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I've not had much experience with Chaos Termies until now other than a termicde unit I sometimes use, due to the general consensus online that Chaos Termies are not worth it. But can anyone tell me why?

Is it simply that they are not Assault Termies? Otherwise they actually seem superior to their loyalist counterparts, simply because you can actually save some points by not getting those extra power fists.
The way I see it, you need around 2 fists to consistently pop most vehicles, and power weapons seem actually better for the rest of the squad, avoiding the initiative loss. Is the reaper autocannon particularly inferior to the assault cannon?

I have a feeling that people are simply so spoiled from the TH/SS combo that everything else seems useless, but I dont believe this is a fair assessment. A sizable terminator squad deep striking behind enemy lines seems just as valid as the classic termicide unit.

DrDuckman wrote:I've not had much experience with Chaos Termies until now other than a termicde unit I sometimes use, due to the general consensus online that Chaos Termies are not worth it. But can anyone tell me why?

Is it simply that they are not Assault Termies? Otherwise they actually seem superior to their loyalist counterparts, simply because you can actually save some points by not getting those extra power fists.
The way I see it, you need around 2 fists to consistently pop most vehicles, and power weapons seem actually better for the rest of the squad, avoiding the initiative loss. Is the reaper autocannon particularly inferior to the assault cannon?

I have a feeling that people are simply so spoiled from the TH/SS combo that everything else seems useless, but I dont believe this is a fair assessment. A sizable terminator squad deep striking behind enemy lines seems just as valid as the classic termicide unit.

I can't really say... Terminators are Terminators, at least, from my limited SM and CSM knowledge, so they are awesome no matter what, unless they are GK Termies, those can be fielded as Troops (Shudder), but cost a sack full of points to run (Yay!), so, I'm guessing yes, they are spoiled, or maybe biased based on how they use their Termies, but, for CSM, Terminators are, at least, in my opinion, and (once again) limited knowledge, a great addition to any Chaos army... but hey, what do I know, I'm just a Mindless Spore Mine.

I see terminators all the time!

Not sure what you're on about, op!

There is nothing wrong with chaos termies, its just that THSS termies are simply the best swiss army combat unit around. The closest chaos comes is with tzeentch termies with a 4++.

Other than that, I quite like how chaos termies can get combimeltas on everyone, which besides the range are perhaps the best basic infantry small arm in the game.

As an aside, deepstriking--while not terrible--is probably not the best idea all of the time. I myself like getting a 4-5 man squad with a landraider. This gives you a vehicle large enough to hide 2 daemon princes behind, and with no upgrades only costs 220! You can still deepstrike, but have more options.

PS: You mention that you like the regular PW... while if they work for you more power to you, you still want as many pfists as you can afford. Sure, if you can only afford 1 pfist then fine, but init4 swings slower than many dedicated combat units anyway, and s4 has trouble wounding many dedicated combat units. As for the reaper, its very expensive, and I would rather have an extra combi-melta and use the heavy weapon slot for the heavy flamer at 5 points.

Their shooting is relatively meh, as for the points you pay the twin linked bolters and reaper autocannon are pretty underwhelming. In close combat, they really wish they had storm shields. They can beat up Tac squads but struggle against large units. They don't have the ability survive just about anything like assault termies do. While they can be given marks, these are pricey and situational. The one major advantage they have over their loyalist counterparts is the ability to take combi-weapons. Termicide is great for vaporizing a vehicle and then being annoying. The issue is that other than termicide, they're basically just regular terminators. You don't see a lot of people taking regular terminators anymore.

I think that part of the problem with termies is the delivery system. Chaos has crappy LRs, and most people take other units in those slots anyways. A standing gunline termie unit isn't very good points efficiency. So most people tend to deep strike termicide with chaos.

Now there is a nasty build that I've seen with chaos termies, all champion upgrades, all paired lightning claws. Give them mark of korne for 5 attacks each, or mark of slaanesh for 4 attacks each at I5. Requires LR for delivery, but whatever. This isn't going to be serious, but man will it mess up what it assaults.

notabot187 wrote:
Now there is a nasty build that I've seen with chaos termies, all champion upgrades, all paired lightning claws. Give them mark of korne for 5 attacks each, or mark of slaanesh for 4 attacks each at I5. Requires LR for delivery, but whatever. This isn't going to be serious, but man will it mess up what it assaults.

You're right, it isn't a serious build. I have used it before and let me tell you, wiping out whole squads of Necrons or Orkz or gaunts is freaking fantastic feeling, esp when you have your own custom made Khárn actually Bro-fisting the Termies.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:Their shooting is relatively meh, as for the points you pay the twin linked bolters and reaper autocannon are pretty underwhelming. In close combat, they really wish they had storm shields. They can beat up Tac squads but struggle against large units. They don't have the ability survive just about anything like assault termies do. While they can be given marks, these are pricey and situational. The one major advantage they have over their loyalist counterparts is the ability to take combi-weapons. Termicide is great for vaporizing a vehicle and then being annoying. The issue is that other than termicide, they're basically just regular terminators. You don't see a lot of people taking regular terminators anymore.

Pretty much this. They lack the straight up killing/durability power of TH/SS Terminators and they're too expensive to be viable after they're significantly upgraded. The big advantages of Chaos are the combi-weapons and cheaper price tag.
Chaos also lacks the better Land Raider options and wargear so they're stuck with the basic model without power of the machine spirit for movement and shooting multiple targets.

Minigun has it exactly.

Chaos LRs are not that good. In any point size below, say, 2000, the LR + terminators just doesn't do enough to justify its cost against most likely opponents. The fact that SM assault terminators are only 200pts, more durable, more deadly, often supported by Null Zone, and in a transport which is good at popping ours (can take a multimelta and can move 12" and still shoot it) makes that a really bad matchup.

Termicide is nice and cheap.

You can (and I do) use them as a neat kind of swiss-army-knife DS unit. 4-6 guys, with combi-meltas and a heavy flamer, dropping into the enemy backfield to bust an enemy tank, then contest objectives/kill vulnerable enemy units/generally cause trouble. If they show up late from Reserve, though, it hurts to be missing that many points.

In Ard Boyz I've used a unit of 8-10, which can be surprisingly brutal. 40kEnthusiast has also written about a neat list with minimal scoring units, using 2-3 units of 10 terminators just running up the field. The first being Tzeentch (so it doesn't care about cover) and the second Slaanesh (which is nasty in HtH with Lightning Claws, and uses the Tzeentch unit for cover).

I so wish they had strombolters instead of TL bolters - that alone would make quite a difference to the generic Chaos termies.

On the other hand, they do have some advantages - those standard power weapons can cause immense damage against the right opponents.

TL bolters are a shade better than storm bolters at 12" or less, though, and Chaos Terminators are short range units for better or worse. I would rather have the extra special weapons shots anyway.

They're definitely an all-or nothing unit though- either a disposable special weapons squad or a large beatdown unit. The lack of a good transport makes them hard to use in a balanced way. What I wouldn't give to be able to take even just TL heavy flamers on a Chaos Land Raider with Demonic Possession.

Another annoying thing with the TL Bolters is that Chaos Terminator armor =/= relentless so you can't move and shoot out to 24". This effectively limits the whole squad to 12" or less for shooting.

Them not being Relentless is so dumb.

Apologies if this sounds dumb but how come SM Termies are Relentless yet Chaos Termies are not?

I'll feel very silly if I've missed something here!

wildboar wrote:Apologies if this sounds dumb but how come SM Termies are Relentless yet Chaos Termies are not?

I'll feel very silly if I've missed something here!

Don't own the chaos book, but it might be because the entry for CSM says it confers X to the model, and relentless rule isn't on the list. SM books all have this, but chaos might not due to its age and suckage.

Yeah you are indeed correct. I just checked and it confers virtually all the associated rules for Relentless without specifically noting the word itself.
From what I can think the only benefit 'missing' will be the 24" bolter shots. Can't think of any others off the top of my head.

Can't wait to tell my CSM playing brother. He moans about his Codex enough as it is

Thanks

IIRC the other thing they're missing is the ability to shoot the bolters and then assault. :( Suck.

Mannahnin wrote:IIRC the other thing they're missing is the ability to shoot the bolters and then assault. :( Suck.

I think they can do that actually. Chaos Terminators have weird rules that are mostly like Relentless in that they can shoot and assault or move and shoot the heavy weapon but they left out the whole "fire rapid fire weapons out to 24" " part.

I double-checked my codex, and I stand corrected. Thanks, MG!

I like them for what it counts for.

Mannahnin wrote:I double-checked my codex, and I stand corrected. Thanks, MG!

Thank goodness, you had me worried here at work! I was all set to speed home and double check that I haven't been doing it the wrong way this whole time.

Now I can get a milkshake and put the car in cruise control, hooray!

Chaos termies also have a bit of leadership fragility that other termies don't. Straight LD with no re-roll or ATSKNF can lead to bad times.

While they may not be as durable or cost-effective as other Codexes, I've had decent luck with using a five-man squad of Tzeentch terminators as sort of a quick-fix squad. At the moment I deepstrike, I determine what needs to die the most, and land and blast away at it with combi-meltas. From then on they use their reaper autocannon and bolter fire (not twin-linked anymore, unfortunately...) to provide very durable support. Most of the time it works pretty great without hogging all the points.

For added fun, I sometimes throw a Tzeentch terminator lord with a deathscreamer in there, but that's just me being fluffy and having fun with my models.

Polonius wrote:Chaos termies also have a bit of leadership fragility that other termies don't. Straight LD with no re-roll or ATSKNF can lead to bad times.

Ld10 though, and only 10pts to give them the re-roll. It is mutually exclusive with +1A, +1I, +1T, or 4+ Invul, sadly.

I wish they could still get marks, or that the Icons of Tz, Nu, Kh, and Sl also conferred Fearless. It's not like it would be overpowered.

I knew they could get the re-roll, it's just hard to imagine taking that icon.

I usually leave them without an icon to keep them cheap. I take the IoCG sometimes with a bigger unit. I'm just beginning to build some more terminators to try fielding bigger units with Tzeentch or Slaanesh.