Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys, I run Blood Angels, and I want to improve my game. I was hoping I could get other people's perspectives on BA weaknesses so i can better either overcome for their weaknesses or compensate for them by improving elsewhere. I'm really basically planning on running a DoA assault list in the future, but now I have a small core of Assault and DC with my Tacticals as fire support

What I'm looking for is basically this (stolen from my buddy's thread): what are weaknesses the Blood Angels have in general? Are there viable ways of countering them? What can make a list crash and burn? Anything you'd like to add that Blood Angels can't do that well? I'm really just looking for any known threats.

Jump Angels are sitting ducks for a turn if you deep strike. You can run to spread out, but that gives up your shooting. One good AP3 blast, and you're in a world of hurt.

In short, they're power armor. They have good mobility, but limited long range fire power and no real durablity.

Buut, a good DoA player will ensure that his troops are never sitting ducks by ensuring, with appropriate use of meltas and vanguard vets, that the most painful units are either tied up in combat, dead or shaken. Obviously, some times your luck runs badly, and it doesn't work out. But DoA can cover that weakness pretty well.

For me, blood angels main weakness are power weapons. A DoA list NEEDS combat, and they're great in it. However, BA are much better against large amounts of weak troops than small units of power weapons. Incubi, Termies with lightning claws, grey knights with halberds, are all really nasty for DoA to handle.

I think that solid BA lists don't really have weaknesses....and need to get outplayed by a better general who is *also* using a good list to win.

BA generals losing games should probably look at their list and tactics because any weaknesses are probably inherent to their generalship.

This is opposed to other armies that have built in weaknesses that can't really be avoided.

I agree with Dash. When I lose, it is normally because of 1-3 things. I make a bad tactical decision, I brought a unit that was a complete points sink, or bad dice.

Nothing that could not have been avoided... well maybe not the dice.

Polonius wrote:Jump Angels are sitting ducks for a turn if you deep strike. You can run to spread out, but that gives up your shooting. One good AP3 blast, and you're in a world of hurt.

In short, they're power armor. They have good mobility, but limited long range fire power and no real durablity.

How about the Stormraven? You can DS from there with DoA (essentially, no dangerous terrain and more accurate deployment and I believe they are assault vehicle so you can assault with them IIRC).

As an aside: How should Tacticals be used? I know the role of most of my army, but with tacticals how should I run with them? A statc position in cover, covering the assault squads' advance? Advancing themselves to enter CC? (I mainly play against 'Nids, CSM and IG)

Dashofpepper has it on the head.

Essentially BA have the weapons, toughness and mobility to potentially answer anything. You have to actually have the options to answer them in your army, and if you have the answers you then have to be able to use them.

If you have an inferior armybook/codex/whatever then you will struggle to win against them.

Last game I play vs. BA I was playing tau - my opponent ended up feeding me a group of jump angels and two dreads piecemeal - I shot the hell out of the jump angels before they got into CC and the dreads only got off one shooting round each before I railed them to pieces - moral of the story, if you're deep striking only one unit a turn, don't drop them into a hornet's nest unless they really are expendable.

I have a BA list that is transforming in to a DoA list more and more the whole time. Lately I've been playing against Grey Knights a lot and gotten my ass handed back to several times. Any suggestions how to play against power/terminatorarmour based GK-lists with autocannon dreads?

Melta's and Plasma make short work of Termies

I think trying to up your game by looking at your weaknesses is kinda looking at it backwards.

Best to examine your armies strengths and capitalize on them as much as possible, that generally leads to your armies weaknesses to be compensated for automatically. And then a good player will utilize the advantages of their army to exploit the weaknesses of their opponents.

Blood Angels are by far my favorite Marine chapter to play. I have been playing them since the codex came out (my second BA army actually) and still haven't lost the desire to play them. The variety of builds and their aggressive, risk taking nature make them a blast to play. I have played them for a long time and tried a great many variety of builds, and in my opinion, these are what Blood Angels do best:

1. Mobile firepower - IMHO, their biggest advantage. You trip, and you can get massed Lascannons that can move around cover and target things in the open. This is especially useful in the MSU-light transport spam of competitive play. Auto-las predators, Las-plas razorbacks, storm ravens, Land Raiders, all excel at this. On top of this, you can even toss in the odd Land Speeder or two as well. I am a big fan of Typhon speeders as well for even more long range, mobile, anti-light vehicle.

2. The best Marine assault elements in the game. We have a bunch of awesome tolls to beat the crap out of things in assault. The only armies that field equal or better assault units are Orks and Black Templars, but their assault elements are usually limited to a few choices. We have massed access to Furious Charge, and several assault elements that simply win, provided that can get there. Blood Talon Dreadnoughts, Death Company, buffed Assault Terminators, Librarian Dreadnoughts, full assault squads, Honor Guard, Sanguinary Guard, multiple high initiative-high weaponskill characters, the list goes on. We are not an assault army, per se, but we can combine scary firepower with a few units that can break combat, and just juggling when and what units to commit to a combat, especially to finish things off from a round of shooting, is the key Blood Angels path to success.

3. High AV armies. More then any other MSU army, Blood Angels can field a wide assortment and quantity of AV 12 through 14. Massed Predators, Vindicators, Land Raiders, Storm Ravens, etc. can be something that you can exploit. And even though it isn't a big deal for some armies (like Dark Eldar) it can be a huge deal for others (like Grey Knights, IG, Orks, etc.)

There are more, but these are generally the highlights.

So essentially being relatively hard to deal with at range, having a very good shooting game, and strategic use of a few very good assault units is the Blood Angels game. They are an aggressive army, that can play very reactivately or offensively, but always with the aim to kill. They are not a pure assault army though, so playing them as such generally leads to fail. Like all standard marine armies, they field a good mix of shooting and assault. Whereas Codex Marines are more shooting and more about counter assault elements, and Space Wolves is about durability and being able to take a hit as well as give it out, Blood Angels are all about tamed aggression and proper assault timing.

They usually rank below Space Wolves because of Space Wolves generally unnecessary price breaks, but also a reason for that is the lack of no brainer choices in the Blood Angels codex. The diversity of builds and their aggressive nature keep me coming back, and they can be an awesome competitive army as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vasara wrote:I have a BA list that is transforming in to a DoA list more and more the whole time. Lately I've been playing against Grey Knights a lot and gotten my ass handed back to several times. Any suggestions how to play against power/terminatorarmour based GK-lists with autocannon dreads?

DoA doesn't do well against Grey Knights because Warp Quake can really mess with your ability to get the drop on them, and with that out of the picutre, you are forced to jump in front of their extremely good at killing you guns.

Grey Knights hoever, do not like BA high AV builds because they will struggle to cause significant damage to those things at range. And as a rule, Blood Angels assault is better then Grey Knight assault. Blood Talons mulch most Grey Knight squads.

I like DoA, but mech angels is far more competitive.

Elector wrote:

As an aside: How should Tacticals be used? I know the role of most of my army, but with tacticals how should I run with them? A statc position in cover, covering the assault squads' advance? Advancing themselves to enter CC? (I mainly play against 'Nids, CSM and IG)

They should not be used. When you think about it for awhile, a Bolter is not as good as an extra CC attack, and the only other thing Tactical Marines have going for them are the heavy weapons. Since Assault Marines can take cheap Razorbacks, that isn't a sufficient advantage. Being forced to take a 10 man squad really hurts them too.

I agree with the statement that Mech BA is the strongest. One of my favorite things has yet to be mentioned: The Baal Predator. This means Blood Angels can spam hard-to-kill vehicles like no other army besides IG, and BA vehicles are fast. That's the trade-off; mech IG has deadlier shooting, but mech BA is more flexible and can handle CC.

A Bolter is better than a close combat attack at times. And that time is any time you are not in close combat. Longer Range, does not give the opportunity to be attacked back in order to be used, and against light armor guys, it ignores armor.

To use the extra CC attack, you have to give your opponent the chance to hit back, and they will always get an armor save.

jbunny wrote:A Bolter is better than a close combat attack at times. And that time is any time you are not in close combat. Longer Range, does not give the opportunity to be attacked back in order to be used, and against light armor guys, it ignores armor.

To use the extra CC attack, you have to give your opponent the chance to hit back, and they will always get an armor save.

While trying to avoid an all out debate of bolter vs CC, with BA this needs clarifying. Having determined that BA shooting is probably not going to win the day (or simply be better than the shooting of IG, Dark Eldar, other marines, etc.) BA strategies should be set up to minimize that "time not in close combat." Having fast transports/DoA helps tremendously in this regard, and with assault being such a major component of many armies, closing the distance should not be a worry for any decent BA player. Second, the "attack back" argument obviously applies to your opponent's next round of shooting, and peltering leman russes and chimera front armor first and then getting splattered by S8 AP3 pie plates wont be pretty. Additionally, having access to Furious Charge in some cases and just plain old I4 means attacking back shouldn't be a problem (with the sole exception maybe being Nids...but BA has easy access to FNP anyways so that balances things out.) Also when only 4 codexes of the many are, to my count, are overwhelmingly "light armor guys," and the plethora of power armor/MEQ-ness means your bolters won't be mowing down people. Plus, if you NEED effective shooting, just knock off the jump packs and buy 35 point less cheap las/plas razorbacks or others...although this tactic can iffy. Bottom line having assault troops as TROOPS is an enormous benefit that should be reaped by BA players every time, and at the close range you'll get with effective maneuvering, a few rounds of bolt pistols should compensate for the loss of the precious bolt gun.

BA weakenesses? AP 3...yeah seems obvious but the thing I'd use the most of against the Sons of Sanguinius. not much you can do to get around this unless ur running lots of termies, but as the wise comments above point out, mech spam should mitigate the consequences. also sad is, while Mephiston and co. rock as HQs come, force/power weapon happy armies that have high initiative (Death cults & GK force halberds) can put a damper on those five wounds. however, other high Initiative armies like the two eldars usually wont have an easy time getting thru power armor or even the occasional Furious Charge. IMHO none of these mitigate the OP'd nature of the Blood Angels and the massive variety of effective options you have with which to counter such weakenesses.

I played a game today, 2v2 500pts, BA and Eldar vs IG and Orks, it was interesting, and it reinforced a few things:

Tactical squads aren't worth the points, given their weakness (compared to some other BA units) in CC.

Apparently a Leman Russ can fire an Ordnance Battle Cannon and move, it took out 40 points of Death Company.

A Reclusiarch with the Sanguinary Priest FNP bubble and awesome die rolling can withstand roughly 180 attacks from ork boyz. It was fun.

BA has several good units I want to try out eventually, but I hink I'm going to reel the shooting back a bit and push assault some more.

DoA has a lot of weaknesses
BA dont have so many

BA's greatest weakness is that a lot of bad players pick red marines. Bad players plague all the armies but I think it hurts BA the most.

Bad players pick Blood Angels the most??? Try the Ultramarines *cough*Ultrasmurfs*cough*. But I am with you that too many players pick the flavour of the month army, how bout some independence and going for some of the older armies? Necrons, Tyranids, Chaos Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Eldar, basically anything not Space Marine or whatever is the most recent army.
Sorry about pulling this slightly off topic.
My opinion on DoA is that it's not the best, easily counteracted with effective deployment and Grey Knights, as well as having a turn to shoot up half your army. When only half your army is there, it's alot easier. (if i understand the rule correctly, i don't actually play BA)


EDIT: Spelling and forgot to put my point in

DoA lets you have only 1d6 for sctater in deep strike with jump packs, and lets you re-roll your reserve roll to see if they even come in.

I chose Blood Angels back when their "codex" was in 2 issues of White Dwarf. Not exactly flavour of the month. I have some CS but where I play, Eldar, IG, CSM and Tyranids are the most commonly played. Orks are neat (I have the Orks from the AoBR) but for not I go BA because of how much $ I need to sped to get enough Ork boyz for a good game.

How about bringing in my jump troops in Stromravens? Gives them some protection, it's an assault vehicle, so I can get stuck in quickly, and deploys them as if they deep-striked (1d6 less scatter).

BA still lose to dedicated CC units point for point. THSS termies, for example, beat pretty heavily on everything in the BA book. So BA have above average cc, but besides their own termies I would not call them a CC army but a hybrid army.

Vasara wrote:I have a BA list that is transforming in to a DoA list more and more the whole time. Lately I've been playing against Grey Knights a lot and gotten my ass handed back to several times. Any suggestions how to play against power/terminatorarmour based GK-lists with autocannon dreads?

IMHO, I would use something along the lines of a Storm Raven (MM/PC) loaded with Assault Termies (4x LC, TH/SS) with a Sang Priest or VV/Sang Guard w/Dante. blast the snot out of them with high AP rounds and assault with power weapon/high initiative units.

Also, I have found that Blood Talons on a Furioso make short work of Termies.

I feel that list redundancy (aka spamming) is the most effective way to defeat armies like GK (IMO). That way if one of your units is obliterated there is a second one to come in and finish the job as effectivly as the first. It is all about Risk Reduction.

a Melee BA army will have a weakness to an army that has lots of Power Weapons because you lose access to your FnP(you are running Sang Priests right?)


like GKs with Halberds. they will go before you even if you charge and will ignore your armor and FnP.


aside from that, you will do very well if you build a good list.

Seemed like orks easily beat down my Death Company from sheer numbers though.

Ive found that Assault Marines are really mushy, which I know is stupid as they are just as well armoured as normal marines, but They draw fire on the charge, and you can always get into cover to save them.

Elector wrote:How about the Stormraven? You can DS from there with DoA (essentially, no dangerous terrain and more accurate deployment and I believe they are assault vehicle so you can assault with them IIRC).

Funny that no one has jumped on this yet.

First, a Storm Raven does not have the DoA rule. So it scatters as normal if you DS it. The guys inside do if they have JPs, but that doesn't help the SR.

Second, being an assault vehicle doesn't allow it to override the prohibition on DSing and assaulting.


----------

Anyway, back on topic, BAs are good. I guess the main "weakness" I guess I might identify is that one of your best unique strengths is the Sanguinary Priests. But many of the weapons people use to kill SMs anyway deny FNP (S8+, power weapons, AP2 plasma). So while your guys shrug off light shooting/regular assault attacks even better than regular SM, they can all of a sudden start dying surprisingly fast against the right weapons. You need to be able to assess the threats in your opponent's army and gauge what you can ignore/bounce and what you need to use cover against/avoid in HtH or conversely jump on in HtH ASAP.

Mannahnin wrote:

Elector wrote:How about the Stormraven? You can DS from there with DoA (essentially, no dangerous terrain and more accurate deployment and I believe they are assault vehicle so you can assault with them IIRC).

Funny that no one has jumped on this yet.

First, a Storm Raven does not have the DoA rule. So it scatters as normal if you DS it. The guys inside do if they have JPs, but that doesn't help the SR.

Second, being an assault vehicle doesn't allow it to override the prohibition on DSing and assaulting.

I agree, Though you could just keep the stormraven on the board from the start and as long as you don't move flat out when you disembark you can assault, and you can drag a dread up to support them. Thats how id play it anyway :-)

i think he meant deepstrike out of it?

anyways...

I agree with devianID....

I'll chime in again on something that has been mentioned a few times here, DoA lists just aren't so great, especially when you are playing people that have faced them before. You will be taking a lot of shooting before getting into combat. Also, BA assault squads are... not really able to live up to their namesake. As assault troops, they are on the low end of good compared to any specialists out there. They really are nothing special over a tac squad.

BA really shows it's strength when you run them mech, fast vehicles all over the place and access to up to six AV13 predators is where you will find your most competitive builds for a tournament environment.

Mech BA is defeated by the same methods and tactics that can defeat any other competitive mechanized army.

DOA is most often defeated by the BA player. DOA is can be very unforgiving if the BA player makes mistakes that their opponent capitalizes on. DOA does have some very serious strengths, and in a heavy mech tournament environment it can really catch people off guard as their lists will most often be optimized to kill mech. The Achilles heel of the DOA list is the priests, take them out and the army looses the bubble of FNP and FC, but in order to do that you need to outplay the DOA player.

frgsinwntr wrote:i think he meant deepstrike out of it?

anyways...

I agree with devianID....

I meant Deep strike out of it using the Skies of Blood rule (can dismbark using this rule even if it goes flatout, though upon reading it it says you can't assault using this rule, so you'd have to dis-embark normally to assault. I meant I would have it deploy normally then get to where I want to go to assault with less risk.

But yeah, assault squads have the whole "let's focus-fire that squad to oblivion" issue, which really hurt me last game. i'll have to look into this, because the assault units and jump packs are a major reason why I run BA...

I think DoA works well when applied effectively. I also think that when you compare RAS to other armies TROOPS choices which is what should be done, they are some of the most effective units available. They make up for a lack of ranged firepower by giving the unit access to two special weapons and have some of the best manouvreability in the game. Effective DoA is not DS and hope for the best, it makes use of cover and is flexible based on the game situation. If you're throwing your RAS at opponents elite CC options, you need to change your list.

Marines always struggle against AP3, most BA firepower is short-medium range. The biggest issue I have faced with DoA is castles. Good opponents look at RAS with JP and straight out castle, thankfully we have Flanking Baals and redeemers.