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Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

yukishiro1 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I'm going to just toss it out here, but I think Argent Shroud is worse than people think for one reason: it only works on normal moves and advances. This means it can't work on disembarks as those are not normal moves.


A model disembarks within 3" and then may act normally for the rest of the turn, which is how units can still move after disembarking. There isn't a disembark move. Disembarking happens, then moving happens.

Disembark forces you to count as moving though, which isn't overwritten by Deeds Not Words as that only affects Normal Moves and Advancing.


Wrong; Deeds Not Words does overwrite disembarking, as long as you make a Normal Move or Advance after disembarking (which you always will). I explained this in detail above.

Nope. Still don't agree. Deeds not Words is too specific to Normal Moves and Advancing while Disembarking says you ALWAYS count as having moved until the end of the turn.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You're free to disagree, but you're wrong. As long as you make a Normal Move or Advance, then you count as stationary per the rule. Did you make a Normal Move or Advance? If yes, Deeds Not Words kicks in. It does not say "when you make a Normal Move or Advance, do not consider that particular move as being a move, but you still count as moving if you had any other reason to be considered moving." It says if you trigger it, you then count as stationary, period.

The disembark rule, unlike the reinforcements rule, does not say that it overrides any other rule that would allow you to count as Remaining Stationary, it just says you count as moving, even if you do not otherwise move. If it was included in the FAQ on Remains Stationary like Reinforcements and Redeployed units are, you would be right, but it isn't, so you are not right.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 21:35:55


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 bullyboy wrote:
I'm assuming that many will just ditch armour and run MSU sister AS squads anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I know most don't like the Minoris traits, but is Raging Fervour/Guided by Emperor's Will the best of the bunch?


I'm not expecting the list to be good, but I've been toying with a triple detachment list that runs Raging Fervor/Guided, Unshakable Vengeance/Guided, and Rites of Fire/Guided just to see what I can come up with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote:
We have more effective ways of dodging morale, you could autohit with any unit that's okay with moving up field as slow as the Triumph does and they would still be bad at melee, a worse miracle dice manipulation than the Dialogus has, 1 33% chance deny the witch and 5 total miracle dice over the course of 5 turns (6 if your opponent bothers to kill it before the end of the game).


While I agree with most of what you said, where are you getting a 1.33% chance of denying? We auto-deny on a 6 now regardless of what their roll actually is, and the Sacred Rite makes the Triumph deny on 5s. Irrespective of what our opponent's roll is, that's always a 1/6 or 1/3 chance whereas before we only denied on a 6 and only if they rolled a 5.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 22:28:04


 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

I want to point out that with how rare Miracle Dice have become, much less ones not tied to anything like being only used by a character with Beacon of Faith that the Miracle Die generation is more important than before, even if we get less of them over all. Probably worth considering if you want to go for Leap of Faith.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Leap of Faith is a trap unless you're using using SR IMO, miracle dice are too valuable to have to churn to score secondary points, especially when you basically have to churn them on your opponent's turn when they're generally far less valuable.
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

yukishiro1 wrote:
Leap of Faith is a trap unless you're using using SR IMO, miracle dice are too valuable to have to churn to score secondary points, especially when you basically have to churn them on your opponent's turn when they're generally far less valuable.

I obviously haven't tested it, but I feel like it's not a bad pick for OML since you can get access to more dice (less than SR, but it's not hard to have more).
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut




Question for the rules aficionados here. Could the Miracle dice generated with Beacon of Faith be discarded to turn another Miracle dice into a 6 for the Ebon Chalice or Perverfid Belief trait? Beacon of Faith says the dice can "only be used when your warlord performs an Act of Faith or uses a Miraculous ability." As written, it prevents me from using it for anything else, but does that include discarding the dice (which is never referred to as using a Miracle dice)? I highly doubt this loophole is intended, but with GW you almost never really know for sure what's an error and what is intentional. With miracle dice being limited as they are now, I was looking through the codex to see if there was anything more I could get out of my units and I found this. Curious to know what you guys think.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Even if you can't discard it, I don't see anything that would stop you discarding the _other_ dice and turning the rolled one into a 6. The result is the same in the end.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




shabadoit wrote:
Even if you can't discard it, I don't see anything that would stop you discarding the _other_ dice and turning the rolled one into a 6. The result is the same in the end.


It's not.

If the Beacon of Fatih Miracle dice cannot be discarded, then they are limited utility to only the warlord, whereas if they can be used to convert "normal" Miracle dice to 6's then those 6's can benefit the rest of the army.
Now if it is the other way round and you can only discard the normal Miracle dice to boost the Beacon of Fatih to 6's, then that is still less useful, as only the Warlord can take advantage of those 6's.

I suppose you can use always 6's for Beacon of Faith for a warlord that never misses or misfires with their plasma pistol. For the 40K universe, surviving one's own plasma weapon may be miraculous after all.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




The rules glossary at the back says:

'Discard (Miracle dice): If a rule says you must discard one or more miracle dice... Dicarding a Miracle dice does not count as having used a miracle dice for the purposes of any rules that are triggered by using a miracle dice to perform an act of faith.'

Now, it's up to you whether a limitation on who the dice can be used for counts as one of those rules?

Personally, I think it's completely legitimate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 14:15:38


 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

So the 40k app updated Paragons (courtesy of the Sisters Discord):

If you go into the unit entry proper it says "0" for points but the army builder costs the unit.



Celestine hasn't been fixed yet though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 15:14:30


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




That's because Celestine is working as intended
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




If the app conflicts with the codex, doesn't the codex still prevail? I demand I still get my 240 points per model, immune to damage 1 nonsense!
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Iracundus wrote:
shabadoit wrote:
Even if you can't discard it, I don't see anything that would stop you discarding the _other_ dice and turning the rolled one into a 6. The result is the same in the end.


It's not.

If the Beacon of Fatih Miracle dice cannot be discarded, then they are limited utility to only the warlord, whereas if they can be used to convert "normal" Miracle dice to 6's then those 6's can benefit the rest of the army.
Now if it is the other way round and you can only discard the normal Miracle dice to boost the Beacon of Fatih to 6's, then that is still less useful, as only the Warlord can take advantage of those 6's.


Ah yeah - you're right. I can see where the confusing comes in, I think the Glossary actually supports discard being a 'use' in all the non-mentioned scenarios though, and the wording of Beacon seems to suggest that too, so that would prevent it being used to boost a dice on another unit (but allow it to boost one for the warlord herself).
Not saying that it couldn't be read the other way, but I think it's a stretch.
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

yukishiro1 wrote:
If the app conflicts with the codex, doesn't the codex still prevail? I demand I still get my 240 points per model, immune to damage 1 nonsense!

App reflects FAQ changes so no.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




There is no FAQ change at this point. Are you saying the app is the actual real source of the rules, not the codex (with any FAQs)? Can you point me to some statement that says that? The app has been "wrong" a lot in the past in terms of it having typos and errors, should we have been playing with the app's version of the rules all along instead of assuming they were errors and going by what the actual documents themselves say?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 17:04:08


 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

yukishiro1 wrote:
There is no FAQ change at this point. Are you saying the app is the actual real source of the rules, not the codex (with any FAQs)? Can you point me to some statement that says that?

Oh knock it off. There is no point in engaging in pointless cheesedickery when we have clear proof of actual intent.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm not arguing about this particular point, I'm genuinely curious about which is the real source of rules since you seemed to say it's the app. If you don't know the answer to the question that's fine, just say so (or don't answer at all if you prefer).

   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm not arguing about this particular point, I'm genuinely curious about which is the real source of rules since you seemed to say it's the app. If you don't know the answer to the question that's fine, just say so (or don't answer at all if you prefer).


I'm saying that the codex is not the final source of rules. Yes, we don't have an FAQ yet but the app has been pretty good about reflecting the FAQ. Besides, non-English copies of the codex reportedly list Paragons as 80ppm which means any hope for them to cost more than a landraider in exchange for being immune to D1 is a lost cause.

It's GW's official app, not a third party source, just get over it already and accept that the way we assumed it will work is the the way it works.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




What part of "I'm not arguing this particular example" didn't you get? Of course they're 80 points, of course they don't ignore 1 damage.

My question was about your claim that the app is the official rules source, not the Codex with its FAQs. It sounds like you don't have any actual support for that claim, which I guess answers my question in a roundabout way.
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

yukishiro1 wrote:
What part of "I'm not arguing this particular example" didn't you get? Of course they're 80 points, of course they don't ignore 1 damage.

My question was about your claim that the app is the official rules source, not the Codex with its FAQs. It sounds like you don't have any actual support for that claim, which I guess answers my question in a roundabout way.

It's sold on the grounds of being an official rules source, so where are you getting thus idea that it's not?

All I said was that the app tends to reflect FAQs and you started trying to debunk the app as being a place to get rules. To quote GW's own site the app is "ALL YOUR RULES IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND" which is a far cry from your claim that it isn't a source of rules.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The question isn't whether it's official, the question is how you resolve a case where the app says one thing and the Codex + FAQ says something else. Does the app prevail, or does the Codex with any FAQs prevail?

There have been multiple instances of the app not having complete info, not allowing legal combinations from the Codex, etc. We've always resolved that as the app being wrong, with the Codex + FAQs being the official rules. I was curious if we were wrong to do that, and if we should have been treating those things as illegal choices until the app was updated to allow them. It sounds like the answer is you don't know, which is fine, though it would have saved everybody a bunch of time if you had just said so the first time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 17:29:26


 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

yukishiro1 wrote:
The question isn't whether it's official, the question is how you resolve a case where the app says one thing and the Codex + FAQ says something else. Does the app prevail, or does the Codex with any FAQs prevail?

There have been multiple instances of the app not having complete info, not allowing legal combinations from the Codex, etc. We've always resolved that as the app being wrong, with the Codex + FAQs being the official rules. I was curious if we were wrong to do that, and if we should have been treating those things as illegal choices until the app was updated to allow them. It sounds like the answer is you don't know, which is fine, though it would have saved everybody a bunch of time if you had just said so the first time.

Sounded more like you were trying to attack me for bring up that the app had updated rules and debunk it as legitimate source of rules which was why I was up in arms.

Look, I shared this because it clearly communicates intent and confirms something we assumed. If you want to wait for the FAQ it'll be out in July.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 17:34:34


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I can't control if you interpret a question as an attack, but it certainly wasn't my intent.

I do think the app is questionable as a reliable rules source, and except in a case like this where it's obvious which is correct, I would not take the app's word over what the Codex and FAQs actually say if there is a conflict.
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Italy

Looking over the updated point costs the Immolator has me scratching my head. I have one since I've always liked the idea of a transport with a mighty flamer but it seems very expensive.

When would you recommend taking the Immolator over a Rhino?
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Looking over the updated point costs the Immolator has me scratching my head. I have one since I've always liked the idea of a transport with a mighty flamer but it seems very expensive.

When would you recommend taking the Immolator over a Rhino?

Not really, but I have never have given a lot of stock to the Immolator.
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




It's amazing how people are holding up the app as some form of holy grail of rules. It's not even close to BS, and that's a free app done by half the staff on their time off!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Immolator is absurdly overcosted, it should be like 20-30 points cheaper than it is.
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Looking over the updated point costs the Immolator has me scratching my head. I have one since I've always liked the idea of a transport with a mighty flamer but it seems very expensive.

When would you recommend taking the Immolator over a Rhino?


Honestly to me the order goes: Rhino, then Outflank everything, then footslog, then Immolator.


 
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Italy

So essentially never take the Immolator. That's a shame, it's a fun unit but man that cost is very high.
   
 
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