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I didn't take much time to search the forum for this topic, so I figured I would post it here anyway and let the mods merge it, if necessary.

In Codex: Grey Knights, under the Nemesis Dreadknight rules entry, the book states that it comes standard with "WARGEAR: Two Nemesis Doomfists."

Proceed to the Wargear section and read about the Nemesis Doomfist, particularly the rules entry:

....A Nemesis doomfist follows the rules for Dreadnought close combat weapons.

That line is important, and thus I direct you to the specific rule in the rulebook regarding Dreadnought close combat weapons:

DREADNOUGHT CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS
...A Dreadnought close combat weapon is a power weapon and doubles the walker's Strength in close combat (up to a maximum of 10).

Since a Nemesis doomfist "follows the rules for," and doesn't just "count as," or "functions in the same way as," that means it's iron-clad.

My point? A Nemesis Dreadknight is not a Walker. It never functions as a Walker under any circumstances. It is a Monstrous Creature. The rules for Dreadnought close combat weapons state specifically that it "doubles the WALKER'S Strength in close combat..." There's nothing in the rules entry, or the unit entry that suggests it gains a strength bonus from the doomfists, nor are there any exceptions throughout the Codex.

If we are to take this as-written, the Dreadknight is Strength 6 with the benefits of a Nemesis Force Weapon (ie: Force Weapon and Daemonbane), and the bonus attack for 2 CCW, but does not gain the benefit of double-strength. The weapon states that it defers to the BRB ruling on Dreadnought close combat weapons, which only doubles the strength of a Walker.

While some would argue that this makes the Nemesis doomfist a wasted Codex entry, that's just not true, as the Dreadnoughts and the Venerable Dreadnoughts come standard with them. As they are Walkers, they would gain the benefits of the double-strength rule.

I'm not here to be a turd about anything, but I found this whole situation rather awkward...

Thoughts?

I agree that the dreadknight is s6, powerweapon/forceweapon/daemonbane, 2d6 armor pen for being a MC, and +1 attack for having 2 ccw. And thats not that bad at all--infact I would consider the doomfist on the dreadknight making him s10 to be very, VERY cheezy if it is ruled that way.

That said, it is still very confusing to have a weapon that makes one s6 unit (the dreads) s10, and another s6 unit (the knight) still s6. Regardless of GW's intensions, and regardless of how the doomfist gets played, the GK codex in general fails at being easy to understand.

Clearly intended for the doomfist to double str of a Dreadknight.

Long story short Wait for the FAQ and see what that says, since some think it is not clear.

I actually strongly disagree with you there deathreaper. If the doomfist is intended to double the str of the dreadknight, why is the hammer, that doubles the str of the dreadknight but also takes away a bonus attack for 2 ccw cost SO MUCH?

The situation is currently completely clear.

Also, if the doom fist does double strength then both the hammer and (especially) the sword are made redundant. If the fists leave the knight at S6 then both other weapon options are still worth considering.

Because it gives you the benefit of autostun.

Given the low number of attacks he has, the sword has a DEFINITE use when trying to mince infantry.

DeathReaper wrote:Clearly intended for the doomfist to double str of a Dreadknight.

Long story short Wait for the FAQ and see what that says, since it is not clear.

Clearly intended for the Doomfists not to Double str.

Otherwise, why would you pay 10 points to lose 1 attack(Daemonhammer)?

RAW, doomfist's do not double strength.

I've seen RAW discussions like this before.

The rules are not computer code. Just because "if Dreadknight !(vehicle.is_walker())" doesn't mean that GW has started giving out wargear that does nothing.

The sword IS very useful because the DK is WS4. There's no other way to get those rerolls. The hammer has the shake effect like any other thunder hammer, strikes at initiative, &c. Both also look good on the model -- which, if you haven't seen it, has hex connections to allow the fists and weapons to be swapped easily without magnets.

The final question will only be resolved by FAQ of course, but given the preponderance of dakka RAW chunder, I'd ignore any of these semantics.

If you are going to say the raw=s6 you can also say the raw=dk can't use the doomfists at all and that it is completely unarmed.

schadenfreude wrote:If you are going to say the raw=s6 you can also say the raw=dk can't use the doomfists at all and that it is completely unarmed.

No you can't. "A drednought close combat weapon is a power weapon and doubles the walker's strength in close combat (up to a maximum of 10)." You are correct in that it wouldn't gain any extra attacks from the fists though. And TBH, all MCs already ignore armour so it's a bit of a moot point, but it DOES grant the DK a force weapon. Always something eh?

Sorry but saying the doomfist doesn't give strength 10 is crazy talk. Why even add that it works as a dreadnought CCW if it didn't? it already ignores armour saves since it's a MC.

And why would 2 of them not confer an extra attack?

spongemonkee wrote:Sorry but saying the doomfist doesn't give strength 10 is crazy talk. Why even add that it works as a dreadnought CCW if it didn't? it already ignores armour saves since it's a MC.

Because they are force weapons, as I said in the post above yours.

spongemonkee wrote:And why would 2 of them not confer an extra attack?

Just realized they do, never mind.

To those who say the Hammer cost is justified by the stun effect, keep in mind that every other instance of a Powerfist-equivalent and Hammer-equivalent only has a difference of 5 points. GW values weapons/effects pretty consistently, especially within the same edition.

Also remember that there are Dreadnoughts in the codex, which explains the need for a DCCW. It would've been much easier if they had given him a Force Sword (which would look ridiculous on the model) or a brand-new fist weapon (which would take up more space for editing purposes), but they didn't.

brassangel wrote:I didn't take much time to search the forum for this topic,

You really should have. It's been done to death.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Because they are force weapons, as I said in the post above yours.

sorry mate still not seeing your point, there is a bit saying nemesis weapons are all force weapons in the nemesis weapons box, it then says seperately for the doomfist, they follow the rules for dready ccw's, which negate an enemie's armour save and give st 10. So logically the only reason it could possibly be mentioned since it's a MC and already ignores saves is for it to get the S10 bit. I know GW like a healthy smattering of ambiguous rules to keep things interesting, but they don't tend to add useless rules just for the hell of it.

Forgive me if I'm missing the point here but I can't even really see where there could be any misinterpretation.

You *can* play it as if Doomfists are nothing more than ordinary close combat weapons (since strictly speaking, Dreadknights shouldn't be able to even use Doomfists...seeing as they're not walkers). But you should be prepared to stop screwing your GK "friends" out of their S10 attacks when the FAQ is released.

spongemonkee wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Because they are force weapons, as I said in the post above yours.

sorry mate still not seeing your point, there is a bit saying nemesis weapons are all force weapons in the nemesis weapons box, it then says seperately for the doomfist, they follow the rules for dready ccw's, which negate an enemie's armour save and give st 10. So logically the only reason it could possibly be mentioned since it's a MC and already ignores saves is for it to get the S10 bit. I know GW like a healthy smattering of ambiguous rules to keep things interesting, but they don't tend to add useless rules just for the hell of it.

Forgive me if I'm missing the point here but I can't even really see where there could be any misinterpretation.

Because the rules for DCCW's discuss what happens when a unit has two of them (ie: the extra attack). And it's not a misinterpretation, it's poor writing if they intended it to be anything other than "follows the rules for Dreadnought CCW."

If it "follows the rules" of said weapon, then it gets everything, unless some exception is noted.

A Walker gets double S up to S10. A Dreadknight is not a Walker.

You're right...there shouldn't be any misinterpretation. He's S6 when left naked. Keep in mind, he also doesn't pay any points for those fists.

The points for equipment and special rules a model comes with naked is already factored into the base cost. A marine would cost less without the 3+ save

No matter what should I get a Dreadknight kit i fully plan to leave both fists on.

An FAQ is needed for the whole of the codex, 1 major bit needed is how personal teleporters interact witht the Dread Knight(leaving the verbiage in that the teleporters turn whatever takes them into jump infantry was a huge mistake in the final Dex, Interceptors are Flat Jump infantry in their unit type, and the only unit that can take them as an poption is the dread knight. In the playtest dex Strike squads were able to take teleporters, and interceptors were not a separate unit), among many others. I will play with the RAW until the FAQ comes out and goes completely against the RAW, then I will play with the new rules(likely adding some psybolt to units just to keep room for teleporters), I will leave the fists on the knight so i gain the extra attack, and arm it with a heavy incinerator and a Heavy Psycannon