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• Skills and drills: Xeno-fighters ? Orks (All eligible units [Guard infantry and Sentinels) have Xeno-fighters ? Orks)
• Regimental organisation: Grenadiers
• Allow restricted troops: Special weapon squads
• Allow restricted troops: Ogryns
• Allow restricted troops: Rough Riders

• Command HQ: Caef (Senior Officer) with laspistol and close combat weapon. Two veteran guardsmen (medic, standard bearer with company banner) and two guardsmen.
• Fire support squad: 3 x Heavy Bolter
• Fire support squad: 3 x Heavy Bolter
• Anti-tank squad: 3 x Lascannon
• Special weapons squad: Six guardsmen with laspistols, frag grenades and close combat weapons. One has a demo charge.

• Six ogryns, one of whom is a B.O.N.E.head (bionics).
• Hardened veterans: Van Corp (veteran sergent) with laspistol and close combat weapon, five veterans with shotguns, two with flamers.

• Command Squad: Lief (junior officer) with laspistol and close combat weapon, four guardsmen with grenade launchers.
• Squad 1: Van Corp (veteran sergeant) with boltpistol and close combat weapon. Nine guardsmen including a missile launcher team and a grenade launcher.
• Squad 2: Corp (sergeant) with lasgun. Nine guardsmen including a missile launcher team and a grenade launcher.
• Squad 3: Corp (sergeant) with lasgun. Nine guardsmen including a missile launcher team and a grenade launcher.
• Squad 4: Corp (sergeant) with lasgun. Nine guardsmen including a missile launcher team and a grenade launcher.

• 10 Grenadiers (2 grenade launchers)
• 5 Grenadiers (1 flamer)

• Van Corp (veteran sergeant) with lasgun, and his squad of nine rough riders, including two with meltaguns. The rest have lasguns.

Lamb's World 26th, 23rd Recon element (400pts)

Troops:

• Armoured Fist squad (meltagun) with Chimera (turret heavy bolter, hull heavy bolter).

Fast Attack:

• Sentinel Squadron: two Mars pattern sentinels (multilasers)
• Sentinel Squadron: one Mars pattern sentinel (multilaser) and one Armageddon pattern sentinel (lascannon)

What exactly do you want us to say about this list? I'm sorry to have to say this, but it's almost 100% pure crap. Reading it makes me cringe.

There's no cohesion, the doctrine choices are boarderline slowed, there are Ogryn, Grenade Launchers, Missile Launchers and Grenadiers as far as the eye can see, your weapon choices are all mixed up and you've got a very low model count for this points level (4 squads plus 15 Grenadiers and some whacky H-Vets?).

I mean, you've taken Xenos Hunters for Emperor's sake! Who in their right mind takes Xenos-Hunters?

But I digress. You've picked a theme for this army, so I come back to my original question:

What exactly do you want us to say about this list?

Do you want us to tell you that it's a good, effective, tight list that will do very well, or do you want us to say "OMG! It"s the fluffy! C00l!!!!2" and pat you on the back? Or do you want a list of the (many, many) problems with it, problems that, whilst going with your theme, turn the list into something that might be considered competative at a tournament with a limit of 1000 points?

Because I don't exactly understand what it is you want us to say about this list, I'll just leave my comments to this:

Nice theme, but a good theme doesn't excuse a bad army list.

BYE

Hey HBMC,

I appreciate reading your posts, because by-and-large, you come up with some great reasons why you have your opinions about certain selections/options ? and particularly with regard to Guard armies. (Though 'the doctrine choices are bo[a]rderline slowed' is perhaps not the most tactful of phrases! )

In addition, I was aware that the Dakka crowd frowns on choices like Grenadiers and Ogryns ? so I'll explain why I'm taking them: in the case of Grenadiers ? it's down to time. I've gotta get the army assembled and painted in two months, so a largish platoon and a couple of squads of grenadiers is more likely than two largish platoons. As for the ogryns: purely a modelling thing: I've got some great conversions in mind.

So, to clarify my initial question into bite-sized chunks:

1) I will only be fighting Tau, Orks and Eldar. Given this fact, I figured grenade launchers and missile launchers are a good substitute for plasma guns and lascannons. Is this correct? If not, why ? and what's a better selection? Would you recommend putting the heavy bolters from the HQ platoon into the squads and having three anti-tank squads?

2) I was playing about with the idea of an armoured fist squad as the second troop choice; but figured the only tank on the table's got a life expectancy of roughly turn 1... But if I do do this, it would allow me to swap grenadiers for deep-striking stormtroopers in the elites section. Still wrong? What would you suggest for my troops; bearing in mind the time schedule?  If I drop the strormtroopers and grenadiers entirely, what doctrine would you suggest I replace it with?

3) I want this list to be absolutely as simple as can be ? both for myself and my opponent. Assuming that my opponent and I are border-line slowed , I don't want to use Iron Discipline or other leadership-based doctrines, since I find it's relatively complex and just another thing for me to forget. Given that I drop Xeno-fighters (saving me... ooh... 100 points or so?), what would you recommend I get instead?

4) Given that I don't want this to be a cookie-cutter 'Dakka' list: i.e. completely and perfectly optimised, but I don't have an aversion to actually playing a competitive game, what suggestions do you have for altering the army? For example: we all agree that ogryns are rubbish. In an ideal world, no guard army would have them. That's fine. Nevertheless, I want some: so is there any way to make them less rubbish? Is a BONEhead a good choice, or just more points chucked into a sink unit?

5) What's mixed-up about the weapon choices, exactly? I've only started assembling the line units, so they're easily changed. Would autocannons be a good choice in squads, given the armies I'll be facing?

6) Finally, what's good about the list? Do the Rough Riders past muster? Are they just going to get splattered 'cause there're no tanks? Are the command HQ and command sections sensible?

Thanks for your time, and chill out!

 

"I appreciate reading your posts, because by-and-large, you come up with some great reasons why you have your opinions about certain selections/options ? and particularly with regard to Guard armies. (Though 'the doctrine choices are bo[a]rderline slowed' is perhaps not the most tactful of phrases!"

Heh. Why thankyou. I must say usually people don't respond so... well... when I say things like that. I'm glad that you're someone who can see what I'm saying and doesn't get hung up on the way I'm saying it. And, yes, saying the doctrine choices were slowed was a bit more dramatic than it needed to be.

Then again... Xenos-Hunters. No, really, Xenos-Hunters???

It's down to time. I've gotta get the army assembled and painted in two months, so a largish platoon and a couple of squads of grenadiers is more likely than two largish platoons.
 
Hey, that's fine. Nothing wrong with taking something because your pressed for time, but you can still take Strom Troopers as Troops without burning a Doctrine point. Inquisitorial Stormies are much better. Granted, it means you need a second Guard Troops choice, but there are smaller troops choices than min-sized Platoons.

The problem with Grenadiers, and I've said this before, is that they defeat the purpose of Strom Troopers. Storm Troopers, unfortunately, are already far outclassed by Hardened Veterans, but the one thing that Stormies have going for them is their flexability. They can sorta do anything. Grenadiers remove all their DS and Infiltrating options, and thereby remove their flexability. Inquisitorial Stormies can't DS/Infiltrate either, but they can get cheaper transports for 'drive by' units, and if you want you can put them up to 10 men and turn them into a make-shift counter-assault unit with 2 Flamers and a Thunderhammer.

As for the ogryns: purely a modelling thing: I've got some great conversions in mind.

Then it is a true pity how their rules are so utterly terrible. I hope the tournament favours you and you face nothing but Tau/Gaunts, and no power fists.

I will only be fighting Tau, Orks and Eldar

Speak of the devil.

Alright, in that case take the Ogryns. You are in the lucky position of knowing your enemy before constructing the list, and Ogryn can work against those armies. Just be careful of Power Klawz, and Scorps with a Fisting Exarch.

Given this fact, I figured grenade launchers and missile launchers are a good substitute for plasma guns and lascannons. Is this correct? If not, why ? and what's a better selection?

Is it correct? No. Not at all.

Why? The 4th Ed 40K blast marker rules, that's why.

1. There's no screening any more, so no need to bunch up B2B to block LOS. In fact, spreading to 2" between models means that blast marker weapons are of no threat.
2. You have to centre the template on a single model, so a commander who knows how to space out his forces will force you to waste your blast makers. In other words, you'll be hitting 1 and a partial each time you shoot.

This means that your Frag Missiles will hit 4.5 models a game with an S4 AP6 weapon. The Heavy Bolter will hit 9 models with S5 AP4 shots. The Grenade Launcher is even worse.

As far as Kraks vs Lascannons, well that should be obvious. Your Guardsmen are BS3. This means that of the 6 shots you fire a game, 3 will hit. So, to spell it out:

6 Krak Missile Shots = 3 Hits = 3 S8 AP3 hits.
6 Lascannon Shots = 3 Hits = 3 S9 AP2 hits.

It shouldn't be too hard to figure out which is better. This has been said a thousand times, but if you're only going to be hitting your target 50% of the time, why not make sure that those hits count for something.

Finally, Grenade Launchers and Missile Launchers are versitile weapons. You don't need versitile weapons as you're a Guard player. Heavy Weapons are your strength, so why not take something that's very good at a single job rather than 'ok' at lots of different jobs.

The only exception to this, as Mauleed proved, is that you can make missile launchers effective by ensuring that you don't have anything but Missile Launchers. In other words every HW you take is a ML. That way the usual rule of 40K - Everything Counts in Large Numbers - comes into play and the statistical advantage of taking multiples of the same thing begins to play in your favour (ie. Law of Averages).

Grenade Launchers do not fit into this exception. They're 2 points more than a flamer and don't kill infantry as well, and for two points more you can get a Plasma or Meltagun, both infinately better at their respective battlefield roles than the GL will ever be.

I was playing about with the idea of an armoured fist squad as the second troop choice; but figured the only tank on the table's got a life expectancy of roughly turn 1

That is indeed correct. In fact, in truth, the one good point about the list you posted was the fact that it was an all infantry list. Your enemy's AT weapons have nothing to fire at... 'cept those Ogryn...

If I drop the strormtroopers and grenadiers entirely, what doctrine would you suggest I replace it with?

Well, 20 Conscripts will cost you 80 points.

"I don't want to use Iron Discipline or other leadership-based doctrines, since I find it's relatively complex and just another thing for me to forget"

That's fine. I'm not say that you should take a bunch of Leadership-Based Doctrines. Most of the Leadership-Based Doctrines (and most of the Doctrines for that matter) are total gak anyway. Iron Discipline though is the extreme exception. It is so undenyably useful that not taking it is a crime - one that borderline retardation isn't an excuse for!

Is a BONEhead a good choice, or just more points chucked into a sink unit?

If you're going to take the Ogryn, then yes. It's Ld9 and another attack. That's worth something I guess...

What's mixed-up about the weapon choices, exactly? I've only started assembling the line units, so they're easily changed. Would autocannons be a good choice in squads, given the armies I'll be facing?

Yes. Better than Missile Launchers, that's for sure. 2 S7 > 1 S8 vs vehicles. Plus with two shots a turn you'll hit 6 times a game rather than 3.

Finally, what's good about the list? Do the Rough Riders past muster? Are they just going to get splattered 'cause there're no tanks? Are the command HQ and command sections sensible?

The best point, as I already mentioned, is that it is an All Infantry list. The RR's are fine. RR's are excellent units. Unfortunately the presence of RR's make the Ogryn even more redundant.

Given that I don't want this to be a cookie-cutter 'Dakka' list: i.e. completely and perfectly optimised, but I don't have an aversion to actually playing a competitive game, what suggestions do you have for altering the army?

Well this is the big question:

What do you want this army to do?

The reason I reacted the way I did in my original post is because I know that you're not some brainless n00b from the EoT trying to tell us all how 'l337' his Ogryn and Mortars. From your posts here you clearly have your head screwed on correctly, so the list was just so opposite from what I'd expect.

What suggestions do I have? I don't know. Yet. I'll plug away in army builder for a while and see what I can come up with. It's difficult to rebuild an army like when you are so diametrically opposed to so many of the choices yet don't want to fiddle with the 'shell' you've created for the list (ie. I don't want to just post a standard Guard list that I'd take as there'd be no point - it wouldn't be your theme any more, it'd be mine, you wouldn't learn anything and you wouldn't have any fun). But, I'll do what I can.

BYE

I appreciate the time and thought you've put into helping me out; so I'll repay it with some 'off-the-top-of-my-head' fripperies.

Okay: so scrapping and starting again is viable... how's this for a vague force? I'm estimating pointcosts (no codex with me), so I'll be conservative with my guesses. This should also help when adding bells and whistles (lots of spare points); since that's a part of army building I can never get excited about; and hence need most help with.

HQ:
Command platoon:
Stripped down Senior Officer; company standard, medic, two guards
Anti-tank squad (3 lascannons)
Anti-tank squad (3 lascannons)
Anti-tank squad (3 Missile Launchers)
2 Sentinels

Now, bearing in mind what you've said; I think the ML should be okay because:
a) They're cheaper than LC
b) I'll be shooting at AV12 or less (aside from the occasional Hammerhead)
c) *cough cough* I've already got three built *cough*
So, a nice solid anti-tank section that can sit (hopefully) out of range and pop things. The sentinels? See my comments below, under Fast Attack.

Elites:
Six ogryns, B.O.N.E.head (bionics)
Hardened veterans (five shotguns, two flamers)

Yeah, this is the fun throw-away weird stuff section. It runs to something like 250ish points. Far from ideal, but should at least look nice and might come in handy.

Troops:
Two identical platoons of:
Junior officer (no equipment) and four guard with grenade launchers.
Three squads, each with heavy bolter.

Big changes here: missile launchers and special weapons swapped out for heavy bolters and harsh language repsectively. Nice cheap squads, and more of 'em. 
   The grenade launchers consolidated into light-vehicle/aspect warrior hunting squads that can hide until needed. I dig they're pretty useless against MEq and hordes, but I still think properly used, they allow me to keep my officers safe until they pop out and blow a light tank out of the sky. Two S6 hits (on average) should take a Vyper or Trukk (or any number of odd things) out, or at least give it something to think about.
   I have an allergic aversion to plasma, and while I'd love more melta guns, I can't quite justify the outlay in moolah. Would four flamers be a reasonable alternative? I'm still not sure why grenade launchers are so terrible... I've always found the mobility they give command squads to be invaluable (I'm forever running the officers around to bolster lines). The final option of course, would be to have four riflemen. Nice and cheap; and leaves the command squads unassuming and poor targets. The additional platoon command extends the leadership joy and means I don't need to worry *quite* so much about LD tests.

Fast attack:
10 Rough Riders: 8 with lasguns, 2 with meltas
2 Sentinels
2 Sentinels

Cheap, crappy rough riders to contest table quarters/panic people (it's a huge-looking 100ishpt squad), or pop tanks/help pop big bugs. Again, a vanity squad more than anything. I dig those space cowboys!
   Now, following your 'everything counts in large amounts' argument, there're six sentinels (including the two in the command platoon). Everything (except the Rough riders) starts on the board, even in escalation; and six sentinels is a pretty mobile way of catching eldar skimmers/tying up ork mobs/countering infiltrating kroot etc. Yeah, they're the only vehicles; but to be honest, they seem to work more like specialised infantry ? anti-tank's a waste, you keep them out of the way of anything scary, they're as mobile as infantry... and there are six of 'em.
   Now, how to arm them? I like multilasers, but is there a must-have combo I'm missing on sentinels? I toyed with the idea of giving the HQ squadron lascannons and HK missiles. Because they're walkers (two weapons on the move), that's 4 anti-tank shots appearing from behind a hill, which should be enough to damage those super-tough units. Is this cunning like a fox, or cunning like roadkill?

So: what next? This seems to be the core of a decent army, (even bearing my frills) but where do I go from here?

Doctrines?

Obviously Allow Ogryns and Allow Rough Riders are in. I think I'll relegate Xeno-hunters to the background... ; Allow Special Weapons Squads is not currently necessary; so how about... Grenadiers?

Now, the reason I'm going Grenadiers rather than stormtroopers is this:

400pt combat patrol:

Troops (in fact, the whole force)
Two 8-man units of Grenadiers in Chimeras. One unit with two flamers, one unit with two grenade launchers. Each Chimera has Turret HB, Hull HB and Extra Armour. One has a pintle-mounted heavy stubber (yeah, they're rubbish ? but I had 12 spare points!).

This is legal, fun and (as far as I can see) fairly viable in combat patrol, and adds a new dimension to my main force if they are combined (help support the rough riders and sentinels). Vehicles are thus kept out of the main army (sentinels excepted), and I save enough time (I've already got the chimeras painted) to bulk up the squads in the main force.

I'd appreciate any glaring errors being pointed out, and suggestions on how to round out the force.

Cheers again.

Hardened veterans (five shotguns, two flamers)

SOB makes me want to cry, one of the few bs4 things in your army and you are giving them FLAMERS! you know you do not have to roll to hit with flamers right?

Sorry, I believe you can only have 2 AT squads attached to HQ.

RB

HQ:
Command platoon:
Stripped down Senior Officer; company standard, medic, two guards
Anti-tank squad (3 lascannons)
Anti-tank squad (3 lascannons)
Anti-tank squad (3 Missile Launchers)
2 Sentinels

Medic isn't really needed.

a) They're cheaper than LC

They're also completely illegal. You can't have 3 AT units. Stick with the Lascannons.

Elites:
Six ogryns, B.O.N.E.head (bionics)
Hardened veterans (five shotguns, two flamers)

Yeah, this is the fun throw-away weird stuff section. It runs to something like 250ish points. Far from ideal, but should at least look nice and might come in handy.

Vets w/Flamers and Shotguns? No... no... no... Atleast give them something useful. Stick with 6 men (incl. sergeant) and 2 Plasma Guns. That's not ideal, but it works.

Troops:
Two identical platoons of:
Junior officer (no equipment) and four guard with grenade launchers.
Three squads, each with heavy bolter.

Put the GL's in the squads.

Fast attack:
10 Rough Riders: 8 with lasguns, 2 with meltas
2 Sentinels
2 Sentinels

RR's with Lasguns? LASGUNS! LASGUNS!!!!!!!!!!! NO! Bad!

Hunting Lances only.

Troops (in fact, the whole force)
Two 8-man units of Grenadiers in Chimeras. One unit with two flamers, one unit with two grenade launchers. Each Chimera has Turret HB, Hull HB and Extra Armour. One has a pintle-mounted heavy stubber (yeah, they're rubbish ? but I had 12 spare points!).

That's fine if that's all it is. Personally I'd take Inquisitorial Stormies. And don't take Turret HB's. For the same cost make your gun S6.

Ok, a rebuild - I added SWSs for fun!:

I hate this WYSIWYG editor...

Doctrines
     Ogryns
     Rough Riders
     Special Weapon Squads
     Grenadiers
     Iron Discipline <?

 Command Platoon  @ 452 Pts

     Command Squad @ 61 Pts

          Lasguns (x3); Iron Discipline

          Junior Officer @ 45 Pts

               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol

               Carapace Armour 5

          Veteran @ 11 Pts

               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol; Standard Bearer

 

     Anti Tank Squad #1 @ 11 Pts

          Lascannon (x3); Lasguns

     Anti Tank Squad #2 @ 11 Pts

          Lascannon (x3); Lasguns

     Special Weapons Teams #3 @ 63 Pts

          Lasguns (x3); Flamer (x2); Demolition Charge

     Special Weapons Teams #4 @ 63 Pts

          Lasguns (x3); Flamer (x2); Demolition Charge

     Sentinel @ 45 Pts

          Multi-Laser

 

 

5 Ogryns  @ 165 Pts

     Ripper Gun; Frag Grenades

     Ogryn Bone 'ead @ 4 Pts

          Ripper Gun; Frag Grenades

          Bionics 5

 

5 Hardened Veterans  @ 73 Pts

     Lasguns (x3); Plasma Guns (x2)

     Hardened Veteran Sergeant @ 13 Pts

          Close combat Weapon; Laspistol

 

 

 Infantry Platoon  @ 279 Pts

     4 Command Squad @ 45 Pts

          Lasguns (x4); Iron Discipline

          1 Junior Officer @ 4 Pts

               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol

     9 Infantry Squad #1 @ 78 Pts

          Heavy Bolter; Lasguns; Grenade Launcher

          1 Sergeant @ 6 Pts

               Laspistol and CCW

     9 Infantry Squad @ 78 Pts

          Heavy Bolter; Lasguns; Grenade Launcher

          1 Sergeant @ 6 Pts

               Laspistol and CCW

     9 Infantry Squad @ 78 Pts

          Heavy Bolter; Lasguns; Grenade Launcher

          1 Sergeant @ 6 Pts

               Laspistol and CCW

 

 Infantry Platoon  @ 279 Pts

     4 Command Squad @ 45 Pts

          Lasguns (x4); Iron Discipline

          1 Junior Officer @ 4 Pts

               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol

     9 Infantry Squad #1 @ 78 Pts

          Heavy Bolter; Lasguns; Grenade Launcher

          1 Sergeant @ 6 Pts

               Laspistol and CCW

     9 Infantry Squad @ 78 Pts

          Heavy Bolter; Lasguns; Grenade Launcher

          1 Sergeant @ 6 Pts

               Laspistol and CCW

     9 Infantry Squad @ 78 Pts

          Heavy Bolter; Lasguns; Grenade Launcher

          1 Sergeant @ 6 Pts

               Laspistol and CCW

 

 

5 Rough Riders  @ 72 Pts

     Hunting Lances

     1 Rough Rider Veteran Sergeant @ 17 Pts

          Laspistol; Hunting Lance

 

 

2 Sentinels  @ 9 Pts

     Multi-Laser

2 Sentinels  @ 9 Pts

     Multi-Laser

 

Models in Army: 122
Total Army Cost: 1500

BYE