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The 5e tactic for using terminators has been storm shields. In 3e and 4e, terminators were a serious liability and hard to use without getting slaughtered (in 2e they were unstoppable killing machines, but 2e was so different from subsequent editions it might as well be parcheesi).

So without storm shields how do you keep paladins alive?

Stormravens and Land Raiders seem really, really expensive and your model count will be so low that nothing in your army will stay alive.

Teleporting seems great, but once they arrive what then?

I'm thinking keeping them in cc will help a ton since they have better invulnerables in cc.

Any other thoughts?

They are 2+ 5++ with a FNP option(why one wouldnt take that I dont know), not to mention 2 wounds. Im sure they will be rather tough to take out

In short I have no idea. The 4++ save from the sword can be good. As can stealth with psyker 3++.

You can use drago to soak up damadge.

The problem with the paladins is that they die to S8.

You can also run a paladin as a singel unit for the 12" large blast.

You can of course have so mutch he needs to use his S8 weaponds on that he can't focus on the paladins.

This is a good thread topic.

You have wisely noticed that paladins fall down and die horrifically in many situations, but in other situations they can be impressively resilient.

If you just want to get them into CC, then you've already mentioned the way to do that, but its even more expensive, and the rest of your list has to built to counter the special weapons/anti-tank weapons that will take them out.

There is a codex (well, two) already that does "assault terminators". They do it way better than grey knights, and you never want to try and make a copy of another codex's strong point. Where paladins get freakishly survivable, is when you post up midfield and shoot, while walking towards the enemy. Stay a respectful distance away from plasma and melta, escort a librarian with shrouding, possibly take an apothecary and two psycannons.

It is painfully expensive, but it will just refuse to lose shooting effectiveness, and non-dedicated close combat units can't even dare to enter within 12" of them.

Your 'storm shield' becomes a 3+ cover save, the 2+ armor, FNP and 5 ablative wounds. Just keep putting out 8 psycannon shots, 4-6 storm bolter shots, holocaust and a smite/warp rift/vortex. Use a screen to protect you from strength 8 CC units, prioritize your opponents ap2 shooting and just take over table-center.

Fielding paladins and then giving a chimera wall the bum's rush with them will lead to a lot of tears. Fielding paladins and then getting charged by assault terminators will result in even more tears. But two wound, uniquely upgraded, 2+ armor 3+ cover shooty units are next to impossible to dislodge with firepower with or without FNP.

That is what I would do with them even before I would field them in a land raider or storm raven.

I don't know that you keep paladins from dieing. In some games they will be unstoppable, and in other games they were be very stoppable. With two wounds, a 2+ save, and potential FNP, torrents of fire will have little effect. S8 instant kills them, vindicators will majorly disrupt them.

Run a list with them that will make your opponent choose the more sever target to hit with his high strength guns- landraiders, storm ravens, transports, dreadnoughts, or dreadknights will be more likely targets for higher strength shots, as a single shot yield a KP/dead unit as opposed to a single model from a squad. Make your opponent prioritize his targets by giving him better ones, and maybe your paladins will live longer.

They are 2+ 5++ with a FNP option(why one wouldnt take that I dont know), not to mention 2 wounds. Im sure they will be rather tough to take out

Things that ignore armor and FNP and can ID at the same time:
Powerfists/Chainfists/Thunderhammers/Force weapon activation
Monstrous creatures (Some)
Lascannons
Dark/Bright Lances
Meltas, multimeltas, fusion blasters, and the equivalents
Demolishers/Vindicators
Warp lance
Vortex of doom
C`tan attacks (This one also ignores your inv save.)

Things that ignore FNP and armor but WON'T ID, but are likely to inflict more than one wound during a phase:
Plasma anything.
Rending weapons that actually rend for once in their <CENSORED> lives
Smite
Power weapons/Relic blades
The rest of the monstrous creatures

These are just off the top of my head, these are also absurdly common at the moment. Paladins are scary...when you're imagining them hitting your squad of ten tactical marines that weren't even equipped with a PF.

As to running them...I'd field them like I would field a squad of lightning claw terminators (I -WOULDN'T but that's not helpful)...meaning, I am pretty much locked in to either praying for coversaves as I move them up the board, or LOS blocking wierdness with vehicles (Probably requiring a land raider) ...Or stuffing them in a land raider to get across the board faster and lock in my ability to get the charge. Yes, it's expensive. It also tends to work. Problem with Paladins is the same problem as with most LC terminators, shooty terminators aimed at CC, vanilla assault marines: You can't put them on the board like you can with a TH/SS, go "Herpderp!" charge them into most any unit in the game, and expect to at least hold your own.

You need to aim them at things that cannot ID them at minimum, and to get the most out of them you need to be able to aim them at squads without much capability to cut through your 2+ save and thus, FNP. This limits your effective target list, and on top of it forces you to do SOMETHING to ensure that they are in the right place at the right time (Land raider/Stormraven) to charge in, and not also at the place and time where the enemy has his "O RLY?" squad. Like a unit of TH/SS terminators. Or that trio of ravagers sitting right there waiting for that last kabalite warrior to get chopped down.

You could deep strike them, I suppose...but what would you really accomplish with it? In LOS and range you get some decent anti infantry fire, and you might even take out a vehicle with psycannons!....And then you get shot a lot and charged. Out of LOS, you will still likely get shot a lot, but maybe not charged (Depending on mobility of your opponent)..... I just can't see what is supposed to be so great about them. When I finally get money and start building GKs...I think I will stick with the regular GKT. Spend the extra points on more bodies.

Sorry the options are kinda blah for keeping them alive, but that's kinda universal with terminator models, even with TH/SS they pretty much need a transport.

Ooh I know! Buy stuff that's actually good instead!

I agree with what shep said about making them a shooty unit from hell but instead of setting up shop in the middle I prefer a flanking manuevere which will further limit the number of options they have to take them out as compared to the middle of the board where most of your opponents army can attack them.

Well here's my problem marbo steps out of the shadow and blows up 7 pallies or they stay away as pycannons are 24 in range so unfortanetaly shep there going to have to close to shoot and staying from melta is increasingly diffcult.

Yea I didnt know for sure if they could be ID or not when I posted that. I was only able to briefly flip through the codex the other day so I couldnt remember for sure.

Now that I know they can be, Im thinking a boyz mob + pk nob will still be the way to deal with them. Infact due to ID/wound allocation wouldnt they be even worse off them a normal terminator to the PK ID-ing them?

They are too expensive to be used competitively in a TAC environment.

I do like the idea of attaching a librarian and using them as a 2+/3+C shooting unit, it would bring some hair pulling frustration out for the people shooting at it, most likely.

But for the 525 points for even 4 Paladins, apothecary, one psycannon and a librarian with shrouding? I think I would rather have, at minimum, the two 8 man/4 Psycannon+Psybolt upgraded Purgation squads I could buy with the same points, and have the option of totally NLOS shooting.

MikeMcSomething wrote:They are too expensive to be used competitively in a TAC environment.

This is what is starting to get me unendingly frustrated with GW's products. Without fail, every model I want to buy and paint or think looks good, ends up being a liability on the table. Maybe I'm cursed because the models I happen to like, aren't the ones GW wants to make over powered. It seems to me that there are just far better options for GK's than any terminator armored model without a stormshield in the GK army (which leaves you with Draigo). But here I am with two boxes of terminators raring to go. I have done this before, and all that ends up happening is I get frustrated with 40k and quit it for two years. I've spent too much money on this stuff these days to have this happen again, but I also know I will be pissed beyond recognition if my $100 worth of models gets me tabled every game.

Okay rant over... these suggestions are actually quite helpful. Seems something like teleporting them behind chimeras will be a great tactic. I like the idea of flanking with them, keeping them on the opposite side of the table from your opponent (which could also make them heavy points denial as well). Having a librarian smokescreen them seems like the best option. Use them as a shrouded shooting platform until you can get close enough for a charge.

Edit:
Actually looks like the librarian suggestion has some problems.

1) Paladins seem only worth taking if you have Draigo. Draigo seems like he will make a group of Paladins totally own if he's with them due to his storm shield.
2) Librarians are 150 points for basically the same stat line as a paladin. I know they can do all kinds of wicked shananigans, but with only two wounds, and a crappy save (unless you spend even more points and get them a staff or something), librarians seem like they'll be a heavy liability.

So field your terminators, you don't technically HAVE to field them as paladins if you don't like..though honestly situations where GKTs excel the Paladins will excel moreso.. Just don't use them like TH/SS terminators.

Your criteria for selecting a CC target:
Doesn't have a 3++ or better
Doesn't have an I value higher than you + Halberd (If you take a librarian with quicksilver in your list, your I10 pretty much opens this bulletpoint to "Anything")
Doesn't have a power weapon for more than half your models in the squad (General rule, adjust depending.)...non ID-rending attacks I would place underneath power weapons in threat scale.

BA assault squads, SW troops (Particularly blood claws), Ork boyz, Khornate berserkers assuming you get the charge. Daemonettes I would happily attack. Some tyranids. Cheaper-end vanguard veterans that are light on power weapons and ++ Saves are game too, in my opinion.

These all depend on huge numbers of regular attacks (And/or a rending hit) to do their real damage, and in the case of slugga boyz or grey hunters have only a single model with a powerfist/PW to pose any real threat. Between the vindicare assassin you should be taking anyway, your 2+ save, and feel no pain...Neither the hidden PK/PF or the mass of regular attacks should pose much trouble.

Do not however, throw them at things with stormshields or 2+ inv saves, that also have power attacks, and expect them to not come out of the combat as A: Tiny chunks resembling balled up tin foil or B: One half the squad dragging the other half of the squad back to the medbay in garbage bags.

Played a friendly test game against Draigo and his Paladin friends. It was the ultimate "deathstar" unit. 10 Paladins with apoth, 4 psycannons, banner, Draigo, and a Librarian. The Paladins were fully complexed and Draigo could soak up single Lascannon or Multi-melta shots.

Sure, that's just a ton of points. But it didn't die, could stretch out and claim 2 objectives, and point-click-kill one thing a turn. And I didn't dare get within 12" of it or even think about assaulting it.

Not to start a "deathstar" debate, but those 4 psycannons had an effective range of 30" thanks to relentless. 16 rending shots was just nasty. So this slowly moving monster was great at range and in close. The mix of psychic powers from the two HQ's was useful as well. And before you say "ORK" remember that Draigo can give them countercharge for horde games, there are halberds in there to amp up initiative against MEQ, the might psy power stacking with hammerhand is fun, and the banner just pours on the attacks from a unit that big.

We actually tied the game (test tactics and all that) but also figured that the apoth was really pointless. He never needed to make a FNP roll. I was either pounding him with stuff that ignored FNP, or he would pass his 2+ saves from small arms fire. The fact that the unit is complexed out and that most STR 8 weapons also ignore FNP make the apoth about useless.

I find just taking more regular Terminators seems to be a better choice. The Paladin advantage, especially when adding in an Apothecary just doesn't seem worth the cost to me.

I've been running a 5 man unit with just 2x cannons and the free weapons (still diverse) and its been working well so far. Paladins are actually more efficient than termies per cannon shot. 225 pts for 1 cannon, vs 315 for two. The paladins having double wounds, and improved WS is also a good boost. There is of course the ID AP 1-2 problem.... Which I can only suggest trying to hide in cover when possible. If you already have a shrouding librarian, that's nice too (but not required).

The games I've played with them, I've taken jump infantry and Priffleman dreads, which gives the enemy more pressing concerns than a group of slow moving infantry. Something about having their vehicles hammered by stun/shaken free dreadsd and their squads harassed by jump infantry with a 30" jump. The paladins advancing among the slow moving Pbolt backs give a counter charge for people who try to go after my troops.

Two nights ago:

Three broadsides (with some markerlight support) shoot @ Draigo + Paladins + Apothecary squad... 3 hits, 3 wounds. Three instant dead paladins...

Morale check... failed.

Kroot escort 1000+ points off the table.

Epic pallyfail.

The guy you were playing was horrible then.

Anything S8 or higher or AP2/1 should have at least one wound placed on Draigo. That's what he's there for.

Cottonjaw wrote:Two nights ago:

Three broadsides (with some markerlight support) shoot @ Draigo + Paladins + Apothecary squad... 3 hits, 3 wounds. Three instant dead paladins...

Morale check... failed.

Kroot escort 1000+ points off the table.

Epic pallyfail.

lol

When playing a Paladin-based (generally Draigowing) army, it's important to keep several things in mind:

1. Multi-assaults are your friend. They keep you in combat longer (thereby giving you a reprieve from enemy shooting), and allow you to spread the pain better. In a unit with close combat abilities as devestating as a unit of Paladins, you should have little trouble dealing with all but the hardiest of foes in close combat, and so dealing with lots of them at once should not be too scary. Especially with Librarian or Psychotroke support.

2. Support is key. Paladins are cool, but without support, they will go down quickly. They're slow and vulnerable to heavy/special weaponry. Your goal should be to distract the enemy, or at least hamstring their efforts to kill your paladins. Interceptors and the Vindicare are great for this, with their mobility/range allowing them to easily pick off the scarier units in your opponent's army, allowing your Paladins to continue to advance with much less fear of being torn apart by enemy fire. Additionally, if your opponent attacks either one of those units, they're not attacking your Paladins, which is another bonus for you.

3. Power weapons and plasma weaponry is scary, but overrated against Paladins. Although no paladin unit should ever scoff at enemies loaded up with Plasma (unless they have Plasma Syphon in the unit) they're not quite as scary as some people make them out to be. Assuming BS4, plasma weaponry will only end up actually causing an unsaved wound 37% of the time. And although that's still considerably threatening, with wound allocation shenanigans and 2 wounds per model, it's not nearly as scary as it would be for normal Terminators. That's essentially 37 shots fired before you begin removing models, which means a lot of plasma. Additionally, power weapons (below S8) suffer from the same issue against Paladins. Except that most power weaponry will be hitting on 4+ and wounding on 4+/3+, meaning that Paladins are even more resliant.

Remember, wounds (in excess of 1) were meant to be lost. Don't be afraid to lose a few if it means you can do more damage to your opponent. It's only when you start losing individual models that you should start worrying.

I must admit, that at first, I thought that MSU of Paladins (5 man) were the way to go, but after some careful playtesting, they are not. One large brick (Warmahordes players will recognise this) is much more survivable than two small units.

IMO, Draigo armies are going to be more competitive if they have one massive unit of Paladins with Librarian back up and a couple of small units of regular Terminators providing either shielding duties or roadblocks for charging units, delaying the opponent so the Paladins can make a killer strike.

I tried this against Orks and even with a huge mob of boys, they couldn't get past the two roadblocks I set in front and my Paladins had a field day killing the entire mob (20+ Orks) in one combat phase.
If you can afford them, take one large unit and two small units of Paladins. They WILL NOT let you down. Taking Dreadknights as moving terrain isn't a bad idea either.
Oh and take a Dreadnought. The -4 for psychics is game winning.
Now how do I beat Dark Eldar with Paladins??? :-(

Cottonjaw wrote:Two nights ago:

Three broadsides (with some markerlight support) shoot @ Draigo + Paladins + Apothecary squad... 3 hits, 3 wounds. Three instant dead paladins...

Morale check... failed.

Kroot escort 1000+ points off the table.

Epic pallyfail.

The player sucked, not the pallys.
He should have put a shot on Draigo because he can't suffer ID.
Draigo also makes the unit fearless, so they couldn't have failed their morale check.

rovian wrote:Well here's my problem marbo steps out of the shadow and blows up 7 pallies or they stay away as pycannons are 24 in range so unfortanetaly shep there going to have to close to shoot and staying from melta is increasingly diffcult.

Yeah dude, i know. I don't run a single terminator of any variety in my competitive lists. I'm just trying to make some lemonade for Kasrkin Legion. They can't handle meltaspam without a 3+ save (thus, shrouding and some distance)

Kasrkinlegion wrote:This is what is starting to get me unendingly frustrated with GW's products. Without fail, every model I want to buy and paint or think looks good, ends up being a liability on the table. Maybe I'm cursed because the models I happen to like, aren't the ones GW wants to make over powered. It seems to me that there are just far better options for GK's than any terminator armored model without a stormshield in the GK army (which leaves you with Draigo). But here I am with two boxes of terminators raring to go. I have done this before, and all that ends up happening is I get frustrated with 40k and quit it for two years. I've spent too much money on this stuff these days to have this happen again, but I also know I will be pissed beyond recognition if my $100 worth of models gets me tabled every game.

terminators can be your pet unit. The troop terminators are an acceptable alternative to strike squads as a scoring unit. You have to be very disciplined and understand that in the hostile world of 40k, non storm shield terminators have low survivability when within 12-18" of mech spam, but outside of that range, they can have quite a high survivability. Almost every HQ choice in the book is forced to run terminator armor, and so you can use these two units as bunkers for that HQ choice. Respect special weapons, run halberds, stay in cover, think about getting stealth, and they are a perfectly serviceable side-grade in a competitive list. Paladins aren't really.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:Okay rant over... these suggestions are actually quite helpful. Seems something like teleporting them behind chimeras will be a great tactic. I like the idea of flanking with them, keeping them on the opposite side of the table from your opponent (which could also make them heavy points denial as well). Having a librarian smokescreen them seems like the best option. Use them as a shrouded shooting platform until you can get close enough for a charge.

Yeah, teleporting with them just flat out isn't necessary. They can be deployed safely and are resilient to all kinds of shooting with shrouding, and they have move and shoot psycannons. Just deploy them, so that you don't risk scattering them in to the 'kill zone'. Once your long range fire support has softened up the rest of the opponents force. It will gradually get safer and safer to make aggressive moves with the termies.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:
Edit:
Actually looks like the librarian suggestion has some problems.

1) Paladins seem only worth taking if you have Draigo. Draigo seems like he will make a group of Paladins totally own if he's with them due to his storm shield.
2) Librarians are 150 points for basically the same stat line as a paladin. I know they can do all kinds of wicked shananigans, but with only two wounds, and a crappy save (unless you spend even more points and get them a staff or something), librarians seem like they'll be a heavy liability.

Well, you do have to take an HQ and what HQ were you thinking about taking?

1) Paladins just aren't really worth taking, unless your opponent and yourself are playing under the banner of 'fluffy'. Draigo doesn't change that.
2) Those wicked shenanigans can be absolutely backbreaking to your opponent. Shrouding on a psyfleman dread that is standing behind a smoked rhino is uberfrustrating. Stacking a psychic hood with reinforced aegis can really just lock down enemy psychic powers. You've got a template jaws of the world wolf... and access to servo-skulls

It should probably be stated again that grey knights are not an 'assault' army. Every model has a storm bolter, storm shields are essentially non-existent. Every unit has access to a dynamic, flexible, master-key type of gun (the psycannon) they now can mech up....

I'm not saying they are terrible at CC, but their CC is what they use after they have shaped the battlefield with their shooting. Looking at the librarian and lamenting that he isn't a crap-kicking assault beast means that you are missing what the GK are going to be doing successfully... beating up on units that have been critically weakened by dreadnought, psycannon and storm bolter fire.

Is the Paladin Apocathery 7X points or base cost + that? Please tell me the cost of one isn't in the triple digits...

Amaya wrote:Is the Paladin Apocathery 7X points or base cost + that? Please tell me the cost of one isn't in the triple digits...

It is. 55 for the pally. 75 for Apoth. upgrade.

Shep wrote:

Well, you do have to take an HQ and what HQ were you thinking about taking?

1) Paladins just aren't really worth taking, unless your opponent and yourself are playing under the banner of 'fluffy'. Draigo doesn't change that.
2) Those wicked shenanigans can be absolutely backbreaking to your opponent. Shrouding on a psyfleman dread that is standing behind a smoked rhino is uberfrustrating. Stacking a psychic hood with reinforced aegis can really just lock down enemy psychic powers. You've got a template jaws of the world wolf... and access to servo-skulls

It should probably be stated again that grey knights are not an 'assault' army. Every model has a storm bolter, storm shields are essentially non-existent. Every unit has access to a dynamic, flexible, master-key type of gun (the psycannon) they now can mech up....

I'm not saying they are terrible at CC, but their CC is what they use after they have shaped the battlefield with their shooting. Looking at the librarian and lamenting that he isn't a crap-kicking assault beast means that you are missing what the GK are going to be doing successfully... beating up on units that have been critically weakened by dreadnought, psycannon and storm bolter fire.

I never thought about playing GK's as a shoot first and ask questions with my sword later army. MY view of them was get them into CC as fast as possible so they don't die. It seems like a retreating storm bolter/psycannon curtain could work well too. Throw in some henchmen with meltas and your're good to go...

Giving me lots to think about... this has been a great thread.

Yes, they work much better when you shoot first and cc later, because they aren't a 100% cc dedicated army. If you charge into combat too soon against true cc based armies, you can get into serious trouble.

As for the whole apothecary debate, there are a ton of situations where it isn't worth it, but there are a few where it is useful. Mostly, it only comes in handy vs an army that is relying on massive amounts of wounds over massive ap1 and ap2 fire. Think of getting hit by 40 poison attacks by DE or 40 scatter lasers. These players are rely on weight of numbers to finish off a target (a common tactic vs th/ss termies. In these cases, having fnp to back up the inevitable 1's you roll in that many dice would actually help.

The thing is, Paladins have the capacity to beat even most dedicated close combat units in close combat. Their ability to shoot well is a huge bonus. It gives them a lot of versatility. If you need to get into close combat, Paladins can do it just fine. If you need to shoot, Paladins can do it just fine.

People need to stop assuming that every single GK unit has to rely on shooting to get the job done. Yes, Paladins can rely on shooting, they do it quite well, but they don't have to. Pick the tools that match the situation. If you can do both, why limit yourself to either?

I'm not sure if paying 75 points for FNP is worth it. If you're facing a huge weight of fire or wounds, that's why you have two wounds. As IG, when I try to take down terminators it's either with Lascannon, Plasma, or blobs. Even the blobs really count on power weapons more than the regular weight of attacks.

If you play with paladins and use the apothecary, I suggest keeping track of how many wounds you roll FNP for, to give you an idea of what you're getting back. Each person's meta is different, so it's possible some people will love it. I don't think I'd have a place for it, though.