activated when wielding 2 of these, and that is the extra attacks.

In the GK codex, the armory section defines Nemesis Flachions (not a pair). Then the fluff talks about them always being used in pairs (but we all know fluff does not = rules). In the army section, when you replace your NF Sword, you're not buying "Nemesis Force Flachions" as they are called in the armory, but "A pair of Nemesis Force Flachions". You're only allowed to buy them in pairs because that's their fluff, and their bonus ability is only activated when you have a pair of them (just like the Talons)

If it's FAQ'd to only 1 attack, I'll make sure to remind my BA friend that he only gets 2 base (+1 for assault charges) dice to start is "infinite" dice rolls with.

Same with nosferatu1001.

Talking about "overpowered", IMO it's only fair to give falchions A+2 with storm bolter, as halberd, a two-handed CCW that gets a A+1 already can strike with I+2.

And just so I know, when did storm bolter count as CCW/ pistol?

the Dh codex gave GKs "True Grit"


True Grit made the models with it count their Bolters or Stormbolters as a CCW in CC, but they could never claim the attack bonus for charging(so GKs had 2 attacks all the time)

models in Terminator armor didn't benifit from True Grit.

The argument was based on whether the "+1 attack" written in the codex is a "bonus" or a recitation of the normal rule that you get an extra attack for having 2 CCW.

The "2 attacks" crowd argued that "+1 attack" was a bonus, while the "1 attack" crowd argued that it was reciting the general rule.

That said, why take falchions when there are better weapons? +2 I is better for a take-all-comers list than +2 attacks.

the +1A in the Falchion rules isn't the bonus for 2 CCWs because it doesn't say that it is.

this is a permissive rules set.

what the first thread being locked by endless bickering wasn't enough?

Because a unit with Falchions with an attached Quicksilvering Librarian is I 10.

As regards the argument, I now lean to +2, but I've absolutely no intention of wasting time arguing the toss if someone else prefers the +1 interpretation because both are actually reasonable interpretations as things stand (yes, the evidence favours +2, I'd now say, but you just have to look at the poll in the other thread to see about half of people prefer the other definition). I'd dice for it or, were my opponent vehement, just go with the +1 until the FAQ

the thread was actually quite civil for all the contention there was.

up until the very end where some people started getting upset with their arguments not holding any water.